[Godstud]

Yeah, @Rich, because going back to someplace you've already been is what dreams are made of, right?

In order to attain big things, you have to have big dreams. Dreaming of doing the same thing you did 40 years ago isn't really a big dream. It's also not very challenging. Musk may be a dreamer, but he works towards that goal, until it's realized. Trump just lives in the past.

[4cal]

I have little doubt the budget for space science has overall not been actually cut. NASA has probably simply been brought back under the purview of the NSC, as legislated by Reagan, and which has been reformed.

No doubt this probably will affect NASA's costs most likely having less administrative work. NASA has not had to operate under this hierarchical framework since 1992. Basically NASA is reporting to their old superior body yet again.

NASA didn't seem to bitch about the cuts, they were probably prepared for the NSC's reform meaning the space budget would have to be altered.

Yeah...there is no head of NASA; only an acting chief. Hard to "bitch about the cuts" when you have no official voice.

[4cal]

:roll: Yeah, @Rich, because going back to someplace you've already been is what dreams are made of, right?

In order to attain big things, you have to have big dreams. Dreaming of doing the same thing you did 40 years ago isn't really a big dream. It's also not very challenging. Musk may be a dreamer, but he works towards that goal, until it's realized. Trump just lives in the past.

Well, going back makes sense in one way only. Earth has gravity; the moon has 1/6 the gravity we have here if I recall. So it takes 1/6th the effort to leave lunar orbit as I recall the science. So if it were to take 600 pounds of thrust to leave Florida, it would take only 100 pounds of thrust to leave the moon. If you're interested in deep space travel, you can do some real damage by setting up a lunar launch platform of sorts. Beyond that, to coin a poker term, you're drawing dead. There is no mining capability, there is no terraforming that can be done. The environment is harsh to man and machine. So even if you were to wish to launch multiple missions from the lunar base, it would probably be something that would only survive on the same time span as project Apollo or the Shuttle; a few decades at the most.

The idea of lunar colonies and the like is a non-starter. There may be a tourist placement up there where a few thousand folks could be permanent or semi-permanent inhabitants but you won't see cities or worksites. No way.

[Zagadka]

Trump's promise to get back to the Moon is deeply wise and credible compared to Musk's promises about Mars.

I don't know if Trump did it out of "wisdom", but I am of the opinion that we should first have experience on Luna and orbital systems before making the much, much larger jump to Mars.

[colliric]

I envision the Moon colonies will probably be akin to artic research stations, or the ISS if it simply was placed on the moon.....

Also your post contains the main reason NASA has given for strongly approving Trump's plan.

Also Space X and Virgin Galactic have both previously announced they have plans for moon travel. Most likely given the statement NASA made on Trump's decision(avalible on their website),which was they will work with private companies, one of those companies may be involved.

NASA has also indicated it may in fact seek to work with the Russians and Chinese on a combined "International Moon Mission" led by the US.

[Zagadka]

Well, I think commercializing space is a ways away, so yea, mostly research stations and maybe supply depots or automated production, and international cooperation is crucial.

[4cal]

Well, I think commercializing space is a ways away, so yea, mostly research stations and maybe supply depots or automated production, and international cooperation is crucial.

Yeah, I read what VG has done so far....looks like a lot of well meaning platitudes. Space X seems to be more realistic with their moon plans and the leveraging the savings of reusable rockets and "tankers". The mars stuff on Space X is silly given the wind storms that we know about on the planet. I can just see a 150' tall rocket landing vertically during one of those. But hey, that is what exploration is all about; trial and error.

[foxdemon]

Well, going back makes sense in one way only. Earth has gravity; the moon has 1/6 the gravity we have here if I recall. So it takes 1/6th the effort to leave lunar orbit as I recall the science. So if it were to take 600 pounds of thrust to leave Florida, it would take only 100 pounds of thrust to leave the moon. If you're interested in deep space travel, you can do some real damage by setting up a lunar launch platform of sorts. Beyond that, to coin a poker term, you're drawing dead. There is no mining capability, there is no terraforming that can be done. The environment is harsh to man and machine. So even if you were to wish to launch multiple missions from the lunar base, it would probably be something that would only survive on the same time span as project Apollo or the Shuttle; a few decades at the most.

The idea of lunar colonies and the like is a non-starter. There may be a tourist placement up there where a few thousand folks could be permanent or semi-permanent inhabitants but you won't see cities or worksites. No way.

I find your position reasonable. The moon is harsh.

Yet there is much to be said about preparing missions outside of Earth’s gravity well.

Low orbit has the protection of Earth’s magnetic field and is above most of the gravity well. It seems to me that is a better place for a base of operations. What is required is artificial gravity to prolong human health in space. A spinning structure, 2 km in diameter and rotating about once every two minutes should provide sufficient centifugal force to mimic Earth gravity without too much difference in force between head and foot.

The same wheel structure with magnetic field and drive system would provide long endurance human interplanetary travel. So I’d go the perfected space station before the moon base.

[starman2003]

The mars stuff on Space X is silly given the wind storms that we know about on the planet. I can just see a 150' tall rocket landing vertically during one of those.

The Martian atmosphere is so thin compared to Earth's I'd be surprised if even high velocity winds could do much. Even if they could, wind/dust storms tend to occur only under perihelic conditions (which naturally don't last for much of the Martian year).
Btw if Trump gets his tax cut, it'll slash federal revenue. We're already in the red, so where's the money going to come from for something as costly as a manned lunar mission?

[4cal]

The Martian atmosphere is so thin compared to Earth's I'd be surprised if even high velocity winds could do much. Even if they could, wind/dust storms tend to occur only under perihelic conditions (which naturally don't last for much of the Martian year).
Btw if Trump gets his tax cut, it'll slash federal revenue. We're already in the red, so where's the money going to come from for something as costly as a manned lunar mission?

I'll defer to you on the wind/dust question except to say that technology hates it and whatever we send up there will be subjected to a very toxic environment.

As for the budget, you're 100% correct. Some here seem to think that an EO will just make funding appear.

[Rugoz]

Also Space X and Virgin Galactic have both previously announced they have plans for moon travel.

You mean Blue Origin not Virgin Galactic. Funny you mention SpaceX.
SpaceX would not exist today if NASA had not canceled Constellation and started funding commercial crew / commercial resupply services instead.
All that happened under the Obama administration. That doesn't mean he or the democrats are solely responsible, since space is largely a bipartisan issue in the US. Everybody agreed that Constellation would not succeed without a large increase of the NASA budget, something that was not realistic in times when everything else was being cut.

In any case, lunar landings should be affordable if the commercial model that works well for LEO is extended to the Moon. Obama's plan was to visit the Martian moons (Phobos/Deimos) in the early 30s, but landing on Mars itself was always going to be hard to achieve within the existing budget.

[Godstud]

It'd be far more expedient, and efficient, to build a ship in orbit of the earth, rather than on the moon. Far easier logistics. Zero gravity to deal with(aside from maintaining an orbit) and you could use the moon slingshot it to Mars. The moon is pretty much no big deal.

[colliric]

This is going to happen sooner than I thought....

http://www.newsweek.com/nasa-orion-spac ... ion-700218

https://www.space.com/38634-nasa-em1-mo ... tures.html

Trump has basically signed off on what NASA was already planning to do with Orion regardless of who won the election. But obviously the mission dovetails with Trump's specific election promise and the democrats including former President Clinton have antagonised NASA on returning to the moon for years. He's basically formally let NASA codify it's preexisting plan to proceed to test Orion on the Lunar surface and resetting up the NSC is something both NASA and the Trump Administration both obviously wanted.

They probably breathed a sigh of relief when Hillary lost. "Um Madam President we're going back to the moon in 2019 and there's not a damn thing you can do about it, we need this for Mars"....

After the 2019 test mission, the next one will be manned. Maybe they'll send Orion there with men aboard in 2020.

[Rugoz]

He's basically formally let NASA codify it's preexisting plan to proceed to test Orion on the Lunar surface and resetting up the NSC is something both NASA and the Trump Administration both obviously wanted.

After the 2019 test mission, the next one will be manned. Maybe they'll send Orion there with men aboard in 2020.

It smells in this thread. It smells of somebody talking about of his ass.

Orion is an in-space capsule, it cannot land on the Moon and will never land on the Moon. Setting up a deep space gateway (a small station in lunar distant retrograde orbit) as a stepping stone to Mars was NASA's plan under the Obama administration. What the Trump administration added are lunar landings, something NASA had no plans for until now.

[quetzalcoatl]

That said, I'm all for space exploration, so let's hope this is more than an empty gesture.

It is precisely "empty gesture." It will be forgotten in a week. Congress will fund no such animal as a permanent lunar base or a manned mission to Mars. Nor will Trump lift a finger to push them.

[4cal]

It smells in this thread. It smells of somebody talking about of his ass.

Orion is an in-space capsule, it cannot land on the Moon and will never land on the Moon. Setting up a deep space gateway (a small station in lunar distant retrograde orbit) as a stepping stone to Mars was NASA's plan under the Obama administration. What the Trump administration added are lunar landings, something NASA had no plans for until now.

And still doesn’t. Like the Generals at NORAD who would take the launch order and say, “Is there someone else I can talk to?” , I’m sure they got the EO filed it away somewhere.

[ness31]

Trump cuts NASA spending them makes grandiose announcements. Asinine.

You see this formula a lot in politics. I think it’s secretly how things get done

Also, while we’re in space territory may I just ask, if a Martian is from Mars what are the names of all the other inhabitants of the planets? Is a Jupitarian from Jupiter. Surely a Saturnalian is from Saturn? Right?

[Heisenberg]

An inhabitant of Jupiter would be "Jovian", I believe.

[colliric]

It smells in this thread. It smells of somebody talking about of his ass.

Orion is an in-space capsule, it cannot land on the Moon and will never land on the Moon. Setting up a deep space gateway (a small station in lunar distant retrograde orbit) as a stepping stone to Mars was NASA's plan under the Obama administration. What the Trump administration added are lunar landings, something NASA had no plans for until now.

Of cause, no one said it would land. It however will probably be the transportation vehicle and may be redesigned. Or this mission will be the first return unmanned lunar mission to be followed by a manned Orion mission, to be then followed by a future mission with a different modern lunar lander.

NASA's goal isn't just to get to Mars, it to land on Mars(and land back on the Moon too).


Edit:
Frankly they'll probably just build the Altair Lunar Lander.....

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour ... FpN6ycZujD

[mikema63]

Manned space missions are stupid and we should feel stupid for even considering paying hundreds of billions to do them when a tenth of that will grow private space industry and advance scientific programs.