[JohnRawls]

@Atlantis

What is up with your most competent negotiator David Davis? So basically what was negotiated is not "obligatory" and is supposed to be "advisory" or something? One of the most stupidest gafs that i have heard since the Kerry "They will never give up their chemical weapons" moment.

Does he understand that the council and parliament will clench his buttcheeks and now won't start 2nd phase without UK passing those "advisory" notes in to law? May must be fuming right now. Pretty epic back-stab.

[foxdemon]

@Atlantis

What is up with your most competent negotiator David Davis? So basically what was negotiated is not "obligatory" and is supposed to be "advisory" or something? One of the most stupidest gafs that i have heard since the Kerry "They will never give up their chemical weapons" moment.

Does he understand that the council and parliament will clench his buttcheeks and now won't start 2nd phase without UK passing those "advisory" notes in to law? May must be fuming right now. Pretty epic back-stab.

Do you have links?

It is not wise to comment without evidence, but then no one has every described me as wise. My guess is that elites share mutual interests but must play the public game until they can manoeuvre preceptions to the point that they can get away with the process of continuing to accumulating wealth and power into their own hands.

Just a “rule of thumb” I use when judging elite intention.

[JohnRawls]

Do you have links?

It is not wise to comment without evidence, but then no one has every described me as wise. My guess is that elites share mutual interests but must play the public game until they can manoeuvre preceptions to the point that they can get away with the process of continuing to accumulating wealth and power into their own hands.

Just a “rule of thumb” I use when judging elite intention.

http://www.euronews.com/2017/12/10/brit ... alks-davis

[Beren]

You think it lost its mind with the Brexit vote, while I think it lost its mind with the rise of industrial capitalism

This comparison seems odd to me, among others because industrial capitalism wasn't a mere political event. I'd rather make a comparison with Henry VIII who seemed to have lost his mind many times, his Brexit turned out to be a great move later though.

[Potemkin]

This comparison seems odd to me, among others because industrial capitalism wasn't a mere political event. I'd rather make a comparison with Henry VIII who seemed to have lost his mind many times, his Brexit turned out to be a great move later though.

Indeed. History, as Marx pointed out, always repeats itself: first as tragedy, and then as farce.

[Atlantis]

Fascinating how Pofo Brits are desperate to avoid the Brrr word these days. It's a sure sign that things don't go well.

Brexit - live updates: Government defeat sparks Tory infighting as Theresa May heads to EU summit

Conservative ex-cabinet minister Dominic Grieve has said he does not care about “knives being out for me” over his role in forcing changes to Theresa May’s Brexit plans, as he warned the Prime Minister she faces a second defeat.

The Tories have sacked their own vice-chairman after he helped defeat the Government over Brexit

The European Parliament's Brexit coordinator Guy Verhofstadt called yesterday's vote a "good day for democracy".

There’s lots of reaction around this morning from Tory rebels, who inflicted defeat on the Government last night. Most of them are mocking the Daily Mail’s frontage, which describes them as 11 “self-consumed malcontents” who have increased “the possibility of a Marxist in No.10”.

The IndependentTheresa May’s government was handed a defeat on the Brexit bill as 11 MPs rebelled and backed an amendment to give Parliament a much greater say in leaving the European Union (EU). Amendment seven, tabled by the former attorney general Dominic Grieve, requires any Brexit deal to be approved by a separate Act of Parliament before it can be implemented.

Meanwhile, the Daily Mail further poisons the political climate by publishing the faces of the "traitors" on it's front page.

[Potemkin]

Just as the newly confident Tories inch ahead in the polls, 11 self-consumed malcontents pull the rug from under our EU negotiators, betray their leader, party and 17.4m Brexit voters and - most damning of all - increase the possibility of a Marxist in No. 10.

I think I just jizzed in my pants.

[Beren]

Just as the newly confident Tories inch ahead in the polls, 11 self-consumed malcontents pull the rug from under our EU negotiators, betray their leader, party and 17.4m Brexit voters and - most damning of all - increase the possibility of a Marxist in No. 10.

Oh, the British sense of irony! The right-wingers pulled the UK out of the EU...to get a Marxist government installed finally!

Now I wonder if Trumpists and Brexiteers fulfil the Marxist prophecy and make their own countries Marxist first, then the UK returns to the EU and make it Marxist too.

[Potemkin]

Oh, the British sense of irony! The right-wingers pushed the UK out of the EU...to get a Marxist government installed finally!

The Revolution will be brought about by the British Right, Beren, by accident. Whoops, Revolution!

Now I wonder if Trumpists and Brexiteers fulfil the Marxist prophecy and make their own countries Marxist first, then the UK returns to the EU and make it Marxist too.

It is our historic destiny, Beren, as the sainted Marx prophesied.

[Beren]

It is our historic destiny, Beren, as the sainted Marx prophesied.

He'd lived in Britain long enough to realise that it's the British he can count on, I guess.

[Potemkin]

He'd lived in Britain long enough to realise that it's the British he can count on, I guess.

Indeed, Beren, indeed.

[B0ycey]

Now I wonder if Trumpists and Brexiteers fulfil the Marxist prophecy and make their own countries Marxist first, then the UK returns to the EU and make it Marxist too.

Are you a Marxist Beren?

I'm all for a Marxist at number 10 if it means repealing article 50, but Corbyn is no different than May on this. There solutions are the same. Both want the same things in terms of access to the single market and neither want to concede on much to do so. Also both are clueless in fixing many of the problems in leaving the EU and haven't figured out yet that the only solution to fixing any of them is to just remain in the EU.

Also, all I am hearing from Westminster from both parties is to go against Brexit is to go against the referendum result. But I believe we have already gone to court to established that the UK has a parliament (representive) democracy so let the MPs decide if we should exit Brexit I say. Stop crying about the Farageites feelings please!

[Beren]

Are you a Marxist Beren?

Well, I think dialectical materialism is right, and Marxist views on class society, class struggle, exploitation, alienation, capitalism, history, and mankind in general are also right.

Corbyn is no different than May on this. There solutions are the same. Both want the same things in terms of access to the single market and neither want to concede on much to do so. Also both are clueless in fixing many of the problems in leaving the EU and haven't figured out yet that the only solution to fixing any of them is to just remain in the EU.

Also, all I am hearing from Westminster from both parties is to go against Brexit is to go against the referendum result.

In my opinion they've both realised that the UK should remain in the EU. Corbyn as PM would be more honest on this, and as a democratic socialist he'd call for a referendum on Brexit finally.

[hartmut]

Well, I'm pretty sure the public would be surprised and confused by a referendum called again and they'd be divided on it, they wouldn't be ready for it, as well as they'd rather expect and have another snap election. There is plenty of time left for another referendum and we'll see if the government and the coalition partners can sort out their political problems without calling a snap election.

I do ask myself what a new referendum with a different outcome would mean in the leave process. Could it simply be stopped? Actually I do not know. Maybe others do? What would happen technically? But any way, I cant see "plenty of time left".
Not few Europeans are delighted by the prospect of an exit, as they think Britain up to now tended to place the European linchpin on an unpromising line.

Dear Theresa has a hard stand to make "Brexit successful" and I wouldn't like to stay in her shoes or lay in her bed.

[Atlantis]

I'm all for a Marxist at number 10 if it means repealing article 50, but Corbyn is no different than May on this.

We can't take British politicians at face value.

When the Tories took the UK into the EEC in 1973, Labour campaigned against the EEC from the opposition. When Labour gained power in 1974, they didn't really want to leave the EEC. That's why they called a referendum so as not to have to make the decision themselves. You know the outcome.

It won't be any different this time around. If David Davis didn't commission any impact studies on leaving the single market, it is because the British elite has no intention of leaving the single market.

The UK will most likely still be in the limbo of the transition phase during the next election. Meaning, nothing will have changed. If Corbyn can hold on until then, he'll use a referendum or some other device to stay in the single market so that nothing changes.

The one thing Corbyn can't do is to embark on the Brexitters strategy of all-out market deregulation and turbo-neo-liberalism. He will be much more aligned with continental social market economies than with wild-West capitalism.

[Decky]

The one thing Corbyn can't do is to embark on the Brexitters strategy of all-out market deregulation and turbo-neo-liberalism. He will be much more aligned with continental social market economies than with wild-West capitalism.

You are describing EU economic policy perfectly there fascist. The EU is a hard line capitalist body.

This is because the EU Treaties not only contain procedural protections for capitalism, as is the case in the US Constitution: they also entrench substantive policies which correspond to the basic tenets of neoliberalism. Let me give a few examples. First, Articles 107-8 TFEU empower the European Commission to vet state aids for their compatibility with the single market. This includes state aids to the public sector. The system also allows private corporations to challenge grants of state aid on competition grounds. Secondly, free movement provisions of the Treaties have been interpreted by the Court of Justice as prohibiting industrial action which “disproportionately” obstructs the free movement of goods, services, capital and workers – see the Viking and Rüffert rulings of the EU’s Court of Justice. Thirdly Article 49 TFEU grants companies the right of freedom of establishment. This includes the right to establish branches and subsidiaries in other Member States. It is difficult to imagine how nationalisation of branches and subsidiaries of companies based in other Member States would constitute a lawful limitation on freedom of establishment. For good measure Article 106 TFEU gives corporations the right to sue governments whenever any public monopoly infringes EU competition rules – including within the NHS.

None of this would matter very much if these provisions were easy to amend or repeal. However, being Treaty provisions, these policies may only be changed by agreement of all Member States. The methods of Treaty amendment are laid down in Article 48 TEU. Under the ordinary revision procedure the Member States must agree by common accord the amendments to be made to the Treaties. Under the simplified revision procedures (used to revise Union policies) the European Council shall act by unanimity. In each case the changes must be confirmed by all the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. Crucially, irrespective of which procedure is used, it only takes a single national government to veto treaty change. One would have to await a complete absence of neoliberal governments in order to change the Treaties in a socialistic direction. Such is the stuff of fantasy.

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/02 ... -possible/

[Potemkin]

In other words, if we want socialism in Britain, then we must leave the EU. Luckily, we did. Lol.

[JohnRawls]

In other words, if we want socialism in Britain, then we must leave the EU. Luckily, we did. Lol.

Funnily enough, EU is one of the few institutions in the UK that is preventing the explotation of workers.

Your presumption is that things will get worse and then better.

What if it will just get worse and worse with no end? (Like it usually has happened after the collapse of the SU)

There is not going to be any "revolution" without any outside assistance. There is no country or actor that can provide that outside assistance for the revolution anymore.

[Potemkin]

Funnily enough, EU is one of the few institutions in the UK that is preventing the explotation of workers.

Then they don't seem to have done a very good job, do they? Hmm?

Your presumption is that things will get worse and then better.

As TIG keeps saying, we are all accelerationists now.

What if it will just get worse and worse with no end? (Like it usually has happened after the collapse of the SU)

Then at least people will have no more illusions about capitalism, just as the Russian people have no more illusions about capitalism, or about the intentions of the Western ruling elite towards them.

There is not going to be any "revolution" without any outside assistance. There is no country or actor that can provide that outside assistance for the revolution anymore.

Did the French Revolution require outside assistance? Even the February 1917 Revolution in Russia was spontaneous and required no outside assistance to succeed. And the only outside assistance the Bolsheviks received was the German High Command transporting Lenin across their occupied territory in a sealed railway carriage. From that point onwards, the Bolsheviks not only received no outside assistance but were fighting against a coalition of enemy states as well as their own native reactionaries.

Besides, Marx actually predicted that a revolution in Britain or in Germany would probably succeed peacefully. And he may well turn out to have been right - after all, we may have Jeremy Corbyn soon as our Prime Minister, we are out of the EU, and the Tories are a discredited rump. It will soon be time to begin building Ingsoc....

[JohnRawls]

Then they don't seem to have done a very good job, do they? Hmm?


As TIG keeps saying, we are all accelerationists now.


Then at least people will have no more illusions about capitalism, just as the Russian people have no more illusions about capitalism, or about the intentions of the Western ruling elite towards them.


Did the French Revolution require outside assistance? Even the February 1917 Revolution in Russia was spontaneous and required no outside assistance to succeed. And the only outside assistance the Bolsheviks received was the German High Command transporting Lenin across their occupied territory in a sealed railway carriage. From that point onwards, the Bolsheviks not only received no outside assistance but were fighting against a coalition of enemy states as well as their own native reactionaries.

Besides, Marx actually predicted that a revolution in Britain or in Germany would probably succeed peacefully. And he may well turn out to have been right - after all, we may have Jeremy Corbyn soon as our Prime Minister, we are out of the EU, and the Tories are a discredited rump. It will soon be time to begin building Ingsoc....

Eu does a decent job in my opinion within the capitalist framework actually.

As for revolutions, those are 1ns in a century events if not longer. On top of that those revolution had wide spread support from the local elites also (Napoleon/French and Bolsheviks). It wasn't just the masses that did everything. There were a lot of powerful people in power in place and without those people those revolutions would have never happened. (Obviously those positions of power allowed them to relocate resources) So they did have funding, manpower etc just not in the classical outside assistance kind of way.