Islamic world condemns liberal mosque in Berlin - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14817648
ThirdTerm wrote:Whoever she is, Seyran Ates did the right thing. But the mosque may be an open prayer room which welcomes everyone rather than a sanctioned mosque approved by local imams. Seyran Ates is a German lawyer and Muslim feminist of Kurdish descent.



Interesting article. Sound similar to the anti gay rhetoric coming from the Christian church. It's a divided issue, but if the good people of Berlin can welcome the acceptance of change, I can imagine more Liberal prayer rooms opening up around Europe. And this could advance acceptance of people with different faiths to ourselves in our society.
#14817649
Oxymandias wrote:@47 Knucklehead

*cough*Islamic Golden Age*cough*

They have advanced their religion. It's just that it all fell apart after the Mongols came out of nowhere and destroyed all those advances. The Middle Eastern world was actually on it's way to become a secular aristocracy as according to Plato's ideal government which would've been interesting. Had the Islamic Golden Age continued, we would've seen many experiments in Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Syria, Arabia, and Morocco of different forms of governments including democracy (which probably would've started in Arabia given how tribal it already was). It got to the point where atheists can call them selves atheist in public and where not interpreting the Quran using logic and reasoning would've gotten you killed.


There were even rumours that they were launching spacecraft to the moon and were mastering quantum entanglement.
#14817654
@The Sabbaticus
Actually since you mentioned it, that indeed was the first time in which astronomy was revived and expanded massively and much of the scientific basis in the world was placed. Thats the time when the scientific method was first established. Even the theory of gravity was established back then.
#14817667
GandalfTheGrey wrote:translation: frollein really really hopes they don't have a snowball's chance in hell.


It's an objective observation. The founder of the mosque has already gotten death threats, and reported that several members have left for fear of their lives in an article of Die Welt today. I don't have to "hope" for anything here.

The point here is - liberal reform has to start somewhere, and as anaswad says, they should be encouraged not laughed at. The truth is, the right wing naysayers like frollein are just as much a hindrance to the emergence of these liberal reform movements as the Islamists - when they pop up in the west like in this case. And of course that is the intention. They are not merely sceptical - they are actively trying to sabotage them.


I'm a hindrance? I don't threaten them with murder or cry about the "defilement of true Islam." But hey, no surprise that my posting on this forum is a bigger threat to "liberal Islam" for you than the violence from the "true muslims" already underway. :lol: :knife:
#14817681
Oxymandias wrote:Exactly what happened to other religions? They're still alive and well. We're actually seeing an increase of religion in the West rather than a decrease contrary to popular belief.

I bet you would indoctrinate your children as well with your own ideology.


- Where do you get that nonsense from? Religiosity has been declining in the West (and elsewhere) for decades, even in the US. Just two sources:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2016/0 ... exception/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/phil-zuck ... 89398.html

- All education is indoctrination to some degree. I don't think our children should be taught that there's an invisible man in the sky who sends us to heaven or hell and has set moral guidelines for us in books that are 1000+ years old and contain all kinds of disgusting shit. No way. Religion must be rendered irrelevant for mankind to progress.
#14817718
anasawad wrote:@The Sabbaticus
Actually since you mentioned it, that indeed was the first time in which astronomy was revived and expanded massively and much of the scientific basis in the world was placed. Thats the time when the scientific method was first established. Even the theory of gravity was established back then.


That's what I'm saying. Newton got his hands on a cache of Islamic scientific texts hidden in an ancient q'uran and then took all the credit. The general public just doesn't know that science literally means Islam. During the great Syces-Picot plundering of the Middle East the Western powers took off with vast numbers of ancient q'urans. And today they're tirelessly mining them for scientific insights, resulting in the LCD-screen, inkjet printer, micro-brewery beer design and the use of communication protocols in teledildonics.
#14817719
The Sabbaticus wrote:That's what I'm saying. Newton got his hands on a cache of Islamic scientific texts hidden in an ancient q'uran and then took all the credit. The general public just doesn't know that science literally means Islam. During the great Syces-Picot plundering of the Middle East the Western powers took off with vast numbers of ancient q'urans. And today they're tirelessly mining them for scientific insights, resulting in the LCD-screen, inkjet printer, micro-brewery beer design and the use of communication protocols in teledildonics.


:lol:
#14817720
@The Sabbaticus
Newton theory and work had a good part of it indeed being based on previous works of Muslim scientists.
If we took gravity for example, the first studies of gravity, its mentioning and how it works along with other topics in astronomy were first done by
Abu Al-raihan Baironi in the 10th century. Followed by Edrisi in more details in 11th century and then Al-khazeni in the 12th century.
Ofcourse followed by Newton in 17th century.

If you actually did bother to do some research (which you didn't and probably wont) you'd know that Arab and Persian scientists has made major contributions in the middle ages that their effects have lasted until today and paved the way for major discoveries based on their work in all fields of science.

And in the modern age scientists from the middle east still do major contributions to the scientific community.
You should know that since you're in Europe and European countries specially France have been inviting the majority of them to go work there.

And fun fact. For the everyday techs. You can contribute a good portion of the discoveries in modern physics and its foundations to Rammal Rammal a Lebanese scientists who has an award after hem in Europe and Mustafa Mashrafeh an Egyptian scientist. And in matter of optics, the very basis of optics and even the early models of cameras were put together in the middle east in Egypt in the 11th century.
#14817721
Potemkin wrote:But Muslims have advanced their religion in the past 500-800 years - they've advanced it towards Salafism. As I keep saying, the Muslim world has already had its Reformation and they are currently engaged in their Thirty Years War, which has spilled out from the Middle East to encompass the entire planet, as one would expect in our globalised age.

This can't be overstated. The Christian Reformation was hardly a liberal hippie movement, even though people nowadays seem to think it was. Its entire point was that the Catholic Church wasn't pious enough, and wasn't strict enough about enforcing the literal truth of the Bible.* :lol: The eventual growth of the Enlightenment was definitely an unforeseen (and unhoped for) consequence.

Long story short: Osama bin Laden and John Calvin really aren't that different.

*Rather amusingly, Luther argued in 1518 that Europeans should not resist the invading Ottoman Empire because Muslims were a scourge sent to punish Christians for their impiety. He later revised this view, but it helps demonstrate the point quite nicely!
#14817795
@Rugoz

Hm, I could be wrong. I believe a saw a psychological study on an increase of religion in the West along time ago, or maybe that was a worldwide study which would've probably included the Middle East.

Ok? I already said I agreed with that sentiment before simply put however, an old book isn't powerful enough to brainwash a bunch of children. Eventually they will grow up and move on from religion. The only way religion can have power is if politics is added onto it which is why religion is more influencial in places where there is a state religion and less in places with no state religion. @neopagan's ideology can be considered a religion equally as bad as traditional religion as both of them encourage indoctrination and absolute submission to the dogma. Both are wrong in many respects and both say and encourage terrible and horrific things and can potentially allow for horrific and terrible actions towards other human beings.

@neopagan

?

It's also just as vague as religion. All you need is a book, a charismatic leader, and a name (call the religion Neopaganism) and you're all set. Of course @neopagan is the least charismatic person I know but technically it would be religion, just not a successful one.
#14817830
Frollein wrote:It's an objective observation. The founder of the mosque has already gotten death threats, and reported that several members have left for fear of their lives in an article of Die Welt today. I don't have to "hope" for anything here.


You could have taken another perspective and noted the very emergence of this mosque - in such an environment - is itself encouraging. If your world-view was to be believed, the mosque surely would have been descended upon by frothing-at-the-mouth Islamists and torched the moment it opened - and all its members beheaded. And yet it stands, and according to your own article faces no serious threat to its existence by Islamists or anyone else. Almost all the criticism you could find of it was non-violent. You actually had to dig pretty deep to find actual violent threats against it.

Like I said you could have taken an entirely different outlook and commended the emergence of these movements (this is certainly not the only one), and implored the naysayers to get on board, and applauding the opportunity this creates for Islam. You could even have noted that there was no meaningful threat to its existence by Islamists, and this itself was encouraging. Instead of insisting that the (rather predictable) criticisms of these movements must necessarily mean there's not a snowball's chance in hell for them. But you can't countenance such a possibility because it destroys your world view - and so you pretend you are merely "observing" instead of actively creating a narrative for yourself to satisfy your rather sick desire to see liberal/progressive Islam fail.
#14817891
GandalfTheGrey wrote:You could have taken another perspective and noted the very emergence of this mosque - in such an environment - is itself encouraging.


How is that encouraging? Ates was a feminist lawyer who had to quit her job because her life was in danger from exactly the faction that is now hurling death threats her way. She's under police protection, several members of her new project have already left for fear of their lives, and it'll be just a matter of time until she's either killed or will be forced to scrap that thing like she had to stop her work for battered women. I find it regrettable, but completely predictable. Projecting any kind of schadenfreude on me just because I don't indulge in your fantasies about a reformed, modern, vanilla version of Islam is entirely your problem, not mine.

If your world-view was to be believed, the mosque surely would have been descended upon by frothing-at-the-mouth Islamists and torched the moment it opened


See above

- and all its members beheaded.


Or stabbed, shot, axed, or run over with a truck. Or maybe just the promise will suffice to kill this project - these people have families they want to protect, you know?

And yet it stands, and according to your own article faces no serious threat to its existence by Islamists or anyone else. Almost all the criticism you could find of it was non-violent. You actually had to dig pretty deep to find actual violent threats against it.


I quoted one article where the "real muslims" got their official ok to see this liberal mosque as heresy, and I mentioned the interview that Die Welt published the next day, wherein Ates said herself that she gets death threats already, and that three members have already left for fear of their lives. So no, I didn't have to dig deep, but the results are not the ones you dreamed of.

Like I said you could have taken an entirely different outlook and commended the emergence of these movements (this is certainly not the only one), and implored the naysayers to get on board, and applauding the opportunity this creates for Islam.


In other words, I could have shared your delusion that "liberal" and "Islam" could be combined, and that would somehow have influenced the orthodox muslims that objectively exist in the real world - you know, the ones uttering death threats against this pipe dream.

You could even have noted that there was no meaningful threat to its existence by Islamists,


Why would I deny reality? So that you're happy? Your undisturbed existence in your bubble where Islam is peaceful isn't my problem.

Instead of insisting that the (rather predictable) criticisms of these movements must necessarily mean there's not a snowball's chance in hell for them.


Death threats are "criticisms" now? :lol: Interesting shift of your concept of acceptable forms of debate.

But you can't countenance such a possibility because it destroys your world view


I never paid much attention to islam and its adherents until they began to be actively destructive in my country. My worldview was formed by observation of what was happening in the world, not by wishful thinking, which is quite obviously the basis for your worldview.

- and so you pretend you are merely "observing" instead of actively creating a narrative for yourself to satisfy your rather sick desire to see liberal/progressive Islam fail.


The only desire I have regarding islam is that it should work out its problem somewhere else than in my country - preferably in one of the 56 paradises it has already created for itself. I don't give a rat's ass if it's liberal or conservative as long as it doesn't impact me. So I don't need to create narratives - that's the prerogative of left-liberals who then throw a tantrum when someone points out the real-world fuckup that is Islam.
#14817901
This story is a good example that the west will not reform Islam or bring it more in line with its progressive values. When politicians go on stage preaching about how it is radical Islam that is the problem not "moderate Islam", they are fooling themselves and other people.

It is also interesting to observe Muslims believing how they can be moderate and can exist within western society without friction. It is seems Muslims themselves have no clue what they go themselves into.
#14817909
Gandalfthegrey is correct. There is two ways at looking at this story. The first is that conservative Muslims in non western countries are against change (the same thing can be applied today with Christian bishops accepting homosexuals into the church by the way) and this is sad to read. The second is that Liberal Muslims are trying to alter the perception of their faith and bring it into the 21st century. I focus on the second more heart warming story. Death threats are common with a sensitive issue. Miller had the same problem when challenging article 50. What is important is that there are people out there to make a stand and challenge extreme views and show people that Islam does have followers willing to adapt to fit into Western society. So when I read that Islam can't change and will never fit into todays western customs, I will say, well actually there is a mosque in Berlin that is doing the opposite to what you write. And churches are still refusing same sex marriages and gay bishops.
#14817912
@Albert

Yes, which is why something like Quranism, an ideology that was created in the Middle East and has it's roots in the Islamic Golden Age and has theological roots (which makes it a theological reform), is a better fit for the reformation of Islam. However Quranism is inherently anti-organized religion and therefore a Quranist mosque is inherently contradictory. I assume this mosque's "liberal teachings" are simply political reforms, basically attempting to mold the source material to fit liberalism which I disagree with. We need theological reforms, not political reforms.

I don't understand what your saying here. No one is preventing *cough* "the Muslims" from being moderate. There are in fact lots of moderate Muslims as in, Muslims who do not go around killing people. Political opinions aside, many Muslims go through their entire lives not doing anything to anyone. Not only that, but this "friction" is not coming from the people who live in Europe but outside Europe such as ISIS and other extremists. No one in "western society" is saying that the liberal mosque is bad (other than you and @Frollein apparently) and no one is "western society" is preventing them from being moderate. Hell, no one even outside the West is preventing them from having a liberal mosque.

Also I bet that the people who built the liberal mosque knew exactly what they were getting themselves into. They knew the reactions of both extremists and islamophobes before they happened and probably anticipated this and yet they did it anyways. Although their mosque will probably have very little effect on the development of Islam, the fact that they are willing to do this is pretty brave.
#14817914
Islam is not something liberal or illiberal. Why do people try and politicise a religion? Opening a mosque like this is very stupid and will just annoy people.

But as per usual liberals understand nothing about anything. The world is not meant to be liberal. People have their own ways of life and we must respect them.

At the same time we also reserve the right to preserve our own identities and traditions.

Liberals will deny us our own identities but then try and impose their obscure values on completely different civilisations.

Let Muslims be Muslims and let Europeans be Europeans. Then we can all live in peace.
#14817915
@B0ycey

Although this is good for Muslims living in "western society" and can positively influence the perception of Islam in "western countries" I am sorry to say that this will have very little effect on changing Islam since this form of change is only political reform. The goal is to westernize Islam, it's goal is not to provide a meaningful change to it.

@Political Interest

1. That is true. The goal is not to make Islam more politically correct but to make it fit within western society which involves more than politics. It is liberal because liberalism is something many Europeans say they value (which unfortunately is wrong) and is something that is apart of European culture despite it's simplicity.

2. I think you misunderstand what liberalism even is. In fact what you stated right there is a tenet of liberalism: tolerance. However in another persons liberalism tolerance isn't necessary. Everyone has his own idea of liberalism at this point. Liberalism is no longer an ideology, like conservatism, it represents a culture. European culture is a combination of Liberal and Conservative culture and European culture is a story, a story of the war between the two. Right now we are at the tipping point, the defining battle in the war between Liberalism and Conservatism.

3. That can also be apart of Liberalism, the salad bowel, the idea that everyone has a right to his own culture. However some liberals like the melting pot, the idea that everyone must mix each other's culture together. Like I said, Liberalism is a culture and like all cultures and societies it is complex and cannot be singled down to a single definition because liberalism means different things to people similar to conservatism.

4. And Conservatism's values are equally as obscure. Name me a conservative value. Chances are someone would come along and say that you're wrong and that it isn't a conservative value and then state their own values. Conservatism is also a culture and society and cannot be singled down to a single definition.

5. I think you mean Middle Easterners. By calling anyone who comes from the Middle East a Muslims you frame the Middle East's politics in a stupid and monolithic way. You encourage the thought that Islam is a race irrespective of the numerous ethnicities that live there and you frame all conflicts as a religious problem by saying that.
#14817921
Oxymandias wrote:Hell, no one even outside the West is preventing them from having a liberal mosque.


In most of the Muslim world the woman would be dead by now.

Oxymandias wrote:I think you misunderstand what liberalism even is. In fact what you stated right there is a tenet of liberalism: tolerance. However in another persons liberalism tolerance isn't necessary. Everyone has his own idea of liberalism at this point. Liberalism is no longer an ideology, like conservatism, it represents a culture.


I think you misunderstand what liberalism is. I suggest reading the Wikipedia article at the very least.

Political Interest wrote:Let Muslims be Muslims and let Europeans be Europeans. Then we can all live in peace.


Last time I checked there are Muslims living in Europe.
#14817923
Oxymandias wrote:@B0ycey

Although this is good for Muslims living in "western society" and can positively influence the perception of Islam in "western countries" I am sorry to say that this will have very little effect on changing Islam since this form of change is only political reform. The goal is to westernize Islam, it's goal is not to provide a meaningful change to it.


I am a firm believer that the West (more specifically the UK) should not intervene in another country unless it's for a defence purpose. This includes political, economic or relgious dogma reasons. So the opinion of conservative Muslims in Muslim countries doesn't bother me as I don't believe in interference. After all, interference is why the ME is a mess currently and why there is a refugee crisis in Europe. However an immigrant that moves to a specific country (refugee or migrant) should adhere to the cultures of such country. Western countries have freedom of religion as a human right. So whether a Muslim chooses a Liberal mosque or not to attend is irrelevant. What is relevant is that there are Muslims who want to modernise their religion to a more Liberal form. That is great. And it also proves to the xenophobes on this forum that Islam can adapt to a more western values religion. Whether it changes Islam completely, well I'm not naive. Christianity is no difference today than 500 years ago in certain principles even with the 'enlightenment'. But it's a start. And that is what I take from this story.

Oh, by the way, this Mosque was formed by a Muslim so not a western government project to Liberalize Islam.

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