Can Islam be Reformed ? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

An atheist-free area for those of religious belief to discuss religious topics.

Moderator: PoFo Agora Mods

Forum rules: No one line posts please. Religious topics may be discussed here or in The Agora. However, this forum is intended specifically as an area for those with religious belief to discuss religion without threads being derailed by atheist arguments. Please respect that. Political topics regarding religion belong in the Religion forum in the Political Issues section.
User avatar
By Donna
#14852549
I do wonder if the Germans will succeed in creating the queer feminist German Islam that Atlantis alluded to. If Germany can accomplish this, I will be impressed. They will need to be inventive though. They will have to turn Germany into the world capital of Islamic Studies and specialize in textual criticism and ijtihadi theology. Perhaps they can even combine technology with practical jurisprudence, something that currently gives the Saudis an edge. All of this of course will hinge on Germany remaining "a good place to live" (I think that's their new official slogan as of this year)
#14853194
Potemkin wrote:So is the Bible, at least in principle. One of the basic principles of the Reformation was a wish to return to the authority of the Biblical text. A similar principle lay behind the rise of Salafism and Wahabism in the 18th century, which opposed the claims of the Ottoman Empire to be the Caliphate and to have authority over the Holy Sites in Mecca and Medina. As I said, contrary to what some (presumably Protestant) American commentators have said, Islam doesn't need its version of the Reformation to 'tame' it - (i) the Protestant Reformation didn't tame Christianity, but actually made it more virulent, and (ii) Islam has already had its version of the Reformation, with the results we see before us today.


Best remark thus far. Shows at least a cursory understanding of Islam and Christianity which is grossly lacking in PoFo. Kudos.
#14853411
Best remark thus far. Shows at least a cursory understanding of Islam and Christianity which is grossly lacking in PoFo. Kudos.

You seem to be able to recognise genius when you see it, my dear fellow. You show considerable promise for a young 'un. Tell me, have you ever considered becoming a Stalinist? *puffs benignly on his Sixten Ivarsson designed Stanwell pipe* :)
#14853414
Potemkin wrote:You seem to be able to recognise genius when you see it, my dear fellow. You show considerable promise for a young 'un. Tell me, have you ever considered becoming a Stalinist? *puffs benignly on his Sixten Ivarsson designed Stanwell pipe*


Well it takes one to recongnize one, comrade. You are quite astute yourself. I do say, stalinism is far too safe for a bold young contrarian such as myself.....have you ever tried, Imperialism? Its quite delicious *puffs smugly on his Savinelli Trevi Smooth 606 KS while sipping black rum and getting his dick sucked....* 8)
#14853422
Well it takes one to recongnize one, comrade. You are quite astute yourself. I do say, stalinism is far too safe for a bold young contrarian such as myself.....have you ever tried, Imperialism? Its quite delicious

I'm British, so I regard imperialism as being rather old hat. Been there, done that, got the blood-stained t-shirt. Nothing is more calculated to terrify the upper-class British fuddy-duddies than Stalinism, my dear fellow. It just never gets old. 8)

*puffs smugly on his Savinelli Trevi Smooth 606 KS while sipping black rum and getting his dick sucked....* 8)

I approve of the black rum and the dick-sucking, of course, but an Italian factory-made mid-tier smooth pipe? It might have been forgivable had it been sand-blasted with ring grain, but really.... :roll:
#14853546
Potemkin wrote:I'm British, so I regard imperialism as being rather old hat. Been there, done that, got the blood-stained t-shirt. Nothing is more calculated to terrify the upper-class British fuddy-duddies than Stalinism, my dear fellow. It just never gets old.


You don't think advocating imperialism gets peoples' panties in a twist with all the accompanying trigger-induced seizures? Socialism is becoming the status quo, Passe, it is the Right that is now Avant-Garde. I suppose we could have an olympic-like game for intellectuals and see which of our views offends the most people by the mere stating of the premises? I am confident of my chances, but it would be epic either way.......(I smell a funny poll brewing in the dark recesses of my mind)..... I will keep you posted. 8)

Potemkin wrote:I approve of the black rum and the dick-sucking, of course, but an Italian factory-made mid-tier smooth pipe? It might have been forgivable had it been sand-blasted with ring grain, but really....


Ouch.....but it smokes soooooo nice, I don't really care if the refugees who likely produce it in the factory suffer of alienation from their labor ;)

I'll be honest, I'll smoke drug-store discount pipes when i'm working outside in the mud and weather, so its not that i'm picky per se, I just like things in there proper context. I'll have to check out the Ivarsson pipes more in-depth, I have heard good things, but have never smoked one. Rumor is they are tough to get and outrageously expensive. I have a bunch of little mouths to feed.....groceries or new pipe? Tough question indeed :D
#14853551
Stalinist Imperialism vs Christian Imperialism?

Which will win? The answer is not who has the more seductive narratives, who has the most institutional power, but who has the most children. Until men are immortal multi-generational imperial projects require multi-generations.

How many children do you have @Potemkin?

How many children do you have @Victoribus Spolia?

The answer to these questions will determine whose imperialism will win over the other and who will end up in the dustbin of history. 8)
#14853553
SolarCross wrote:How many children do you have @Victoribus Spolia?


I don't know if @Potemkin,'s variety of Stalinism is Imperialist per se....so he will have to clarify that ( I don't think it is)

But to answer your question, I have five children so far, but I do not practice contraception and will likely have 14 before my wife hits menopause based on our current timing. We have a child every 19-21 months and they are home-schooled in a rigorous classical education from the standpoint of my worldview.

My wife will be joining PoFo this week BTW. ;)
Last edited by Victoribus Spolia on 18 Oct 2017 15:45, edited 1 time in total.
#14853554
You don't think advocating imperialism gets peoples' panties in a twist with all the accompanying trigger-induced seizures? Socialism is becoming the status quo, Passe, it is the Right that is now Avant-Garde.

Not in Britain, VS. Because of its peculiar history, most British people are vaguely nostalgic about the British Empire. Not so nostalgic that we would want to go through the messy and unpleasant business of re-establishing it, but still. When I was at school, I was taught that the British Empire was a great and a good thing, that it brought civilisation, commerce and Christianity (the three 'C's) to the benighted savages of Africa, Asia and the Americas. Even to this day, Tory politicians still smugly extol the British Empire as "a great force for good". This is the status quo in British society. You would be regarded as a rather dreary fuddy-duddy in Britain, VS - it's only in the hyper-liberal (in the classical sense) USA that your imperialism makes you an edgy rebel.

I suppose we could have an olympic-like game for intellectuals and see which of our views offends the most people by the mere stating of the premises? I am confident of my chances, but it would be epic either way.......(I smell a funny poll brewing in the dark recesses of my mind)..... I will keep you posted. 8)

Offending pompous, stupid people is one of the great pleasures in life, along with fellatio and pipe-smoking. ;)

Ouch.....but it smokes soooooo nice, I don't really care if the refugees who likely produce it in the factory suffer of alienation from their labor ;)

I'll be honest, I'll smoke drug-store discount pipes when i'm working outside in the mud and weather, so its not that i'm picky per se, I just like things in there proper context. I'll have to check out the Ivarsson pipes more in-depth, I have heard good things, but have never smoked one. Rumor is they are tough to get and outrageously expensive.

Once you go artisan, you'll never go back to factory-made pipes again. And some of the best artisan pip-makers do not charge an arm and a leg for their work. One of Sixten Ivarsson's aims was to provide the general public with high quality artisanal pipes at a price they could afford. His collaboration with Stanwell was epoch-making. He's dead now, of course, but many contemporary artisan pipe makers have taken on his mantle. I suggest you check out the work of Mark Tinsky. You can pick up one of his masterpieces for less than $200.

I have a bunch of little mouths to feed.....groceries or new pipe? Tough question indeed :D

You need a new pipe, VS. Who needs to eat? I'm sure your starving family will sympathise with your dilemma. Lol. ;)
#14853565
@Potemkin
So no kids?

Do you really need to wonder why the Communist religion is all but disappeared from the world and all its imperial projects are unravelled?

Who was supposed to carry on the struggle when you are dead? It is an amazing lack of foresight, a mistake which neither the Christians nor Islamists have made.

You will be communism's very last generation, after you have gone your belief system will be in the Ozymandias club.

Image

In fact given the Islamists tactic of erasing the monuments and history wherever the triumph there may not even be an Ozymandian trace left of your former hegemony. It will be as if you never existed.
#14853684
SolarCross wrote:Stalinist Imperialism vs Christian Imperialism?

Which will win? The answer is not who has the more seductive narratives, who has the most institutional power, but who has the most children. Until men are immortal multi-generational imperial projects require multi-generations.

How many children do you have @Potemkin?

How many children do you have @Victoribus Spolia?

The answer to these questions will determine whose imperialism will win over the other and who will end up in the dustbin of history. 8)


So if someone were to have more kids than either of these two, they would win?

:excited:
#14853695
Pants-of-dog wrote:So if someone were to have more kids than either of these two, they would win?

:excited:

Luckily you aren't typical of SJWs. Or are you a muslim now?
#14853700
I often tell all my professional childless friends that I am having their kids for them and that they should be grateful.

I am, as always, as Muslim as a bacon double cheeseburger.
#14854457
@Potemkin

So is the Bible, at least in principle. One of the basic principles of the Reformation was a wish to return to the authority of the Biblical text. A similar principle lay behind the rise of Salafism and Wahabism in the 18th century, which opposed the claims of the Ottoman Empire to be the Caliphate and to have authority over the Holy Sites in Mecca and Medina. As I said, contrary to what some (presumably Protestant) American commentators have said, Islam doesn't need its version of the Reformation to 'tame' it - (i) the Protestant Reformation didn't tame Christianity, but actually made it more virulent, and (ii) Islam has already had its version of the Reformation, with the results we see before us today.


Wahhabism and Salafism does not adhere to solely Quranic texts. It's actually the complete opposite. Wahhabism and Salafism put more emphasis on the hadiths (i.e. the sunnah) than the actually Quran. I won't go into detail as to the actual theology of Wahhabism and reactionary Islam but I will leave you some food for thought. If Wahhabism was really a sect that put emphasis on the Quran, why is it under the Sunni sect which advocates for the acceptance of hadith or at least more hadith than the Shia sect? Wouldn't it be contradictory to have an ideology which advocates for disregardment of hadith to be the sub-category of a sect that advocates for the acceptance of most hadith? And theologically speaking, an ideology that disregards most hadith would be it's own sect entirely under Islam. Pretty much all Islamic sects at least agree that some form of hadith is necessary. Such an idea wouldn't be applicable to any sect in Islam. It would be it's own thing, wouldn't it?
#14854464
Religion is always changing, so yes, Islam can be reformed, and is already constantly reforming. If you look how it is in many countries like USA and Cnaada, you can see that moderate Islam is flourishing far more then radical Islam is.
#14855081
@Potemkin

Also Wahhabism was pretty much non-existent during the 18th century Ottoman Empire or it at least did not have the political power it has today. It seems to me that you don't even know the basics of Wahhabism or anything about the 18th century Ottoman Empire at all. A majority of the population of the Ottoman Empire was Sunni (which Wahhabism states are infidels and should be killed) so Wahhabism was pretty much out of the question or even was heard of during the 18th century Middle East.
By Sivad
#14855088
The societies and cultures need to be reformed to the point that Islam is demoted and ultimately displaced by rational humanism. That's what happened in Europe with Christianity and it was happening in the Middle East until the Western establishment started overthrowing the secular nationalists and backing tyrants and Islamic radicals as a "bulwark against communism."
Robert Dreyfuss talked about his book Devil’s Game: How the United States Helped Unleash Fundamentalist Islam(cspan video)

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2006/01/americas-devils-game-extremist-islam/

https://www.salon.com/2015/11/17/we_created_islamic_extremism_those_blaming_islam_for_isis_would_have_supported_osama_bin_laden_in_the_80s/

The death of Arab secularism is the story of a country that no longer exists and a world almost impossible to imagine.

That world can be glimpsed in old newsreels from the Arab cities of the 1950s and 1960s. The cities of the post-war period - Cairo, Beirut and Damascus, Baghdad and Aden - look much the same as many developing countries of the time: American-built cars, European-style suits, a certain easy mingling of men and women.

Unseen is something difficult to describe, but immediately apparent to anyone familiar with the Egypt or Yemen of today: the thick beards of men and the tightly wrapped headscarves of women - symbols of religious devotion, but also symbols of a public expression of Islam - were almost entirely absent from the new urban world then being created.

The vision of the future the men and women in those over-saturated newsreels had, how they saw their modern world unfolding, cannot easily be understood.

But it can perhaps be surmised from a joke, told by Egypt's leader Gamal Abdel Nasser to an audience in the years after the Muslim Brotherhood was accused of attempting to assassinate him. Nasser described meeting with the Brotherhood's leader in 1953 in an attempt to reconcile the group with his leadership. (Nasser doesn't mention whom he met, but it was most likely Hassan Al Hudaybi, a judge who led the group for 20 years from 1951.)

"The first thing he asked me was to make the wearing of hijab mandatory in Egypt," says Nasser, "and to force every woman walking on the street to wear a hijab." The crowd laughs and Nasser hams it up for them, looking perplexed at such an outlandish request. "Let him wear it!" shouts an audience member, and the crowd erupts in laughter and applause.

But that's not the punchline. Nasser tells Al Hudaybi he knows the Brotherhood's leader has a daughter studying medicine, and his daughter doesn't wear the hijab. "Why haven't you made her wear the hijab?" he asks, before delivering a knockout blow: "If you cannot make one girl - who is your own daughter - wear the hijab," he says, "how do you expect me to make 10 million women wear the hijab, all by myself?" The crowd roars its approval.

Nasser's joke is instructive for the world view it implies. The middle and upper classes of 1950s Egypt considered it ridiculous that the wearing of the hijab could be enshrined in law. Most did not wear it; they considered the proper role of religion to be private, outside the realm of government and politics. Nasser himself explicitly declared the same thing.

Contrast that with today's Egypt, and indeed the wider Arab world, and it is clear how much has changed in just half a century.
Last edited by Sivad on 22 Oct 2017 19:49, edited 1 time in total.

It is implausible that the IDF could not or would[…]

Moving on to the next misuse of language that sho[…]

@JohnRawls What if your assumption is wrong??? […]

There is no reason to have a state at all unless w[…]