U.S. to Recognize Jerusalem as Israel’s Capital - Page 37 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14880100
noir wrote:East Jerrusalem was "Arab", only between 1948 to 1967 wars, after the Jordanian ethnic cleansing of its Jewish old commuinity.


1/Are you seriously argue,y because jews were ethnical cleansed form Jerusalem they have a claim to it? Because if you take that line are you asking Israel to hand back all Arab majority areas from 1948?

2/ Were the figures to support your claim? Often the figures cheat by only counting Jews v Muslims just excusing Christian palestinians. For most of the last 100 years Jews have been a minority in Jerusalem.
#14880102
LehmanB wrote:Thanks for the UN's PDF, I have looked through the "migration" tables for some years, and it needs a sharper look since I had a trouble collecting data without plunging into it. It does not seperates Jews and Arabs, it sometimes concludes only overseas immigration, and in some years conclude palestine et transjordan together in all the datas, or doesn't show immigration table at all. So I couldn't summerize coherent data out of it.


Don't need an immigration table. Take the population at the first British census. calculate the growth rate each year totes second census compare the two figures and what remains is the immigration deduct known Jewish migration and see what remains.
#14880104
Europeans and Jews have the most accurate stats ? :lol: :lol:
Dude, a single look at the estimation Europeans and Jews claimed and you can tell its bullshit.
There are official records that were collected both in registration and censuses and it shows that European estimation were false, and it generally tended to inflate the number of Jews against all other groups (Muslims and Christians) by a large margin.
#14880111
pugsville wrote:Don't need an immigration table. Take the population at the first British census. calculate the growth rate each year totes second census compare the two figures and what remains is the immigration deduct known Jewish migration and see what remains.

Are tables of Arab growthrate from other sources (wiki etc), are based on these data? Cause these suggests a higher growthrate of Arab population compares to the region. Which is of course partly because of development. My bigger problem though is Brits didn't count the population often, nor maintained a border control to prevent arrivals. So it leads to big gaps of the true numbers (Except accurate data on Jews). I know 115,000 Jews arrived illegaly during British mandate, and I have no paralel data on Arabs. I know exactly how many Jews were, never how many Arabs except few occasions of door to door counting. I have holes. Today there is a gap of 1.5 million between estimations today (!), although the IDF did count them in 1991. So what did you concluded from counting the growthrate of total estimate population reducing Jewish arrivals- the growthrate isn't higher than Syrian growthrate? If the Arab population grew in 30 years from half a million to more than a million~, whereas the middle eastern Arab population had much lower growthrate back than, what does it shows, except they have a good time with Jews :lol: ?

pugsville wrote:
1/Are you seriously argue,y because jews were ethnical cleansed form Jerusalem they have a claim to it? Because if you take that line are you asking Israel to hand back all Arab majority areas from 1948?

2/ Were the figures to support your claim? Often the figures cheat by only counting Jews v Muslims just excusing Christian palestinians. For most of the last 100 years Jews have been a minority in Jerusalem.

Where Arabs conquered they did massacred Jews. Just a fact.
Most Jews arrived in modern Zionism whereas Jews were a minority here, as anasward showed in his figures that Jews were less than 15% of the population here, which was extremely small in total. This land was relatevely deserted, thats for sure. In any case, any assumption of Arab immigration indicates there is a large portion of locals, whereas vast majority of Jews immigrated in the 20th centuary. There is no argue on this, just an argue what exactly is "palestinians".
Last edited by LehmanB on 17 Jan 2018 13:49, edited 1 time in total.
#14880114
There is no argue on this, just an argue what exactly is "palestinians".


Most of the Palestinians did not originate in the land and this is “evident from the family name of many Palestinians: al-Masri - (Egypt), al-Iraqi – (Iraq), al-Trabelsi – (Tripoli, Lebanon), al-Khurani – (southern Syria), al-Tzurani – (Tyre [Tzur], Lebanon), al-Tzidoni – (Sidon, Lebanon), al-Zarkawi – (Zarqa, Jordan), etc. Does this mean that the Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Iraquis are also descendents of the Canaanites and Jebusites?” (Dr Mordecai Kedar)
#14880115
noir wrote:Most of the Palestinians did not originate in the land and this is “evident from the family name of many Palestinians: al-Masri - (Egypt), al-Iraqi – (Iraq), al-Trabelsi – (Tripoli, Lebanon), al-Khurani – (southern Syria), al-Tzurani – (Tyre [Tzur], Lebanon), al-Tzidoni – (Sidon, Lebanon), al-Zarkawi – (Zarqa, Jordan), etc. Does this mean that the Egyptians, Lebanese, Jordanians and Iraquis are also descendents of the Canaanites and Jebusites?” (Dr Mordecai Kedar)

Their whole culture, and even flag, is pan-Arabic. Mahmud Abbas is named after Iraqi decendents, and Arafat was born in Cairo.
What I know is Gazans are mostly Egyptians; Bedouines are pan- Saudis. However the proper "palestinians" -Israeli Arabs+West Bank, are rather a mixture of locals, local Jews who were Islamized, and neighbours. I don't know percentages of blend.
#14880120
And he says the Jews are fabricating the histoty, after so many years he probably believe in it. Far worse many Western are got into their lies

https://bbcwatch.org/2017/12/18/bbc-rep ... narrative/

BBC reports the parts of Abbas’ OIC speech that fit its narrative
Like BBC World Service radio, on December 13th the BBC News website produced a report on that day’s meeting of the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation in Turkey.

Titled “Muslim nations urge recognition of East Jerusalem as Palestinian capital“, the article opened with a summary of the meeting:

“The leaders of 57 Muslim nations have called on the world to recognise “the State of Palestine and East Jerusalem as its occupied capital”.

An Organisation of Islamic Co-operation communique declares US President Donald Trump’s decision to recognise the city as Israel’s capital as “null and void”.

It also says the move has signalled Washington’s withdrawal from its role in the Middle East peace process.”

The initial version of the report focused on remarks made by the Turkish president while unquestioningly amplifying his propaganda.

“Mr Erdogan also again accused Israel of being a “state of terror”. […]

“Those who fight with their friends forget to fight with their enemies,” he added. “We need a diplomatic solution. We have to stop Israel gaining more land from Palestine day by day. And we must not accept the policies and attitude Israel has been displaying day by day.”

Later versions of the report – which once again promoted the partisan map of Jerusalem produced by B’tselem – included remarks from Mahmoud Abbas.

“Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas earlier said the UN should take over.

In a speech to the OIC summit in Istanbul, Mr Abbas said it would be “unacceptable” for the US to be the mediator “since it is biased in favour of Israel”.

The Palestinians had engaged with the Trump administration in an attempt to agree “the deal of the century”, he noted, but had instead “got the slap of the century”.”

BBC audiences were not, however, informed of Abbas’ negation of Jewish history in Jerusalem, which he described in his speech as “a Palestinian Arab Muslim Christian city”.

Neither were BBC audiences informed that the long since unelected president of the Palestinian Authority went off script in his address to accuse Jews of ‘faking history’.

“In his speech before the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) Wednesday, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas charged that Jews are “really excellent in faking and counterfeiting history and religion.”

According to a video of the speech, which was uncovered by the blog Israelly Cool!, Abbas, at one point said:

‘I don’t want to discuss religion or history because they are really excellent in faking and counterfeiting history and religion. But if we read the Torah it says that the Canaanites were there before the time of our prophet Abraham and their existence continued since that time. This is in the Torah itself. But if [inaudible] would like to fake this history, they are really masters in this and it is mentioned in the holy Quran they fabricate truth and they try to do that and they believe in that but we have been there in this location for thousands of years.'”

As pointed out at the Tablet:

“Typically, Abbas presents his critiques of Israel as anti-Zionist rather than anti-Jewish. But of course, the Qur’an does not mention Zionists or Zionism—a modern political movement. It mentions Jews. Thus, according to Abbas, it is Jews who are “really excellent in faking and counterfeiting history and religion,” who “fabricate truth,” and who “are really masters in this.” Ironically, in this passage, Abbas was attempting to argue that the modern Palestinian people is actually descended from the biblical Canaanites, a dubious claim with little evidence to support it. Thus, he accused Jews of being fabricators of history while engaging in the same.”

Just as BBC audiences are never told about Abbas’ personal role in the PA’s incitement to violence and glorification of terrorism or his refusal to recognise the Jewish state, they likewise do not hear anything about his longstanding denial of Jewish history in Jerusalem.

After all, such information would contradict the BBC’s exclusively promoted narrative of hard done by Palestinians desperate for a ‘two-state solution’.

The New York Times adds:

“Testing his audience’s attention, Mr. Abbas also gave a lengthy history lecture reaching back to the 17th century, saying that Oliver Cromwell had first proposed shipping European Jews to the Holy Land, before tracing the beginning of Zionism to what he called the 19th-century journalist and activist Theodor Herzl’s efforts to “wipe out Palestinians from Palestine.”

“This is a colonial enterprise that has nothing to do with Jewishness,” Mr. Abbas said. “The Jews were used as a tool under the concept of the promised land — call it whatever you want. Everything has been made up.”” [emphasis added]

There is of course nothing new about Abbas’ denial of Jewish history and his attempts to portray Israel as a European colonialist implant: such propaganda has been spread by the Palestinian Authority for years.

Unfortunately, there is also nothing novel about a BBC report on a speech made by the Palestinian president in which the parts of his remarks that do not fit the corporation’s chosen narrative are erased from audience view: only last month the BBC News website did the exact same when reporting on an address delivered by Abbas in Turkey.



The BBC WS finds a use for the word terror, misleads on Jerusalem

Another important part of the context to this story is of course Jerusalem’s historical background. As is more often than not the case in BBC content, the writer of this report would apparently have readers believe that the city’s history began in June 1967:

“Israel has occupied East Jerusalem since the 1967 Middle East war. It annexed the area in 1980 and sees it as its exclusive domain.

Israel is determined that Jerusalem be its eternal, indivisible capital. But Palestinians want East Jerusalem to be the capital of a future state.”

Similar wording was seen in a BBC report relating to similar subject matter published six months ago and then as now, no effort was made to inform audiences of the relevant fact that the city was divided for the first time in its long history when Jordan belligerently conquered parts of Jerusalem in 1948 and that the subsequent 19 year Jordanian occupation was not recognised by the international community.


Mark Lowen’s claim that the “legal status” of Jerusalem is already defined by the UN as “the capital of two future states” is clearly inaccurate and misleading to audiences. Just days before, the UN’s Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process stated that the city’s status depends on negotiations between the parties concerned.

“The United Nations position was clear, he emphasized. “Jerusalem is a final status issue for which a comprehensive, just and lasting solution must be achieved through negotiations between the two parties and on the basis of relevant United Nations resolutions and mutual agreements.””

Coomarasamy: “And interestingly they talk about the potential this decision has to increase terrorism – I guess sort of using the sort of language that Donald Trump, they hope, will resonate with him.”

BBC’s Turkey correspondent Mark Lowen: “Yeah, I suppose so. I mean they accuse the Israelis of…Turkey’s accused the Israelis of terrorising Palestinians and Turkey said that by supporting Israel the Americans – or the US – is complicit to terror. So I suppose yeah, they’re kind of taking a tone that Donald Trump might listen to or might hear but probably not heed.”

Remarkably the BBC – which of course serially refrains from describing terror attacks on Israelis as terrorism (supposedly in order to avoid appearing “to be taking sides“) and uses the euphemism ‘militants’ to describe terror organisations such as Hamas, the PIJ and Hizballah – obviously has no problem with unquestioning and uncritical repetition and amplification of the Turkish president’s use of the word terror for the purpose of delegitimisation and defamation of Israel.


https://bbcwatch.org/2017/12/18/the-bbc ... jerusalem/
#14880176
noir wrote:And he says the Jews are fabricating the histoty...

UNESCO has said the same thing many times.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 61366.html

Famous celebrities are frequently required to 'invent' some mythological history for themselves in order to justify their unequal treatment in regards to income and fame. Same with Israel.
#14880360
QatzelOk wrote:UNESCO has said the same thing many times.

:lol:
And than I have to count history through UN papers. :lol:

Seriously, pugsville, I do respect British documenting, but you have to show me who claims its "rubbish" that there was Arab immigration (more than minor numbers). Cause you didn't count Jewish illegal immigration either, we made data on that..
#14880531
it is Israel alone which chooses to

bomb civilians

Not correct and the Arabs will call all their terrorist "civilians"
, shoot demonstrators,

only if they endanger lives
demolish homes

of the terrorists
raze farmland

??
uproot olive trees

those are unauthorised revenge actions by Israeli civilians after terrorist attacks by the Arabs
banish refugees

illegal refugees, like they are expelled in many countries
imprison children

only the naughty ones
torture detainees

another rubbish accusation from wayward fake news organisations and of course from Arab sources also
build settlements

agreed
codify racism

yes, throw some insults, see what sticks
strip-search travelers

safety procedure, some carry weapons
withhold medical treatment

provide evidence for this claim,
deploy chemical weapons

tear gas ? Sometimes necessary when the Arabs run riot
dump toxic waste in Palestinian villages

provide evidence for this claim
#14880596
I mostly agree with Ter. Israel is the victim of a two thousand year propaganda campaign to start with.

I particularly like the "imprison children" nonsense. Note to everyone. A 14 year old can kill you dead as a door nail and a rock is a deadly weapon.

On any given day in the US there are 10,000 children imprisoned in adult facilities. There are 3000 children doing life without parole in the US. There are 60,000 Americans 18 or younger living in juvenile detention centers in the US, 75% of them for non-violent offenses. We arrest and prosecute over 2 million children every year in the US.

Nobody wants to talk about the 15 year old girl in prison in Iran under sentence of death who is simply waiting to turn 18 so she can be hanged. This is common throughout the region. The utter hypocrisy of Islamic nations pointing a finger at Israel in this regard while their prisons are filled with children, gays are executed and violent "justice" the order of the day is preposterous. Compared to the surrounding nations, Israel is Sweden.
#14880670
Drlee wrote:Israel is the victim of a two thousand year propaganda campaign to start with.


The state of Israel is not a victim, but something that was created 7 decades ago on top of a country and people called Palestine and Palestinians. Amongst those people that were dispossessed and ethnically cleansed and killed were your fellow Christians, but I guess here's a good time to remind you of your selective-Christianity.

I particularly like the "imprison children" nonsense. Note to everyone. A 14 year old can kill you dead as a door nail and a rock is a deadly weapon.


Israel regularly imprisons children so how is this nonsense? There's another thread about the story of Ahed Tamimi, where your buddy Ter denied the abuse and torture of Palestinian children in Israeli prisons. I presented him a number of reports from various human rights organizations detailing Israel's crimes against Palestinian children, but Ter lost the ability to respond to that and instead popped up ITT with further bullshit.

On any given day in the US there are 10,000 children imprisoned in adult facilities. There are 3000 children doing life without parole in the US. There are 60,000 Americans 18 or younger living in juvenile detention centers in the US, 75% of them for non-violent offenses. We arrest and prosecute over 2 million children every year in the US.


This is bad too.

Nobody wants to talk about the 15 year old girl in prison in Iran under sentence of death who is simply waiting to turn 18 so she can be hanged.


We can talk about it if we know about it. Make a thread about it and let's discuss this thing that's also bad. Or we can talk about how you just say shit to deflect from Israel's crimes, which is all this really is.

Compared to the surrounding nations, Israel is Sweden.


:lol:

Israel is increasingly being seen as a pariah around the world for its continuous crimes against Palestinians, it has an international boycott movement against it which is supported by a number of cities, including New Orleans (just recently), it's violated more UN resolutions than any other state combined and you unfortunately have your head in the sand because of your bigotry towards Muslims, even though Palestinians are Christians too. This is all this is it. When you stumble in with a huff and a puff about what a victim Israel is, I can guarantee you most people here are laughing at your nonsense since reality shows us otherwise.
#14880738
skinster wrote: There's another thread about the story of Ahed Tamimi, where your buddy Ter denied the abuse and torture of Palestinian children in Israeli prisons

Yes, your "child" heroes of sixteen and seventeen years old are suddenly called "children".
What you and your ilk call "abuse" and "torture" is not even defined, and you omit the part where they kill and maim Israeli citizens and incite to violence. It is good to lock those young adults up for at least a couple of years.
skinster wrote: I presented him a number of reports from various human rights organizations detailing Israel's crimes against Palestinian children, but Ter lost the ability to respond to that and instead popped up ITT with further bullshit.

Your re-tweeting and citing dreck from anti-Israel web sites is the real bullshit.
Interesting that the real torturers, killers and terrorists are present in Pakistan, your country of birth, but you are singularly obsessed with what is happening in Israel and the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.
#14880757
Ter wrote:Yes, your "child" heroes of sixteen and seventeen years old are suddenly called "children".


You are so petty to even argue this aspect of the case.

What you and your ilk call "abuse" and "torture" is not even defined


Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Defence for Children International, the UN, etc., are not really my ilk, but abuse and torture in their reports are defined. Of course you've never read the reports, so stop pretending as if you did.

and you omit the part where they kill and maim Israeli citizens and incite to violence.


Why would this be in reports of Israeli torture and abuse in their jails? We are talking about something specific and now you're rattling on about something unrelated and likely hypothetical as a deflection tactic, which is awfully obvious and boring.

Your re-tweeting and citing dreck from anti-Israel web sites is the real bullshit.
Interesting that the real torturers, killers and terrorists are present in Pakistan, your country of birth, but you are singularly obsessed with what is happening in Israel and the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.


And there it is again, talking about something unrelated - such as where I am born - as if only Pakistani-born people speak the truth about Israel's many crimes...because they hate Jews. We know that's not true; most of the articles I share on Israeli crimes come from Jewish writers, which I do on purpose because of racists like you, who project your own racism by acting as though I'm arguing from a position of antisemitism, which is obviously not true because I'm not a racist and there's nothing you can quote me on which suggests that I am. Attempting to accuse one of racism while supporting a state that is institutionally racist with it's denial of political and civil rights to millions of people it controls, simply for not being Jews, is really quite dumb at this stage, but I understand it's all you have.
#14880761
skinster wrote:You are so petty to even argue this aspect of the case.

Oh but it is not petty at all..
The "children" you so much talk about and try to defend are killing and maiming Israeli citizens by throwing rocks and using catapults or knifing bystanders.

skinster wrote:Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the Defence for Children International, the UN, etc., are not really my ilk, but abuse and torture in their reports are defined

All those are biased, infiltrated by leftists and Muslims.

skinster wrote:Of course you've never read the reports, so stop pretending as if you did.

Indeed I have other things to do than read shite from biased idiotic reports. I never claimed to have read them.
skinster wrote:Why would this be in reports of Israeli torture and abuse in their jails?

This is the reason those young adults are in jail, so don't claim that it is not relevant.
skinster wrote: I'm not a racist and there's nothing you can quote me on which suggests that I am. Attempting to accuse one of racism while supporting a state that is institutionally racist with it's denial of political and civil rights to millions of people it controls, simply for not being Jews, is really quite dumb at this stage, but I understand it's all you have.

I have never accused you of being racist or antisemite but I know that in countries like Pakistan, anti-Israel hatred is most probably fed to the babies with their mother milk. That is why your ilk concentrates on situations in Israel but not on MUCH worse situations in Muslim-majority countries where gays are thrown off of roofs or hanged, where people just disappear, where prisoners are REALLY tortured, where people get lynched on the basis of rumours, where societies stink with racism (hence the succes of skin-whitening creams), and so on and so forth. But you only see injustice in Israel, a country that is under existential threat from a number of Muslim-majority countries.
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