[mikema63]

I shall now propose a moral system where murder is justified by the statistical size of the murdered population verses the statistical size of the murderers group.

Because one degree thinks this murder was fine because it was only one person.

[SolarCross]

According to Stefan Molyneux's comment there were only 500 "nazis" at that rally, whilst 1000 first responders were deployed. 2 cops for every one nazi. I don't think this is the end of the Weimar republic just yet.

[mikema63]

Stefan molyneux is a psychotic conspiracy theorist and can hardly be taken at his word.

[The Immortal Goon]

Yes, definitely. The so called Nazis in the US are on the same threat level as junior high kids walking out of school in protest. It is just convenient for the left to glorify them. You have to have someone to hate if you are going to convince people to support authoritarian concepts.

Edit: I love @The Immortal Goon pretending he is unaware of such a strategy.

I keep making the mistake of overrating the intellegence of the rightwing it seems.

As the links show, the Nazi conspiracy theory about "Cultural Marxism," is well alive with the right. Once only accepted by the fringe, the right itself seems to be accepting Nazi ideals. I find this troubling.

[SolarCross]

Stefan molyneux is a psychotic conspiracy theorist and can hardly be taken at his word.

Well according to true believers of the SJW religion so is anyone who is white, straight and male a psychotic conspiracy theorist and a nazi of course. Yes definitely a nazi. You should punch him.

I wonder on the diminishing returns of using ad hominems as a substitute for debate.

[One Degree]

I shall now propose a moral system where murder is justified by the statistical size of the murdered population verses the statistical size of the murderers group.

Because one degree thinks this murder was fine because it was only one person.

Ok, if you are not going to let me be light hearted about it.
How many Nazis are in the US? You indicate it is a large number.
Where did I say it was fine this lady died?
Why do you attribute her death to Nazis rather than the individual that actually killed her?
Does it really matter what his political beliefs were? Only if you are insane enough to think hate crimes are a good idea.

Edit: You never see numbers listed in articles about Nazis in the US. The reason is simple. Their numbers are so small that listing them would discredit the article.

[jimjam]

Apparently, voting their conscience means putting self ahead of country and certainly not to make America greater than ever before.

Ummmm, nope. It means rejecting the jingoistic bullshit uttered by a narcissistic fruit cake and taking the side of 20,000,000 Americans who would suffer increased pain and death resulting from the loss of their health care.

[SolarCross]

I keep making the mistake of overrating the intellegence of the rightwing it seems.

Okay what follows is a cheap shot that proves nothing but I just thought it was amusing that a poindexter phd who spends his life revising history so that we will all be convinced that one day the communists will win over the evil race of top hat wearing cat-pig hybrids would mispell "intelligence" whilst complaining of how stupid non-marxists are.

[mikema63]

There are currently 90 neo Nazi groups in the US and some 917 hate groups generally (KKK various white supremesist groups, etc.).

The KKK alone has some 8,000 members.

If we had radical Muslim groups in these kinds of numbers the right would have a hysterical breakdown.

You want to deny any violence as political violence in which case terrorism is merely a string of murders that have nothing to do with the beliefs held by the murderers.

[One Degree]

There are currently 90 neo Nazi groups in the US and some 917 hate groups generally (KKK various white supremesist groups, etc.).

The KKK alone has some 8,000 members.

If we had radical Muslim groups in these kinds of numbers the right would have a hysterical breakdown.

You want to deny any violence as political violence in which case terrorism is merely a string of murders that have nothing to do with the beliefs held by the murderers.

Source please?

Edit: Even if I accepted your numbers, that is 160 per state. And that is KKK, not Nazis.

[mikema63]

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

You say 18 distinct hate groups per state like that's a good thing.

[SolarCross]

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

You say 18 distinct hate groups per state like that's a good thing.

What proportion of those are antifa, BLM, Islamist radicals or similar?

[One Degree]

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

You say 18 distinct hate groups per state like that's a good thing.

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

You say 18 distinct hate groups per state like that's a good thing.

First off it is from SPLC.
Second, it lists all groups including black separatist and Muslim groups.
Third, it is a map that does not include membership numbers even on the links to the groups.
Your 18 groups could be 18 people.
Under their categories, Nazis are not even mentioned. Apparently not even they consider Nazis relevant.

[ingliz]

violence as political violence

US Terrorism Deaths by Ideology (excluding Islamists) 1992-2017

Right wing: 219

Left wing: 23

Unknown: 15


Total: 257

Source: Cato Institute

[SolarCross]

Second, it lists all groups including black separatist and Muslim groups.

Correction, the SPLC includes Black Separatists as a hate group but does not include muslim groups, only anti-muslim groups. It has radical catholic traditionalists listed as a hate group but not actual islamic terrorists.

[mikema63]

Maybe because it lists groups that openly operate out of the United States which muslims groups don't.

Third, it is a map that does not include membership numbers even on the links to the groups.
Your 18 groups could be 18 people.

You are a bullshit artist. If you actually follow the links then you would see that they do post membership numbers where available.

Under their categories, Nazis are not even mentioned. Apparently not even they consider Nazis relevant.

Yes they do, they use swastika symbols for neo-nazi groups. Did you even follow the link at all?

[SolarCross]

Yes they do, they use swastika symbols for neo-nazi groups. Did you even follow the link at all? :?:

Agreed, it has neo-nazis, white nationalists, and skinhead groups listed all of which fairly plausibly count as nazis.

So when are you off to punch them for their hatefullness? Are you planning on punching any Islamic suicide bombers on the way?

[EggbertEinstein]

Yesterday I watched a youtube by Molineux on Cherlottesville.

I have been watching these guys like Stefan Molineux and that Breitbart guy Ben whose second name escapes me right now. I get the impression that it is not primarily debate that is needed to combat these people. These people are good debaters and quite logical. The issue is that they operate purely within a very restricted range of facts and talking points and they are very good at pulling the discussion within that sphere and reframing the debate accordingly. Also they are very good at turning things round and projecting that tendency upon their opponents.

Also they seem to be good at picking their opponents so that they score easy victories over confused and irrational opponents, who are then taken to be representative of some whole conjectured left wing establishment. They are not alone in doing that of course.

What is needed, in my opinion, is a cultural shift back towards learning a wide range of facts, especially those which are to be found outside your own comfort zone. Also, a return to the oldfashioned (dare I say it conservative) principle that it is our responsability to listen, especially to those who are learned. Those who are too ignorant to realise they are ignorant or too stupid to know they are stupid should, within a functioning society, be politely but firmly encouraged by the rest of society to speak a bit less and listen a bit more. Viewing from outside, it seems to me that American society is in danger of being too atomised, individualistic and too enamoured of crude verbal taunting to be able to function like that.

I can see why these demagogues focus so intently on freedom of speech to the exclusion of just about all else. They are benefitting tremendously from a culture where, on any given subject, the opinion of the most learned professor in that subject is given the same weight as some random person off the street. Indeed the prof may be given less weight because he "does not have a real job" or is presumed to be part of some left wing homogeneus establishment or whatever.

Now I agree with many points by Molineux on freedom of speech. If someone is wrong then debate them rather than silencing them. However I think it dodges the issue of the relative weight given to people with different degrees of expertise. More importantly, I observe him using his own particular formulation of freedom of speech as a springboard for constructing contorted arguments in order to misdirect blame for violence.

Whilst I am on this subject I make another point: often those with deep knowledge of a specialist subject tend to be slow but deep thinkers. As such they tend to be ill suited to these lawyerly and journalistic styles of argument which dominate the public eye. This is not a bad thing because these styles of debate are very poor for getting to the bottom of a matter with any kind of nuance. But it does unfortunately enable them to be marginalised and misrepresented in the public eye.

[mikema63]

So when are you off to punch them for their hatefullness? Are you planning on punching any Islamic suicide bombers on the way?

If that's the best response you have then I've probably won the argument.

[skinster]