Defying US, Paris and Berlin stand firm on EU defence pact - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14890085
noir wrote:The German elites are expert in conflicting one against the other? They were greatly responsible for inciting America against USSR

During the Cold War

Like the USA had to be incited against the USSR so much, I'm sure the Germans were whispering the Truman Doctrine in their ears as well! :lol:

Heisenberg wrote:I'm fine with the European Union developing its own military capabilities - maybe that means they can start sending Germans and Frenchmen to do their dirty work next time they want a proxy war with Russia, rather than relying on the SAS.

What makes you think it's the Germans and the French that want this war? Do you believe post-Yanukovych Ukraine is their project? :?:

Anyway, Europe is not the USA's Melania and she's not supposed to be a pornstarlet either. However, she could piss on them if they asked, but they rather prefer the Russians doing that it seems.
#14890086
Beren wrote:What makes you think it's the Germans and the French that want this war? Do you believe post-Yanukovych Ukraine is their project? :?:


It is their project when they remain NATO members and support the American line on Ukraine.

I find this sanctimonious European liberalism very annoying. The French and German elites are just as guilty as any other.

The EU imposed sanctions against Russia and you are suggesting that Ukraine is not their project?
#14890087
Given that the EU's foreign minister appeared in Kiev encouraging the protests against Yanukovych in 2014, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the EU was keen on prising Ukraine away from Russia.

You guys don't get to feign ignorance just because it has (predictably) turned into a complete mess. :lol:

But like I said - next time, with your continent-spanning super army, you can do it yourselves, without getting us to do it for you and then pretending we're acting unilaterally as imperialist aggressors. :)
#14890091
Political Interest wrote:
It is their project when they remain NATO members and support the American line on Ukraine.

I find this sanctimonious European liberalism very annoying. The French and German elites are just as guilty as any other.

The EU imposed sanctions against Russia and you are suggesting that Ukraine is not their project?

You're right, we're NATO members and part of Pax Americana. So we owe some loyalty, which costs us a lot.

Heisenberg wrote:But like I said - next time, with your continent-spanning super army, you can do it yourselves, without getting us to do it for you and then pretending we're acting unilaterally as imperialist aggressors. :)

So you seriously believe you do it for us? :eh:

Why? Because you love us so much? :lol:

I leave the rest to @Atlantis. ;)
#14890122
95% of my posts in these threads are aimed at Atlantis. It's not as fun when you respond instead. :excited:

But, suffice it to say that Britain has no natural interests in Ukraine or Eastern Europe, while Germany, the EU and the neoconservative US establishment do. So to some extent, we do "do it for you" - although our establishment still thinks we are still a major world power, so they don't see it that way.
#14890125
Heisenberg wrote:95% of my posts in these threads are aimed at Atlantis. It's not as fun when you respond instead. :excited:

But, suffice it to say that Britain has no natural interests in Ukraine or Eastern Europe, while Germany, the EU and the neoconservative US establishment do. So to some extent, we do "do it for you" - although our establishment still thinks we are still a major world power, so they don't see it that way.

Germany and and the EU are most naturally interested in Russia, not Ukraine, they wouldn't give a shit about Ukraine if it hurts their relations with Russia.

You're there for the same reason as the EU imposed sanctions on Russia: That's what vassals do.
#14890205
Heisenberg wrote:Given that the EU's foreign minister appeared in Kiev encouraging the protests against Yanukovych in 2014, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the EU was keen on prising Ukraine away from Russia.


I have a general policy of not feeding the trolls, but just for the record:

Washington/Warsaw/UK have tried to pull Ukraine into Nato and the EU since 2008:

Bush Pressing NATO to Set Membership Path for Ukraine, Georgia

Confidential cables from the US embassy in Warsaw revealed that the US had been using Warsaw to influence EU policy in its attempts to pull Ukraine away from Russia. Said cables also reveal that the US knew perfectly well that the Russians would have to respond by military measures. The Anglo imperialists deliberately triggered the Ukraine crisis.

Both Germany and France have followed a policy of vetoing Ukraine EU and Nato membership since 2008 because they know that it would lead to a major confrontation with Russia.

NATO Allies Oppose Bush on Georgia and Ukraine

That hasn't stopped the US from spending 5 billion USD to overthrow Yanukovych. Three European foreign ministers and Putin's envoy were in Kiev to broker a deal between Yanukovych and the protesters. After the foreign ministers left, the deal was violated by the protesters instigated by a small and violent group of fascists funded by the US.

When the EU tried to broker a deal in Ukraine, the US Assistent Secretary of State Victoria Nuland said "fuck the EU" and went ahead with toppling the Kiev government and naming a new PM before Yanukovych had even fled the country.

Following the rapprochement between Russia and the EU in the wake of the Iraq war, the US decided to start another war in Europe.

Following the infamous role Warsaw has played in Kiev, Poland has been excluded from the Minsk peace talks, which doesn't really matter now the PiSsers have gone all retard and even picked a fight with Ukraine.

Closet imperialists like Heisenberg will rewrite history to suit the empire. You are not satisfied with spreading death and terror until you are wading ankle-deep in blood, you also have to blame the victims for your crimes.

You have no shame and your imperial narrative is getting so thin that you have to invent the most desperate of lies. History won't take a kind view of the perfidious Albion.

Beren wrote:Germany and and the EU are most naturally interested in Russia, not Ukraine, they wouldn't give a shit about Ukraine if it hurts their relations with Russia.

At the Munich security conference, the German foreign minister said yesterday that a gradual lifting of the sanctions is possible if we see some progress in the Minsk 2 peace process. The ball is in Putin's court.

You're there for the same reason as the EU imposed sanctions on Russia: That's what vassals do.

The Brits believe they are the favorite lap dogs of the Yankees. What they don't know is that the orange ape thinks that dogs are just dogs - something to kick out off the way.
#14890220
I always find it amusing to be accused of being a "closet imperialist" when I have repeatedly said I want NATO disbanded and for Britain to stop fighting neocon wars, but maybe Atlantis is just projecting. I can't see much other use for a continental European army, than eastward expansion - which has after all been a German foreign policy goal since its founding.

But like I said - good for you guys! Next time America wants to stir things up with Russia, you can fight yourselves and not drag us in as your useful idiots before spitting back that we started it, as you are (predictably) doing now.

I don't hold out much hope though. Like America, Britain's politicians tend to see posing with military hardware as a kind of patriotic duty, and ordering drone strikes from thousands of miles away as the pinnacle of brave statesmanship. So you'll unfortunately have a reliable partner in the UK for your next adventure in an eastern graveyard.
#14890427
noir wrote:France tries to save itself but it's too late




I don’t think it is too late for France. In fact they have a plan B in case the EU doesn’t work out.

France still retains extensive colonial possessions in the Indian and Pacific ocean regions. They also have considerable influence in Africa. And France has been cultivating regional allies such as Australia. Also India, with naval exercises in the Indian Ocean.

Most people forget that Australia and France share common boarders. Also French and Australian defence industries are intertwined. Thales, forexample, owns the factory that produces the Bushmaster PMV. Australian and France are cooperating on the submarine replacement project, etc. Finally, France, Australia, New Zealand and Norway are all bound by a shared Antartic sovereignty treaty. Actually, for Australia, France is plan B in case the USA suffers a Soviet style meltdown (which explains why we tend to take a supportive position when it comes to France).

So if the EU project falls apart, France can fall back on these alternative arrangements. They control large, resource rich regions and have been building the alliances required to hold those regions.



The UK, on the other hand, let their global influence decline. Now they are leaving the EU they are having to scramble to make alternative arrangements. They didn’t have a plan B. Australia’s foriegn minister is currently in the UK and has throw the UK a life line by offering the UK place in the TPP. British still has a tiny bit of territory in the Pacific so technically it is justified, right ;) Though the other 10 partners need to agree, I think most will go with the idea since most members have close relations with Britain anyway.



As to Germany, I’ve been trying to understand exactly what their major malfunction is. Most assume it is their arrogance and pride. But how is that different from any other European nation? I think the problem with the Germans is that, when it comes to power they behave like gamblers. They take excessive risks without an exit strategy. WWI and WWII are good examples of how their risk taking gets them into trouble. The refugee crisis is a recent example of their risk taking attitude. The German problem is that they approach power like a gambler approaches a Casino. Until they learn some common sense, the other Europeans shouldn’t let them have too much power.
#14890434
noir wrote:It's too late. The open borders (dictated be EU directives) brought irreversible demographic changes. Next years we will witness steady a low-intensity civil war.



This is certainly a problem. At least France is acknowledging that now. Germany hasn’t got that far. The Algerian migrants for the most part are not interested in French traditions of liberty and French views on religion. I can’t see how it can work out. I expect many Algerians will have to return to Algeria.
#14890508
It is most likely that a European military will still be Atlanticist. The European elites will not suddenly abandon their Western orientation. It's just a more masculine Europe, but one that remains thoroughly pro-American in orientation.

And Washington is not just going to let Europe go its own way. NATO will continue, it's just it's European partner will be more militarised than before.
#14890903
Beren wrote:Germany and and the EU are most naturally interested in Russia, not Ukraine, they wouldn't give a shit about Ukraine if it hurts their relations with Russia.

You're there for the same reason as the EU imposed sanctions on Russia: That's what vassals do.


The ignorance of EU-fanboys if truly baffling. It was the EU with its push for an association agreement respectively the Russian response that triggered the crisis. But of course EU bureaucrats would never want that, and Euromaidan totally didn't give them multiple orgasms, they were forced to do so by evil America.

Atlantis wrote:That hasn't stopped the US from spending 5 billion USD to overthrow Yanukovych.


The US invested $5bn over the course of 25 years to "promote democracy" in Ukraine. Peanuts compared to what the EU spends on fostering "democracy and the rule of law" in Eastern Europe.
#14891694
I was shocked by this article. I highlighted the paragraph describing the level of readiness ( or rather, lack there off) of the German military. If the Russians overcame Polish and American resistance, they would be able to roll right through to the Rhine.

Oh, and then there is the vegetarian comment. Haha! :lol:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/kaffeeklatsch/2018/02/happily-vegetarian

Happily vegetarian
Germany remains reluctant to pull its weight in the world

The host nation of the Munich Security Conference offers much rhetoric and little action


Kaffeeklatsch
Feb 19th 2018by J.C. | MUNICH

THIS year’s Munich Security Conference (MSC) began gloomy—under the slogan ‘To the brink—and back?’—and got gloomier. As the annual gathering of international leaders, politicians and defence experts drew to a close yesterday its chairman, Wolfgang Ischinger, confessed: “When I opened the conference on Friday, I hoped we could delete the question mark from the motto, but now I am not fully sure we can do that.” Participants had identified “what the new challenges are”, he explained, but not “concrete steps” towards confronting them. Others were left similarly downbeat. The West is “looking pretty wan and exhausted”, tweeted Constanze Stelzenmüller of the Brookings Institution, while Tobias Bunde, the MSC’s head of policy, observed: “To many in Munich, the US increasingly looks like a rudderless ship, and the Europeans mostly offer analyses rather than strategies.”

Nothing illustrates that gap between rhetoric and action as well as Germany itself. The representatives of Europe’s largest economy made all the right noises in Munich. In a grand speech roaming from America and Ukraine to Syria and North Korea, Sigmar Gabriel, the foreign minister, warned that Europe needed to do more for its own security: “it’s going to be damned hard for us as the only vegetarians in a world of carnivores”. Ursula von der Leyen, the German defence minister tipped to be the next head of NATO, issued a similar overture: “Europe must now begin to finally build up momentum… We will increase the Bundeswehr’s personnel strength. We will continue to invest and modernise.”


But what of Mr Ischinger’s wished-for “concrete steps”? Mr Gabriel—concretely—skipped a meeting of the so-called Normandy group on Ukraine (France, Germany, Ukraine, Russia) so he could return to Berlin and share the credit for the release in Turkey of the imprisoned German-Turkish journalist Deniz Yücel. To be sure, this was a happy moment, but one requiring his presence decidedly less than the rare chance to address the ongoing bloodshed in eastern Ukraine that he canned to be there. The foreign minister’s rhetoric at the MSC also contrasted starkly with his proudly “vegetarian” message to German voters during the election campaign last year, when he toured the country portraying Angela Merkel as a poodle of Donald Trump for backing NATO’s target for defence spending of 2% of GDP, which he declared tantamount to an “arms race”.


Not that Germany is in much danger of hitting the target. Under the freshly negotiated coalition deal between Mrs Merkel’s Christian Democrats and Mr Gabriel’s Social Democrats (SPD) the percentage will not exceed 1.5%. The document’s language on defence is intensely vague. And four years into Mrs von der Leyen’s modernisation programme, Germany’s armed forces remain in a pitiful state, depleted after decades of post-Cold War neglect. The country is struggling to marshal enough working Leopard tanks (pictured above) for its modest—albeit welcome and historically unprecedented—NATO deployment in Lithuania. Its entire submarine fleet is out of service. The Luftwaffe’s planes and helicopters are available, on average, for around four months of the year. Earlier last week André Wüstner, the chairman of the German Bundeswehr Association, said the country might as well dissolve its armed forces if it was not prepared to make them deployable.

So Mrs von der Leyen also talked about aid spending, where Germans are more comfortable. She asked: what is the point of liberating a citizen of Mosel only for them to die of starvation later? A reasonable point, but one which came across as special pleading for Germany’s distaste for hard military intervention, particularly when contrasted with speeches by France’s prime minister and defence minister. The former diplomatically declined to comment on Germany’s coalition deal, but both pointed to significant increases in the French defence budget and, as Judy Dempsey of Carnegie Europe notes, emphasised action where Germany’s defence minister preferred to talk about institutions. Given such differences in philosophy, she advises those waiting for a more strategic Europe: “don’t hold your breath”.

The potential costs of the gulf between a foot-dragging Germany and a pro-active but lonely France became clear in other speeches, reminders of the carnivorous world beyond the comfortable EU. Petro Poroshenko, Ukraine’s president, said Moscow is waging a “world hybrid war”; Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, accused Kiev of “openly sabotaging” the peace process; Benjamin Netanyahu brandished a chunk of metal from an Iranian drone shot down over Israel. It says something about the tone of exchanges that the latter two men both referred to Chamberlain’s 1938 deal with Hitler in Munich in their speeches. Yet as others used and abused Germany's history at the podium, the country's representatives offered merely learned observations, not hard proposals. When Mateusz Morawiecki, Poland’s right-populist prime minister, said Europe needed more “steel tanks” rather than just “think tanks”, it actually seemed a fair dig at his country’s western neighbour.

It does not help that there is no new government in Berlin. Almost five months of post-election coalition wrangling have turned the attentions of Germany’s political class inwards. Mr Gabriel’s wayward foreign policies, for example, are substantially explained by power struggles in the SPD. But the introversion hardly began on September 24th—in the German election campaign, for example, neither the state of the Bundeswehr nor the growing defence demands on Berlin were significant issues, the SPD’s disingenuous peacenikkery and occasional references to “uncertain times” from Mrs Merkel aside. As far as the harsh realities of those “uncertain times” go, Germany is a country anaesthetised. Until its leaders start to confront their voters with some of the well-judged words they brought to Munich last week, those words will remain empty.
#14891698
More reason for Germany to pool its resources with everyone else to create an army that could withstand a Russian ground offensive then @foxdemon. Any nation that relies on a foriegn nation for their security needs has to side on their foriegn policies regardless on the absurbness of them. And when those foreign policies have flooded you continent with refugees, it's time to move on.

Also, why spent much wealth on defence when you are a small country like the UK? True power is created by population and land mass in terms of sercurity prevention. The UK is militarily nothing without being part of the EU to back it up. It is a small Island with a big ego. Perhaps Germany are wise to the dangers, the costs and the outcomes. The UK are just wise to the dangers.
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