[anarchist23]

The Catalonians won't stand for this as it is reminiscent of the Franco days. The fascist Guardia Civil Police will have to deployed but they are despised by many of the Catalonians.
I said the Guardia Civil Police are a fascist force and what is happening now is reminiscent of the Franco regime.....The Guardia Civil are not ordinary police, they are military police. They are disliked in Catalona.
I've had many dealings with them and they are thugs. Squaddies

Are you serious quoting a fictional character from a Sci-Fi television show here?

In any event, they are a gendarmerie. Those are extremely common throughout the world. Comparing them to actual an military force as per the above quote is deeply flawed and reveals the simplicity of your thinking.

You've heard the phrase "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it's a duck" haven't you?

The Guardia Civil are the group who tried to reimpose a military dictatorship long after the death of Franco, when in 1981 a group of 200 Guardia Civil officers tried to execute a coup against a then democratic government.
The fascists won the war in Spain and that the transition to democracy from a dictatorship was a painful compromise for anyone who wasn't fascist.
Arguably the transition generously accommodated the winners of the Spanish civil war in order to work, meaning the Guardia Civil and the Francoist political apparatus remained mostly intact through the transition.
In light of that, here are the actions the Spanish have taken so far:
1:The Civil Guard raided Catalan government buildings and arrested 14 senior governmental officials, establishing emergency rule.
2: The Spanish government has taken control of Catalonia’s public finances, suspending de facto self-government fiscally and legally.
3: The Civil Guard entered editorial offices of Catalan newspapers to forbid them from publishing referendum coverage, threatening criminal charges.
4: Spanish prosecutors office ordered 22 websites taken down and the Civil Guard raided the .cat domain foundation controlling Catalan domain names, a serious technical assault on Catalan culture.
5: The Civil Guard confiscated official campaign material and posters in favor of referendum from privately owned printing shops and business.
6: The Spanish Attorney General ordered questioning of more than seven hundred Catalan mayors for illegally supporting the referendum.
7: The Spanish prosecutor’s office ordered Spanish police to confiscate ballot boxes to stop the voting taking place on October the 1st.
8: The Spanish postal service has warned its staff not to handle referendum materials or facilitate it in any way at the request of the government.
9: Spanish authorities are flooding tens of thousands of Civil Guard units into the region to reinforce local forces that are already in place and have placed the Catalonian police force under the control of the Guardia Civil.
10: In a clear effort to calm growing tensions amongst those who worry about political violence on October the 1st (referendum day), the official Civil Guard twitter account tweeted that they are “the coming storm”.

[Potemkin]

"Something I deeply admire about the Catalans is that their movement has no paramilitary wing. They are vulnerable to political violence."

Who wrote that shit?

[mikema63]

"I deeply admire that the Catalans have rendered themselves incapable of actually challenging the status quo."

[anarchist23]

"Something I deeply admire about the Catalans is that their movement has no paramilitary wing. They are vulnerable to political violence."

Who wrote that shit?

https://medium.com

[Potemkin]

Deliberately disarming oneself before attempting to stage a revolution is not admirable. It's just fucking stupid.

[anarchist23]

Deliberately disarming oneself before attempting to stage a revolution is not admirable. It's just fucking stupid.

Yes. Gandhi was armed to the teeth. lol

[mikema63]

http://www.susmitkumar.net/index.php/hi ... dependence

World War II had a profound effect on the colonial powers because it completely destroyed their economies. Although Hitler committed crimes against humanity, I give him credit—and not Gandhi—for India’s independence immediately after World War II. Hitler destroyed the economies of Britain and France to such an extent that they were no longer able to financially maintain their military forces, and were hence incapable of containing the burgeoning freedom movements in their colonies.

[Heisenberg]

Yes. Gandhi was armed to the teeth. lol

Gandhi might have been non-violent, but guys like Subhas Chandra Bose were armed to the teeth. Take that element away and he gets nowhere. Much like how if there were no Malcolm X/Huey Newton types in the US in the 60s, Martin Luther King probably wouldn't have got very far.

There's none of this in Catalonia. There's a bunch of geeky overgrown teenagers trying to have a revolution and appealing to people who are diametrically opposed to them to support them. It's stupidity in the extreme.

[Beren]

I think this is how the post-Franco era is finally ending. It took roughly a generation to get there.

[Rugoz]

Because I honestly think that claim is a misrepresentation based on no evidence apart from one instance of police misbehaviour

Eh...there are literally tons of videos on youtube. Like this one:

But, as I said before, even in the centralised state, Cataluña benefited from many investments of the state for its strategic importance. Cataluña benefited and the state as a whole benefited

I was hoping for actual numbers for the past few decades.

[anarchist23]

The Catalonian local police have a heated standoff with the fascist Guardia Civil National Police.

[johndogooder91]

You're not familiar with Catalan history I guess. Campaigning for No is almost impossible in Catalonia for historic and psychological reasons I think, boycotting the referendums is the only thing they can do.


Puigdemont wouldn't be afraid of Madrid if he got a convincing mandate. Support for independence is under 45%, it's around 42%. It would be a civil war between Catalans rather than a revolution, and Spain would side with the majority refusing independence of course. So what the fuck does the guy want at all? :?:

You are one of the few people who actually seems a little bit informed about this matter.

The funny thing here is the people here talking of the Catalans as if they were a 'national group fighting for their freedom and independence'.
This is not the case, and I'll say it again: Catalans understand this movement as a POLITICAL movement; and Catalan people, who actually know what's happening there (unlike 95% of people posting here), know this very well.
That's why only those percentages of Catalan people support independence. The reson why there are so many Catalans not supporting independence is NOT that they 'want to be subjugated by an allien nation', they simply don't buy the Politics behind the separatist movement.

They can't campaign for no but they can all somehow all decide to boycott instead?

Appealing to imaginary non-voters who may or may not exist who are secretly the majority and secretly support your position is a nonsense argument that can never be a valid argument against a democratic vote. They don't vote they don't get a vote.

Look, in Spain, that damned fuc***ng 'vote' was much talked about during previous weeks.
It was said time and again that the 'vote' wasn't a vote in any sense whatsoever.
This was repeated every single day for a month before 'the vote' took place.
Everyboday was already sick of the 'vote' several weeks before the 'vote'.

'The vote' is illegal, breaks the constitution, and can't be used to declare independence.
This was the ever-repeated message.

The Judicial System said so.
The goverment (Partido Popular) said so.
All the opposition parties (PSOE, Podemos, Ciudadanos) said so.
The Catalan parties who represent the majority of the votes in Cataluña said so.

The 'vote' is a joke, and not a vote.
This was the general conclusion drawn after all those days of suffering.

Yet, for some reason you seem to think that all Catalans not wanting independence had to waste their time on a sunday and going to 'vote' a 'vote' which is not a vote but a joke

[anarchist23]

Looks like there will be election in Catalonia in the next sis months.

The Spanish government and the main opposition have agreed to hold an early election in Catalonia - effectively sacking the regional government.

A spokesman from the opposition Spanish Socialist Workers Party said on Friday that an agreement had been reached with Spain's government on holding a new election in Catalonia in January.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said his government will announce special measures to take control of Catalonia after a cabinet meeting on Saturday, but he refused to confirm if the agreement includes plans to hold regional elections in January.

The special measures, including the suspension of Catalonia's political autonomy, are aimed at resolving the country's political crisis, but will likely inflame tensions. A protest is planned in Barcelona to coincide with the meeting.

Catalonia's government says it has the mandate to formally withdraw from Spain after an illegal referendum was held on 1 October, and does not want a new regional election.

Carles Puigdemont refused to drop the independence bid
The never-used-before Article 155 of the country's 1978 Constitution allows central authorities to take over all or some of the powers of any of the country's 17 autonomous regions.

Commenting on the unprecedented constitutional step he is taking, Mr Rajoy said: "The goal is double: the return to legality, and the recovery of institutional normalcy."

:: Spanish government says it will suspend Catalonia's autonomy

Approval from the Senate is required to implement the measure, but should pass easily and could do so as early as 27 October.

The move comes after Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont refused to drop the independence bid, demanding further talks with Mr Rajoy.

In Catalonia people responded to a call for direct action by withdrawing money from their bank accounts to put pressure on financial institutions which have moved their official headquarters to other locations in Spain.

Sky's Europe Correspondent Michelle Clifford, in Barcelona, said there were small queues outside branches of two of Spain's biggest banks-Sabadell and CaixaBank before they opened.

"Some people had decided to close all their accounts and transfer them to banks staying in the region. Others were symbolically taking out €155," she said.

A woman who had shut her account at Sabadell told her: "I came to close down my account with Banc de Sabadell. I withdrew all my money. Actually I left 40 symbolic cents just to be a nuisance to them.

"Itʼs one of many ways to protest, I know it is only symbolic, not very useful, but against the incomprehensible decisions they make we take small actions. Always peaceful," she added.

Another man told Michelle: "I came to withdraw money from the cash point. I'm conscious it is a completely symbolic action, but it is a way to express an annoyance and a grievance a lot of people have."

"Another woman, outside a branch of CaixaBank, said: 'I'll just tell you I couldn't withdraw €155 because the cash point wouldn't allow it," Michelle added.

The action was on a relatively small scale but thousands are expected to join Saturday's protest as the Spanish cabinet sets about taking control of the region.

http://news.sky.com/story/spain-to-forc ... n-11089574

[Beren]

Powerful argument. But meanwhile, back in reality, the second largest country in Western Europe, a major developed country with the world's fourteenth largest economy, and an EU and NATO member, is "flirting with another civil war"

It's sensationalism that Spain is flirting with civil war (maybe Catalonia is) and I don't even see how it is relevant here. Maybe you have romantic fantasies about the Spanish Civil War too?

[Sivad]

It's sensationalism that Spain is flirting with civil war

Yeah, because that publication is known for sensationalism. How about The Guardian? That's a good liberal rag, is it sensationalist too?

Catalonia crisis escalates as Spain set to impose direct rule within days

and I don't even see how it is relevant here.

Well its relevance would be inconvenient to your position so that's not surprising.

[Beren]

Yeah, because that publication is known for sensationalism. How about The Guardian? That's a good liberal rag, is it sensationalist too?

Catalonia crisis escalates as Spain set to impose direct rule within days



Well its relevance would be inconvenient to your position so that's not surprising.

How is it inconvenient to my position? I don't see how Spain is relevant here now, maybe you should explain it. Also, journalists envisioning another Spanish civil war when there is a political crisis in Catalonia again is natural rather than not. There will be elections and things will get back to normal sooner or later.

[Potemkin]

There will be elections and things will get back to normal sooner or later.

Precisely. The Catalan nationalists have shown that they are not willing to fight for their independence, and Spain's constitutional laws are such that nothing short of an armed insurrection will achieve that independence. There will therefore be no second Spanish Civil War, and Catalonia will not become independent.

[Sivad]

How is it inconvenient to my position? I don't see how Spain is relevant here now, maybe you should explain it.

You made the point that "the US is not a third world country in Latin America, Africa, or South-East Asia, and it's neither the late 50's" implying that these things aren't possible in modern, developed democracies. Spain is a modern developed democracy and things are going in that direction there so apparently it is a possibility.

There will be elections and things will get back to normal sooner or later.

That's a likely outcome, but it's not a certainty, the situation could plausibly escalate into violent conflict.

[Potemkin]

That's a likely outcome, but it's not a certainty, the situation could plausibly escalate into violent conflict.

Not involving the likes of Puigdemont it won't. He is clearly an invertebrate.

[Beren]

You made the point that "the US is not a third world country in Latin America, Africa, or South-East Asia, and it's neither the late 50's" implying that these things aren't possible in modern, developed democracies. Spain is a modern developed democracy and things are going in that direction there so apparently it is a possibility.

I said that civil war could be possible in the US.