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By ingliz
#14878070
Ter wrote:migratory birds

Malta’s over development has done, exponentially more harm to birds and nature in general than any hunting whether illegal or not.

water

Reverse osmosis.


:)
By Nonsense
#14878610
Politiks wrote:I don't think BREXIT will happen. Honestly, they didn't bought the referendum because they are so arrogant they never thought BREXITer's would win. I hope I'm wrong but imo there will be a second referendum and EU will get the result they want.

There will not be a second referendum,only a General Election manifesto can change the result & thats not going to happen.

"The day Corbyn becomes a PM you know UK doesn't have real elections anymore"


Do you honestly think that elections make any difference?

People who think that they do are seriously deluded if they think that the outcome of an election is 'democratic', it's not, the political parties follow their own ideological course, they only require the 'key'(election win)to get power & continue doing what they have always done once they 'win'(ignore the electorate).
Read ALL the two main parties post-war election manifesto's, look at the current polemic & the dogma is as current today as it was post 1945.
As for BREXIT, the issues surrounding it, are EXACTLY the issues around the issue when the country debated joining the EEC back in 1973 when it was in the Tory election manifesto.
Edward HEATH totally IGNORED the very issues on which the 'LEAVE' vote decided that they can no longer stand membership of the EU.

Remember, the rules\Treaties have changed beyond recognition since 1973 yet, the people have never been consulted directly on whether they agree with them or not,thats why the referendum was so potent.
By Nonsense
#14878612
Decky wrote:Nonsense, we will see the rich sent to the gulags where they belong and the working class will finally be free and sovereign. No more German lizards squatting in Buckingham palace ruling over us, no more millionaires living from our labour while doing no work themselves, no more officer slugs getting paid more than real men doing real work in mines, factories and building sites. No more, channel tunnel and no more imported goods (and thus no more unemployment). We will be powerful , happy and in control of our own destinies, just like the workers of the DPRK.


I detect a whiff of sarcasm in your post,but,to be honest,apart from Harold WILSON, do you think any 'Labour' leader would contemplate either an election manifesto, or referendum, to let the people decide as the Tory Party government have done(not that I am a 'Tory', I'm not, never will be-nor 'Liberal')?

General Charles De Gaulle was absolutely correct in his stance against this country joining the Common Market,it's a pity our political 'leaders' didn't listen to him.
In FACT, the Tories decided to join because they couldn't run a whelk stall with the economy under their stewardship tanking,as usual.
By Decky
#14878652
Nonsense wrote:I detect a whiff of sarcasm in your post,but,to be honest,apart from Harold WILSON, do you think any 'Labour' leader would contemplate either an election manifesto, or referendum, to let the people decide as the Tory Party government have done(not that I am a 'Tory', I'm not, never will be-nor 'Liberal')


The people shouldn't get a choice in case they are taken in by the pro EU propaganda of the millionaire owned media. Corbyn should just withdraw us from the EU without consulting anyone, he is the will of the Proletariat made flesh and he knows it, why would he need a referendum?
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By Philby
#14878700
BBC wrote:Banks consider paying for EU access

Banks and financial firms are prepared to consider helping the government pay for access to the single market.

They will lose the ability to sell financial services across the EU from the UK after Brexit.

Several sources told the BBC that if the government decided to pay into the EU budget in return for barrier-free access, they would reluctantly consider making a contribution.

The so-called "pay to play option" has been ruled out by ministers.

It would be politically unpalatable to continue making payments to the EU and would add extra expense for business.

The finance sector has also downplayed the option. But industry sources said that while any extra cost would make the UK less competitive, losing frictionless market access to the world's largest trading block - or having to fragment their operations throughout Europe - could be worse.

"We'd have to look at the detail, but it's possible," said one insider.

"We would look to support the UK government in negotiations and if part of that meant some sort of financial contribution we'd consider it," said another.

Dangerous precedent
Publicly, finance industry groups have been loathe to raise this option for three reasons.

First, they think it effectively penalises successful exporters - the opposite of what the government purports to want.

Second, they believe agreeing to pay for admission sets a dangerous precedent for trade deals with new partners.

Third, they think other industries such as car manufacturing and pharmaceuticals should be asked to do the same and suspect the complexity of divvying up any bill would be mind-bogglingly complex.

The government is clear the UK should not have to pay to get what we already have for free - and for something the EU also values.

A Downing Street spokesman told the BBC: "The position hasn't changed - we are not going to pay for market access. There is a lot of mutual self-interest at stake here. If you listened to EU briefings last summer then the breakthrough we achieved in December was impossible. This is a negotiation."

Nevertheless, financial services chiefs have made clear there is a big potential cost to losing access to the EU. If the price for keeping it is right, some think it might be worth paying.
By Atlantis
#14879321
Philby wrote:


Yes, English banks want to continue paying into the EU budget and English industry wants to stay under EU regulations, because it would ruin the economy otherwise. It's only slime bags like Farage or Johnson, who have never done a day of decent work in their life, who don't care what it will do to people who have to work for a living.

Unfortunately, that won't work because it's a package deal in which you can't chose and pick.
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By Beren
#14879836
Season 2 Episode 2: Norway weighs in

The Guardian wrote:May faces tougher transition stance from EU amid Norway pressure

Exclusive: Norwegian officials tell Brussels they may seek radical rethink of their terms if UK has access to single market for key sectors


Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Tue 16 Jan 2018 07.29 GMT First published on Mon 15 Jan 2018 21.12 GMT


Theresa May has been hit with a double Brexit blow as the EU toughened up its terms for a transition period and Norway privately warned Brussels that giving in to the UK’s demands for a “special” trade deal could force it to rip up its own agreements with the bloc.

A paper on Michel Barnier’s demands for the transition period, leaked to the Guardian, reveals that the EU plans to insist on the free movement of people throughout the period and the inclusion of people moving to the UK before 31 December 2020 in any post-Brexit agreement on citizens’ rights.

The UK had at one time wanted the agreement on citizens to be limited to people who moved to the UK before 29 March 2017, when Theresa May triggered article 50.

The EU also insists that the UK will only continue to enjoy the benefits of trade agreements with non-EU countries if “authorised” by Brussels. The UK will also effectively be kept to the terms of the common fisheries policy, as previously revealed by the Guardian.

It is understood that the EU is not willing to commit to settling the terms of a transition deal by March, as hoped for by the UK.

Senior EU officials told the Guardian they were only cautiously confident of getting agreement by “the first half of the year – if we don’t run into substantive difficulties”.

EU sources said May was nevertheless likely to accept the terms, knowing that the greater victory lies in making ground on the UK’s demands over the future relationship.

However, the Guardian has learned that repeated representations have been made to EU officials by Oslo over their fears that an overly generous offer to the UK will fuel calls in Norway to renegotiate its ties with the bloc, according to senior diplomatic sources.

The Nordic intervention presents a fresh hurdle for Theresa May’s aim of delivering a “deep and special partnership” with the EU that goes beyond the scope of a Canada-style free trade deal, an arrangement under which significant barriers to trade in goods and services remains.

Norway makes larger financial contributions to the EU per capita than the UK and accepts free movement of people in order to have access to the single market. But it has no decision-making role in Brussels’ institutions.

Norway’s Eurosceptic Centre party, which wants to pull the country out of the European Economic Area in favour of a free trade deal, doubled its vote in last year’s election. Although there is a general consensus in favour of EEA membership among the other main parties, the junior member of the current coalition government, Progress, has pushed for a renegotiation in the past.

A senior official said: “[The Norwegians] are following this very closely to make sure that we are not giving the UK a much more favourable deal.”

EU officials fear, in the first instance, Norway could become more demanding in future talks over a fisheries arrangement once the UK pulls out of the common fisheries policy and tri-lateral negotiations over access to seas and quota sizes begin.

A spokesman for the Norwegian government declined to comment.

With officials on both sides of the Channel gearing up for a year of tough negotiations on a transition period and future relationship, positions are being crystallised in EU capitals and in Brussels about the future. The Guardian can further reveal:

  • France is fighting off attempts by Luxembourg, among other countries, to allow UK-based financial services a “backdoor” to single market access post-Brexit by allowing City of London firms to gain so-called “passporting” rights through continental shell companies allowing real operations to continue in the UK. The internal row is viewed by EU officials as a precursor to a more divisive debate within the 27 over what to offer London on financial services, with senior officials warning that, as it stands, the EU will “not go very far”.

  • Brussels is not making preparations for a second UK referendum, with senior officials regarding it as highly improbable. In the event of a remain vote, however, key member states would probably seek to legally bind the UK into not calling a third referendum in the foreseeable future, officials believe.

  • Member states have ruled out allowing British carriers the freedom to fly passengers and luggage between destinations on the continent post-Brexit, with UK carriers to be permitted only four of the nine “freedoms” to operate they currently enjoy. There are also plans in the negotiations on fisheries to link access to British waters for EU vessels with access to the European market for UK importers.

  • EU leaders are taking control of the talks on the future trading relationship and are expected to incorporate stricter enforcement mechanisms than in any trade deal previously signed to ensure a “level playing field” in terms of levels of tax and state aid.

The EU’s tough stance, largely led by France and Germany, will cause dismay among UK ministers. During a visit to Berlin last week, the chancellor, Philip Hammond, beseeched leaders to signal “a willingness to work together” and described the EU as “paranoid” about the consequences of giving the UK a special deal over the weekend.

However, in Brussels it is the mood music coming from London that is causing concern ahead of talks on the transition period that will come once the European council has adopted negotiating directives on 29 February.

Downing Street’s Brexit adviser, Olly Robbins, suggested in a recent cabinet meeting that the UK would operate on three levels post-Brexit with the EU, with some sectors being entirely free from Brussels regulation while others were fully converged to allow frictionless trade. In a third “basket” of sectors, the two sides could share the same goals but “achieve them through different means”.

One senior EU official said: “It’s what we always thought the UK would be going for and that’s why we have been quite clear that we don’t think that it is on.”

I wonder if this is the end of May's soft-Brexit concept.

After watching Darkest Hour many Brits will think it's time for a Norwegian Campaign again, I guess. :lol:
By Rugoz
#14879880
Typical EU-fanboy spin on the story. Norway of course wants the UK to get a good deal because it could potentially demand the same.

The longer this "charade" goes on, the more I think Brexit should happen. It will serve as a blueprint for others to leave the block if they want to.
By hartmut
#14879906
Rugoz wrote:....
The longer this "charade" goes on, the more I think Brexit should happen. It will serve as a blueprint for others to leave the block if they want to.

What "blueprint"? Is there any?
Almost everybody was stunned to realize that the Brexitiers had no plan in case of success.
Bojo afterwards stumbled instantly in his statements,
and Farage preferred in the wake of that vote a private life.
(Meanwhile his diaper is so much filled, that he timidly promotes a second referendum.)

So, there was no plan by those who conjured a complicated situation for UK.
If that remarkable start should turn into being a good "blueprint",
only than responsible guys and folks can copy it in other regions of our continent.

If not, never the less,
it well could serve as a copied and winning 'blueprint of folly'.
Let us hope for the best future for our children.
By Rugoz
#14879913
hartmut wrote:Let us hope for the best future for our children.


I don't think the EU as it is represents the "best future for our children". Individual countries should be able to opt out of an experiment that is largely driven by the hubris of political elites. The UK will do Europe a favor by keeping the door open for everyone.
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By Beren
#14879923
hartmut wrote:Bojo afterwards stumbled instantly in his statements,
and Farage preferred in the wake of that vote a private life.

I wonder whether BoJo or Farage would be the better Churchill. It shouldn't be hard if Gary Oldman could do it too. :excited:
By Atlantis
#14879935
Rugoz wrote:Typical EU-fanboy spin on the story. Norway of course wants the UK to get a good deal because it could potentially demand the same.

The longer this "charade" goes on, the more I think Brexit should happen. It will serve as a blueprint for others to leave the block if they want to.

True, we should finally end the thicket of 500 odd treaties with Switzerland and replace it with a single Norway-style agreement in which the Swiss get guaranteed single market access for making a fair contribution into the EU, which is commensurate with the prosperity of the country. Time to stop all those parasites sucking wealth from the EU. As long as the Swiss refuse to see reason, we'll have to put the thumbscrews on their financial institutions.

hartmut wrote:What "blueprint"? Is there any?

Apart from wanting to "have their cake and eat it too" the Brexit government has no plan.

They are now asking the EU to propose a plan, because they don't know what to do next. The EU has always been crystal clear about what's on offer. That's not going to change.

Even hardcore Brexitters like Farage now understand there is no Brexit that won't substantially damage the country. He knows full well that no electorate, no matter how thick, will fall for those Brexit lies a 2nd time. It's a way of engineering a U-turn, while maintaining appearances, even though everybody knows he is lying through the teeth.

Beren wrote:

It's not just Norway, many of the EU's trade partners have Most Favored Nation clauses (MFN) which will allow them to demand the same single market access as the UK would get under a Free Trade Agreement (FTA). Do the Brits really think the EU is going to damage the single market and screw EU members just to pamper the Brits? Oh the hubris of 3 centuries of empire!
By hartmut
#14879945
Beren wrote:I wonder whether BoJo or Farage would be the better Churchill. It shouldn't be hard if Gary Oldman could do it too. :excited:

:lol:
So it is..
.. and in that very perception Winston's foresighted bet
for the future is quite different from those, who obviously have less inspiration, but louder voice.
By Nonsense
#14880113
Decky wrote:The people shouldn't get a choice in case they are taken in by the pro EU propaganda of the millionaire owned media. Corbyn should just withdraw us from the EU without consulting anyone, he is the will of the Proletariat made flesh and he knows it, why would he need a referendum?


CORBYN may 'believe' that he is the 'will of the people', the people may differ if\when he wins power.

I do not subscribe to your assertion on not needing a referendum, or more importantly,as well as more legitimately, a Manifesto Policy Promise to withdraw & I do not believe that he is not 'sitting on the fence' as to being sincere on the issue.

The thing with the CORBYN-MOMENTUM situation is, they(MOMEMTUM)may have CORBYN's back, but CORBYN's Shadow Cabinet is full of the 'BLAIRITE' tendency, that fools no one interested in a radically different government than the current garbage.
The above exist because of CORBYN's lack of majority support within the Party.

In my opinion, CORBYN is someone who looks to which way the political wind is blowing on events, policy issues,he is NOT a 'leader' that is capable of giving political direction on the strength of his beliefs whilst an opposition leader.

I think that,although he does have some 'good' ideas, they are outweighed by the rest of them, such as immigration policies, 'equality ' & others.
I could give him some business insight regarding re-nationalisation,in ensuring that it is achieved with the absolute minimum cost,unfortunately, for someone who is always quoting someone else's problems in PMQ's,resulting from government policies at the personal level, I don't think that(as with Gordon BROWN)he is capable of listening, or that it goes in one ear & straight out of the other.
By Decky
#14880216
Nonsense wrote:CORBYN may 'believe' that he is the 'will of the people', the people may differ if\when he wins power.

I do not subscribe to your assertion on not needing a referendum, or more importantly,as well as more legitimately, a Manifesto Policy Promise to withdraw & I do not believe that he is not 'sitting on the fence' as to being sincere on the issue.

The thing with the CORBYN-MOMENTUM situation is, they(MOMEMTUM)may have CORBYN's back, but CORBYN's Shadow Cabinet is full of the 'BLAIRITE' tendency, that fools no one interested in a radically different government than the current garbage.
The above exist because of CORBYN's lack of majority support within the Party.

In my opinion, CORBYN is someone who looks to which way the political wind is blowing on events, policy issues,he is NOT a 'leader' that is capable of giving political direction on the strength of his beliefs whilst an opposition leader.

I think that,although he does have some 'good' ideas, they are outweighed by the rest of them, such as immigration policies, 'equality ' & others.
I could give him some business insight regarding re-nationalisation,in ensuring that it is achieved with the absolute minimum cost,unfortunately, for someone who is always quoting someone else's problems in PMQ's,resulting from government policies at the personal level, I don't think that(as with Gordon BROWN)he is capable of listening, or that it goes in one ear & straight out of the other.


Nationalisation at minimum cost is hardly rocket science. Open the state armories to momentum and send them to take what is rightfully ours by force, the Tories, the capitalists, the landlords will surrender everything they own when they are faced with Corbyn's red guard!

Image

What was once will be again.
By Atlantis
#14880225
Nonsense wrote:CORBYN may 'believe' that he is the 'will of the people', the people may differ if\when he wins power.

It doesn't matter what Corbyn believes. If he doesn't mess up completely, he has a historic opportunity to win thanks to the Brexit catastrophe of the Tories. But Brexit only makes sense with a Tory neo-con policy. Cutting down labour protection and other EU regulation, social dumping, tax competition, all-out privatization according to the Tories Brexit blueprint isn't on for Labour. Anyways, Labour is very pro-EU. They will just find a workaround, call another referendum, drag out the transition period, go for EU membership under another name, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

@Decky will have to vote Tory if he wants to save Brexit. :lol:
By Atlantis
#14880235
Beren wrote:He considers voting UKIP. :excited:

Ideologically he has been aligned with Ukip for some time now, but since Ukip votes don't count in the UK, there is no point in voting for them.
User avatar
By Beren
#14880236
Atlantis wrote:Ideologically he has been aligned with Ukip for some time now, but since Ukip votes don't count in the UK, there is no point in voting for them.

It was the EP elections when UKIP votes counted. :lol:
User avatar
By Beren
#14880998
The Guardian wrote:Macron: bespoke trade deal possible if UK accepts 'preconditions'

French president says conditions for access to single market are strict and non-negotiable

Nicola Slawson

Sat 20 Jan 2018 16.06 GMT First published on Sat 20 Jan 2018 11.49 GMT

Emmanuel Macron has said it would be possible for Britain to secure a bespoke trade deal but only if the UK accepts certain “preconditions”.

The French president said that while a special solution could be secured, full access to the single market without accepting its rules was “not feasible”.

The comments were made during an interview recorded for BBC One’s The Andrew Marr Show on Sunday. Macron has been in the UK for his first visit since taking office.

On Thursday, at the end of a joint press conference with Theresa May at Sandhurst military training college, he rejected the idea of a tailored Brexit deal for Britain’s financial services sector. Macron said full access to EU markets would not be possible unless the UK paid into the EU budget and accepted all its rules.

In the interview with Marr, he said there was “a competition between different countries” to attract financial services companies in the future and that France wanted “to attract the maximum activity”.

The Brexit secretary, David Davis, has said he is seeking a “Canada plus plus plus” arrangement, based on the EU-Canada trade treaty, but with additional access for services. However, EU negotiators have stressed that Britain would not be allowed to “cherry-pick” sectors.

Pressed on whether there would be a bespoke special solution for the UK, Macron said: “Sure, but … this special way should be consistent with the preservation of the single market and our collective interests."

“And you should understand that you cannot, by definition, have the full access to the single market if you don’t tick the box.”

He added: “So it’s something perhaps between this full access and a trade agreement.”

He stressed that the UK would not be able to gain access to the single market without first agreeing to “preconditions”, which would include freedom of movement, budget contributions and the jurisdiction of the European court of justice.

He said: “There should be no cherry-picking in the single market because that’s a dismantling of the single market."

“As soon as you decide not to join the [EU] preconditions it’s not a full access. What is important is to not make people believe that it is possible to [have your cake and eat it].”

His comments were later clarified in a statement released by the French embassy on Twitter. “The president makes it very clear in his interview that conditions for accessing the single market are strict and non-negotiable,” it said.

“As an alternative to this full access, he specifically mentions an ambitious trade agreement of the type negotiated with Canada (obviously adapted to the UK, as every bilateral trade agreement is unique) but not a cherry-picking approach whereby the UK would have the advantages of access to the European single market without what is required in return.

“The president also recalls in this interview that the negotiations will be managed by a single European negotiator.”

In the interview, which will be broadcast in full on Sunday morning, Macron also said the door was still open for Brexit to be reversed, saying EU member states would become 27 “unhappily”.

Asked if it was inevitable that Britain would leave, he replied: “I mean, it’s on your own. It depends on you. I mean, I do respect this vote, I do regret this vote, and I would love to welcome you again.”

“The president makes it very clear in his interview that conditions for accessing the single market are strict and non-negotiable,” - He definitely means to be very clear on the consequences. :)

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