[One Degree]

Yes, I'm sure that hypothetical is a big problem for you.

I wish you the best in getting through that thing that apparently is affecting you.

You probably did not see my edit.

[Stormsmith]

Then why do you drive us crazy asking us?

point taken

[AFAIK]

Also this by Roy who is ace:

Why is France mentioned by name but not Turkey? Why is it oppressive and imperialistic when a Christian majority country promotes secularism but not when a Muslim majority country does the same?

Anyway, I'll send my sons to schools dressed as grand wizards and trust that the Wymyns won't be telling the Menz how to dress.

[Rich]

It becomes an act of humiliation and cultural Imperialism

Fine by me! Muslims have been humiliating Infidels for 1400 years, that's when they're not murdering them. Acceptance and tolerance of the Burka within our culture is a further humiliation of us Infidels. It speaks to the pathetic beta cuck nature of our modern culture that any westerner would countenance such an idea even for one second. So maybe its not the best thing for this special snow flake of a girl and her special snow flake of a mother, but that's not our concern. Our concern is with all the other pupils and parents who do not want a student going round in a burka. Our country needs to give this girl and her mother a simple message: "love it or leave it baby!"

@skinster You say men should spend less time worrying about the dress codes of women. Well by that token maybe Muslims should spend less time worrying about these imagined human rights violations in Western countries and more time trying to sort out their own countries. We Europeans had a brief period of dominance and colonialism over the Muslim world, its time to recognise we made terrible mistakes during colonialism, the primary one being far too respectful and deferential to Islam.

[Ned Lud]

The SU certainly did some real work with the Nazis like supplying them with the raw materials necessary to conquer France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Norway and cooperating with the Gestapo to exterminate Polish nationalist resistance. While Joseph Stalin was pallying up to Hitler, the US although non belligerent was at least supporting the British blockade and giving increasing amounts of assistance. We British who with our commonwealth friends and Polish and Czech escapee fighters stood alone against the Axis in 1940 will take no lectures from Commies on fighting Nazis.

I recommend Tony Cliff's "State Capitalism in Russia". He makes the case that the evidence shows that Stalin's Soviet Union had greater inequality than the United States at the time.

What has all this to do with the question we were discussing? As an International Socialist Branch Secretary I knew Tony Cliff passably well and reckon to have read most of his works.

[Buzz62]

What is wrong with these bleeding heart euros who want to throw their own culture and accepted public norms, to the winds just to satisfy people who come to the west and refuse to join our societies? As far as I'm concerned, wearing a mask in public means one of 2 things:
1. You are some sort of criminal.
2. It's Halloween.

A woman can't wear a mini skirt in many, if not most, Arab countries.
And a woman should not be able to wear a fuckin' mask in public in our part of the world.

This is just one more piece of horseshit designed to weaken the western community, in order to pave the way for Arab/Muslim dominance.
I wish they'd all just go back to the desert where they came from.

[skinster]

^ "Arab/Muslim dominance" in the West

Why is France mentioned by name but not Turkey? Why is it oppressive and imperialistic when a Christian majority country promotes secularism but not when a Muslim majority country does the same?

The quote by Roy was a response to the time some authorities on a French beach prevented a woman from sitting there because she was wearing a burkini.

We Europeans had a brief period of dominance and colonialism over the Muslim world, its time to recognise we made terrible mistakes during colonialism, the primary one being far too respectful and deferential to Islam.

Colonialism and imperialism in the Middle East is ongoing. It's like the War of Terror, the decades-long occupation of Palestine & the propping up of anti-democratic regimes isn't happening.

You're a lunatic, Rich. Which is why I ignore you / put you on ignore usually, but since you @ me I was forced to read the usual shit you continue to put out. I don't see the point in even discussing anything with you since your worldview is basically, delusional. Adios.

[Ned Lud]

It is very difficult to make any sensible contribution to a discussion constantly dominated by racist crusaders talking about things of which they know nothing. Clearly human beings in a free society should wear what they please, but we don't live in a free society but a rather nasty patriarchy, where in the West near-nudity is forced on women and in the Middle East a total cover-up is. In the west, by and large, any woman wearing a headscarf and a veil is almost certainly doing so from choice, in counties where it is traditional probably just going along with normal social customs. For the moment, I think that in this society, showing the face is necessary for full equality (why do rich actors, singers and so on favour hiding their eyes behind sun-glasses?) while even partial nudity is very dangerous in the Middle East, because of Saudi and other such pressures, so we're stuck with these positions for the moment. Stop supporting Saudi Arabia and things might improve.

[Buzz62]

^ "Arab/Muslim dominance" in the West

You think that's funny?



Ya know...the Vatican doesn't think this is very funny.
But hey, we may as well call a spade a spade when discussing traitorous and self-deprecating liberal ideas...huh?

[Ned Lud]

Bear in mind that after '9.11' Israelis found it easy to bribe Palestinian children to dance, so that they could be photographed as racist propaganda. Do the persons in the photograph have power? Where?

[mikema63]

God this is such a non-issue. Seriously just have the secretary confirm her identity and be done with it.

The fact that this has turned into five pages of people arguing whether or not Muslims are an evil hivemind or not just goes to show how depressing any discussion of Muslims has become on PoFo.

[Buzz62]

God this is such a non-issue. Seriously just have the secretary confirm her identity and be done with it.

The fact that this has turned into five pages of people arguing whether or not Muslims are an evil hivemind or not just goes to show how depressing any discussion of Muslims has become on PoFo.

So don't read the articles if it hurts your poor, privileged, self-defeating sensibilities.

Europe is in crisis.
The very foundations of the European society...YOUR society...are under open and violent attack.
And you think it's a non-issue.
Can you find pleasure hitting yourself with a baseball bat too?

[MadMonk]

God this is such a non-issue. Seriously just have the secretary confirm her identity and be done with it.

The fact that this has turned into five pages of people arguing whether or not Muslims are an evil hivemind or not just goes to show how depressing any discussion of Muslims has become on PoFo.

Indeed, and yet, we are now forced to debate the real question on this level. The Burqa in of itself matters very little even to its detractors, it is used purely as the most easily identifiable symbol of changes they disapprove of. They don't really care about these woman (at all), but it lets them frame the debate and piggyback of legitimate criticism directed at more important issues.

[Buzz62]

Indeed, and yet, we are now forced to debate the real question on this level. The Burqa in of itself matters very little even to its detractors, it is used purely as the most easily identifiable symbol of changes they disapprove of. They don't really care about these woman (at all), but it lets them frame the debate and piggyback of legitimate criticism directed at more important issues.

True. This face-scarf is just a visible symptom of a larger issue.
And this endless cry to roll over for those who seek to destroy our society, is sickening.

[skinster]

The fact that this has turned into five pages of people arguing whether or not Muslims are an evil hivemind or not just goes to show how depressing any discussion of Muslims has become on PoFo.

But come on, considering things rationally might prevent Islamophobes ITT from terrorizing themselves.

[Buzz62]

Indeed.
And Hitler was an OK guy...until he wasn't.

Morons!

[One Degree]

If we want to discuss the real issues...
This would not be a problem and neither would immigration except for the concept of 'individual rights'. The fear is setting legal precedents that undermine the wishes of the majority in the community. Once you decide an individual has that right, then your entire culture is endangered by every person who does not accept your current culture who enters your community.
There is good reason to fear, but we have created it ourselves.

[Buzz62]

If we want to discuss the real issues...
This would not be a problem and neither would immigration except for the concept of 'individual rights'. The fear is setting legal precedents that undermine the wishes of the majority in the community. Once you decide an individual has that right, then your entire culture is endangered by every person who does not accept your current culture who enters your community.
There is good reason to fear, but we have created it ourselves.

We are "Individual rights-ing" ourselves into the realm of utter stupidity. And we're ripe for the taking. Weak. Docile. Splintered.
We award ourselves "rights" and "freedoms" that are asinine.

I've sat here over the last couple years, opposing neo-cons and their incredibly damaging economic views, the iraq war, the healthcare debate...which continues, etc, etc, etc...And I got engaged with a very smart woman who's position...about 2 years ago...was finish the Arab nations off once and for all. I argued against this because I found the idea deplorable. Today...not so much I'm afraid.

FREEDOM is a PRIVILEGE! Not a right.
You have but one real right from the moment you are born. The right to die.
We have gotten so creamy and silly, that people can actually wear spaghetti strainers on their heads in official documents now. We've taken leave of any common sense, what so ever.
Apparently, we can't really be trusted to determine what our "individual rights" should be.

[AFAIK]

The quote by Roy was a response to the time some authorities on a French beach prevented a woman from sitting there because she was wearing a burkini.

The woman you quoted used the term burqa rather than burqini. Burqinis are already banned in Turkey since any covering of the hair is banned there whereas France only bans facial coverings so I'll repeat my question;

Why is France mentioned by name but not Turkey? Why is it oppressive and imperialistic when a Christian majority country promotes secularism but not when a Muslim majority country does the same?

[Ned Lud]

The SU certainly did some real work with the Nazis like supplying them with the raw materials necessary to conquer France, Belgium, Holland, Denmark and Norway and cooperating with the Gestapo to exterminate Polish nationalist resistance. While Joseph Stalin was pallying up to Hitler, the US although non belligerent was at least supporting the British blockade and giving increasing amounts of assistance. We British who with our commonwealth friends and Polish and Czech escapee fighters stood alone against the Axis in 1940 will take no lectures from Commies on fighting Nazis.

I recommend Tony Cliff's "State Capitalism in Russia". He makes the case that the evidence shows that Stalin's Soviet Union had greater inequality than the United States at the time.

I replied to this a day or two back, but something seems to have eaten it. We were not discussing state capitalism. I knew Cliff slightly when I was an International Socialist branch Sec., and I've read most of his works at one time and another.