[skinster]

Well, that's obvious.

What do you think of liberal zionists, ZN?

[Zionist Nationalist]

Well, that's obvious.

What do you think of liberal zionists, ZN?

You mean the Israeli labor party?

they are lunatics they dont have balls to stand for they country basically all their politics was to do anything America tells us to do. also they have a dangerous socialist agenda

[skinster]

Do they have a lot of support in Israel?

I didn't mean them though, I meant lib zionists like red carpet above and others, who think a two-state solution is possible, despite the OP.

[Zionist Nationalist]

depends. meretz and labor both left wing parties are basically dead and labor expected to get not more than 10 mandates in the next elections (and meretz will as usually gonna get 4-5 mandates)
but there is a new party run by yair lapid that he said that he support 2 state solution and they expected to get more than 20 mandates next elections but all the major support he is gaining is due to the secular wanting to elect a party that will be strongly anti Orthodox Jews

the Palestinian issue is not very important one anymore and recent elections are all about religion and economy

[skinster]

yair lapid

I remember him.

[Zionist Nationalist]

There arent any parties in Israel who would support BDS

maybe only the Arab party (which is unimportant) but they arent allow to say it publicly

[redcarpet]

Do they have a lot of support in Israel?

I didn't mean them though, I meant lib zionists like red carpet above and others, who think a two-state solution is possible, despite the OP.

I don't. I stopped thinking that in 2006 after Hamas won the 2006 election. And said so on this board. I said I take the same view as the Israeli public when polled. While on one hand when asked do they support a two-state solution most saying yes. But when asked "Do you think it happen?" most say no.

Latest:

Do you support or oppose the solution based on the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, known as the two-state solution?
(PCPSR, June 2016)



Israeli Jews


Israeli Arabs


General Public
Definitely Support

15%


32.9%


17.7%
Support

38.4%


54.2%


40.8%
Oppose

21.5%


9.8%


19.7%
Definitely Oppose

15.7%


1.8%


13.6%
Don't know

9.4%


1.3%


8.2%

In principle, do you support or not support the solution of two states for two peoples?
(Peace Index, January 2016)



Israeli Jews


Israeli Arabs


General Public
Don't support it at all

25.4%


8.5%


22.6%
Don't support it much

17.8%


10.3%


16.5%
Moderately support it

30.4%


48.4%


33.4%
Strongly support it

21.9%


31.5%


23.5%
Don't know

4.5%


1.3%


4.0%

What, in your opinion, are the chances that such a solution will be implemented in the next ten years?
(Peace Index, January 2016)



Israeli Jews


Israeli Arabs


General Public
Very high chances

2.5%


4.4%


2.8%
Moderately high chances

8.5%


10.7%


8.9%
Moderately low chances

41.9%


40.2%


41.6%
Very low chances

42.0%


35.3%


40.9%
Don't know

5.1%


9.3%


5.8%

[skinster]

I don't. I stopped thinking that in 2006 after Hamas won the 2006 election.

Ah yes, Hamas, a guerilla organization whose election the west refused to recognize, who live under Israeli blockade and so are basically controlled and imprisoned by Israel are.....dictating whether a two-state-solution can happen, and not the occupying force (that which has all the power, AKA Israel).

[redcarpet]

are.....dictating whether a two-state-solution can happen

That's right, they're opposed to it. They say so.

You also dodged my point totally; you claimed I think the two-state solution can still happen. I don't, I haven't since the 2006 election.

Rather that you'd see two Palestinian states formed. A violent scenario like the division of Germany or Korea.

[skinster]

Yes, they did oppose the recognition of a settler-colonialist state a few decades ago when they came into existence as a resistance organization against the just-a-few-decades-before colonization and ethnic-cleansing of their land, but eventually accepted the two-state solution.

But what the fuck does it matter what Hamas thinks, they have hardly any power. Only Israel can control what can be as of now since it's basically controlling all of Palestine, wtf are you even talking about. If Palestinians had any power they'd be free already, not living under a military occupation and economic blockade.

Two Palestinian states formed? That's a first. One would suffice.

At this stage it's clear Israel has no plans for peace with the Palestinians - read the OP! - but that's been clear for a while and made BDS become a thing 18 years ago so whatever, hopefully that movement has an effect since the status quo means many more Palestinians being killed on the way to liberation of their land.

In the meantime, phoney socialists like you and can cry for Israel in that super convincing way that you do.

[Decky]

The two state solution is moronic. When Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Russia did the Russians start dividing their country into two? No the kicked him out back where he came from and the Palestinians should do likewise. Jews already have a homeland where they are safe and have 100% political control. Why do they think they have to have Palestine as well? What they did manage to kill enough arabs to get their living space? Where would have to be genocided next? Syria? Turkey? Europe? The world?

[Oxymoron]

The two state solution is moronic. When Napoleon Bonaparte invaded Russia did the Russians start dividing their country into two? No the kicked him out back where he came from and the Palestinians should do likewise. Jews already have a homeland where they are safe and have 100% political control. Why do they think they have to have Palestine as well? What they did manage to kill enough arabs to get their living space? Where would have to be genocided next? Syria? Turkey? Europe? The world? :?:

Unfortunately for you the Palestinians are cowardly and cannot fight for shit.

[skinster]

If Palestinians had an army and the weapons America donates to Israel, zionists would be flocking back to where they (recently) came from.

[redcarpet]

If Palestinians had an army and the weapons America donates to Israel, zionists would be flocking back to where they (recently) came from.

If Palestinians have the right to self-determination so do Jews in the State of Israel.

A one-state end of the conflict would not mean fleeing of Jews but either their ethnic cleansing or genocide.

That's one of the reasons why Dr. Norman Finkelstein opposes it;

Well, never mind the time constraints. Maybe two-staters are too soft, too eager to see that ordinary Palestinians in the occupied territories are freed from their agonies. Suppose, in the leisurely, bloody, starvation-ridden fullness of time, a single state gets implemented. Then we come to the oddest illusion of all: that if you put two antagonistic peoples together in one state, their antagonism will vanish. Why? What issues are resolved? Will Palestinians and Jews cease to compete for state power? Will Israeli Jews, because they have lost their Jewish state, feel disposed to hand over their homes and businesses as well? Does binationalism turn men into angels?

Recent history suggests otherwise. The binational state that bears closest comparison with Palestine is Lebanon, where many Palestinians now live. Even subtracting the toll exacted by Israeli invasions, the carnage there has exceeded by orders of magnitude that of the entire Israel/Palestine conflict. The most encouraging examples of binational states, Belgium and Czechoslovakia, are now dissolved or on the brink of dissolution. Then there is, or was, Yugoslavia. Is there such warmth between Israeli Jews and Palestinians that we may expect a better outcome there than in these countries?

The fact is that a single state guarantees nothing. Notoriously, the democratic process does not ensure that the will of the majority really prevails. Dominant economic groups know how to confuse, divide and conquer. They may well, through a mixture or bribery and manipulation, remain dominant – why, in this day and age, does this need saying? In Palestine, the dominant economic group is composed of Israeli Jews. They may well push for further expansion of the settlements. This expansion may well be reinforced by a repressive *binational* state apparatus with a permanent presence all over the occupied territories – where, in the name of justice, no square inch will be
retained for exclusively Palestinian use. Yes, there will be ‘Arabs’ in Haifa and Tel Aviv, just as there are today. There will also be Jews in Nablus, Jenin, and Ramallah, as well as everywhere else they can buy land from distressed Palestinians. This does not necessarily make for a love-feast.

It is no good promising that all the nice stuff will come later. How? Presumably a single state is supposed to bring justice, not after mass slaughter, but after elections. Really? Will millions of Jews just leave if a majority says they should? Will they agree to crushing compensatory payments? Will they also agree to be sued or imprisoned for exercising what they consider their rights to self-determination and even survival? If not, if the one-staters actually are thinking of a bloodbath, they should let us know, and tell us why they think a bloodbath will really bring justice to the Palestinians.

Against all this, one-staters keep repeating that a single state is just. If appeals to justice were enough to get the Israelis to abolish Israel, there would never have been a problem in the first place. Perhaps that is why the most recent expression of one-state ideology, The One State declaration, does not answer a single one of the hard questions the one state solution raises.

For example, most Palestinian property in Israel is now occupied by Jews, who firmly believe they have a right to their homes. Will these people be expelled, or not? Another example: will the settlers be kicked out of their settlements? will they be disarmed? by what army? will Zionists be expelled from the armed forces? how? Not a whisper of an answer is to be found. Instead we get generalities. (See http://www.counterpunch.org/onestate.html) Perhaps this is why neither Fatah nor Hamas, who together must represent roughly 100% of the Palestinians in the occupied territories, have no time for binationalism.

[skinster]

If Palestinians have the right to self-determination so do Jews in the State of Israel.

First, how is this even a response to what I posted?

Secondly, Jews already are the privileged class in Palestine, it's the Palestinians (the natives) that have no rights.

A one-state end of the conflict would not mean fleeing of Jews but either their ethnic cleansing or genocide.

What?

Finkelstein is fun to bring up:

Also, you should watch all of this:

[skinster]

In recording, John Kerry says Israeli government doesn’t want peace
John Kerry blamed the Israeli government’s resistance to the establishment of a Palestinian state for harming the prospects of a peace deal, while warning Israel could face a future violent Palestinian uprising if there was no progress in peace talks.

In recordings published Tuesday by Channel 10, America’s former top diplomat can be heard praising the Palestinian Authority’s commitment to nonviolence following a wave of terror attacks beginning in the fall of 2015, which he said has been ignored by Israelis due to right-wing configuration of the current government.

“The Palestinians have done an extraordinary job of remaining committed to nonviolence. And in fact when the [knife] intifada took place they delivered non-violence in the West Bank,” Kerry is heard saying in the recording.

“This is overlooked by the general [Israeli] population because it is not a topic of discussion. Why? Because the majority of the cabinet in the current Israeli government has publicly declared they are not ever for a Palestinian state,” he adds.

Channel 10 said the recording was made at a conference in Dubai in the past year attended by Middle East leaders and Israel’s Joint (Arab) List chief Ayman Odeh. The television channel also said opposition leader Isaac Herzog (Zionist Union) addressed the conference by video.

Kerry warned in the recording that frustrations among Palestinians could boil over into violence and that the current status quo cannot last. “If you see 40,000 kids marching up to the wall everyday with signs saying ‘give us are rights,’ I mean, I don’t think Palestine is going to be immune forever to the civil rights movements that have swept other nations in the world,” he says.

Despite this, Kerry said Israel is ignoring the threat posed by the diplomatic stalemate. “That is not leadership,” says Kerry.

“If you don’t have leaders who don’t want to make peace, if the equation doesn’t change, I’ll be amazed if within the next 10 years if we don’t see some young [Palestinian] leader come along who says we have tried non-violence for the last 30 years and look, it hasn’t gotten us anything,” he says.

In light of the lack of peace prospects, Kerry says in the recording that Herzog may present Israel’s best hope for reaching a deal with the Palestinians. He also praised a number of former Israeli leaders, saying their examples should be followed in pursuing negotiations.

“You gotta have a willingness to make peace. If there is a willingness to make peace — [Ehud] Olmert, [Ehud] Barak, [Yitzhak] Rabin, [Shimon] Peres — people indicated how you do it,” Kerry says.

Kerry also detailed a number of steps taken to ensure Israel’s security following the establishment of a Palestinian state, which he said included King Abdullah of Jordan’s agreement to host Israeli troops at an airport in the kindom and the “pre-deployment of weapons” in the West Bank. He also says in the recording Israel would have the right to respond to threats in the West Bank within minutes if the Palestinians failed to act.

In response to the recordings, the Prime Minister’s Office told Channel 10 Netanyahu would continue to safeguard Israel’s security and national interests, regardless of any pressure by “those who tried to prod [Israel] to make dangerous concessions and failed.”

It also placed the blame for the impasse in peace talks on the Palestinians “refusal to recognize Israel within any borders.”

“It is unfortunate John Kerry still doesn’t get this,” the PMO said.

Beginning in 2013, Kerry led a major round of peace talks, which ultimately collapsed in April 2014. The Palestinians in part blamed Israeli settlement construction for the failure of the negotiations, while Israel slammed the PA President Mahmoud Abbas’ Fatah party for agreeing to a reconciliation deal with the Hamas terror group.

Despite the failure, Kerry again tried to revive negotiations, proposing a regional peace plan for the renewal of negotiations toward a two-state solution and recognition of Israel as a Jewish state last year that culminated in a secret meeting on February 21, 2016, between Netanyahu, Kerry, Egyptian President Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi and Jordan’s King Abdullah, the Haaretz daily reported in February.

The proposal, however, was rejected by Netanyahu.

Prior to leaving his post, Kerry gave a speech outlining his vision for future peace talks in which he excoriated Israel over its settlement policies, saying they endanger the possibility of reaching a two-state solution.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-record ... ant-peace/

[Sivad]

If Palestinians have the right to self-determination so do Jews in the State of Israel

There's no justice or justification in history or holdings. We all murdered and stole our way to the present predicament. The only question is if we're going to begin being reasonable compassionate people more interested in prosperous co-existence than eternal strife which will only end in mutual annihilation.

[Zionist Nationalist]

Compassion is for losers

[redcarpet]

Compassion is for losers

Yeah they nostalgise for 'village life' When they were able to persecute Jews in Mandatory Palestine & Ottoman occupation years as second class citizens.

[Rich]

I'd like to see Israel evolve into a binational state - a Jewish-Druze state. Any way if the Israelis were to offer the Druze of Southern Lebanon protection what harm could it do?