Puerto Rico statehood referendum - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14809450
neopagan wrote:I don't get the "historical injustice bit," the Spanish American War may have been unjustified on the part of the US, but Puerto Ricans have benefited ever since. That is unless one thinks Spanish colonial status would have been better. Anyone remember Franco? The referendum should also ask if the voters want the territory given back to Spain. Anyway, who would want to mess up a perfectly balanced fifty star national flag?

The Puerto Rican people struggled for almost a century to be free of Spanish colonialism. Google 'Grito de Lares' if you don't believe me. And just when it looked as though they had finally succeeded, in 1898, the US swooped in and scooped them up. It is almost certain that, even if the Spanish-American War had never happened, Puerto Rico would have broken away from the Spanish Empire, as Cuba did. The difference is that Cuba managed to break away from US hegemony too, whereas Puerto Rico didn't. It is in this sense that I referred to Puerto Rico as "a failed Cuba".

Beren wrote:Wow, you take this issue really seriously. :lol:

Despite my jokiness, I'm actually a deeply serious person. I take every issue seriously. I am, after all, a Scot, and am therefore, deep down in my bones, a dour Calvinist. Life is a serious fucking business, and the world and our interactions with it must be taken very seriously, if we are not to burn in hellfire for all eternity. Of course I take the issue of Puerto Rico seriously, just as I take every political and moral issue seriously. Who can escape the judgement of God?

You've got to imagine me wearing black Puritan clothing, with a sour face, saying things like "We'rrre aaall dooomed!" in a Scottish brogue. Marxism is just my particular sect of Scottish Calvinism.

Beren wrote:Puerto Rico doesn't want to be independent because they don't want to be like either Cuba or the Dominican Republic, which would likely happen if they seceded. They want to join the US as a state and they think they could be something like Hawaii, but they fail in that. I'm sure Decky also doesn't understand why they don't want to be like Cuba. :lol:

They may have been led astray from the eternal truth of socialism by the capitalist heretics in America, but that doesn't mean I should not try to guide the lost sheep back into the fold. In fact, it is my duty to do so. As things are, the Puerto Ricans have been seduced by welfare payments and the carrot of easy emigration to the US into accepting the loss of their national sovereignty and the loss of control over their own destiny. They are now stuck in a constitutional and political limbo, a kind of 'Twilight Zone' (or Purgatory, if you will) in which they are neither an independent nation nor a US state, but are merely a self-governing colony. They are US citizens, yet they cannot vote in American elections nor have any political influence over American decision-making concerning their own island. If they wish to be a free and sovereign people (and I admit that the majority do not at the present time), then they must make some hard choices.

Rugoz wrote:Maybe 50-100 years ago, I find it highly unlikely that the US wouldn't let Puerto Rico go if it wanted.

And I find that a rather naive viewpoint. Puerto Rico is still a strategically vital outpost in the Caribbean, which is the key to exerting influence over the rest of Latin America, which the US still regards as its own 'backyard'. They're not going to let it go in any foreseeable future.

Rugoz wrote:In what way is Puerto Rico more of a failure than Cuba? Certainly not economically.

You clearly haven't been paying attention then. Why do you think so many Puerto Ricans emigrated to the US to become 'New Yoricans' and live in rat-infested slums while working minimum-wage jobs? And it may have escaped your notice, but Puerto Rico is now effectively bankrupt. And no, unlike the big banks in Wall Street or the big car manufacturers, the US isn't going to bail them out. Puerto Rico, unlike the fat cats on Wall Street, is clearly not "too big to fail".
#14809451
Beren wrote:Sure, they would let them go, then the creditors would bankrupt Puerto Rico. And whom could they ask for help while losing U.S. citizenship?


Puerto Rico has had trade surpluses for the past 15 years, a debt-to-gdp ratio of 68%, a projected budget deficit of 2% of GDP in 2017 and a primary surplus. Frankly at first sight it's difficult to see where the fucking problem is. Looks better than the US government :lol:

Potemkin wrote:And it may have escaped your notice, but Puerto Rico is now effectively bankrupt.


Countries can recover from bankruptcies fast. The problem is that bankruptcy is often correlated with more fundamental economic issues.
#14809457
Countries can recover from bankruptcies fast. The problem is that bankruptcy is often correlated with more fundamental economic issues.

Indeed. Remind me again why you think Puerto Rico is economically more successful than Cuba; I've forgotten.... :eh:
#14809768
Potemkin wrote:Indeed. Remind me again why you think Puerto Rico is economically more successful than Cuba; I've forgotten.... :eh:


How hard can it be to look it up yourself? After all you made the claim of Puerto Rico being a "failed Cuba".

GDP per capita (nominal, 2013):

Cuba: 6'789
Puerto Rico: 28'703

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY. ... view=chart

GDP per capita (PPP, 2013):

Cuba: 20'658
Puerto Rico: 35'023

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY. ... view=chart

Cuba's main exports: Nickel, cane sugar, cigars, fuel, beverages, metallic ores, fish, cement, oil and thyroid extract.
Puerto Rico's main exports: Pharmaceuticals, medical equipment, computers, apparel, canned tuna, rum, beverage and concentrates.

Beren wrote:That might help a bit then: [url=https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/05/business/dealbook/puerto-rico-debt.html?_r=0]


Looking at the fundamentals the currently high bond yields don't seem to be justified, I look at it when I got time.
#14826676
eric1 wrote:If Puerto Rico were smart it would opt for independence.

In June, 97% voted for statehood not independence.
#14826679
To be fair everyone against statehood decided to just boycott the vote in order to legitimize it so who knows what the actual vote would've been. Personally I think they should be ignored if they didn't feel the need to participate in their democracy but it's up to congress and it's not particularly promising.
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