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By Beren
#14890246
Seeker8 wrote:So that mean's the UK will go to WTO rules. I just find it hard to believe we can do something so stupid.

The Brits voted to leave and the Yanks elected Trump, so what could be hard to believe after that? Stupidity is like an avalanche, it only needs the initial momentum to start and keep growing until the plunge stops.
User avatar
By Heisenberg
#14890255
JohnRawls wrote:It is hard to blame Cameron for Brexit.

What? :lol:

Cameron was a vapid chancer who gambled one too many times. You'd have thought he'd learn from the Scottish referendum, which very nearly went horribly wrong, but instead it emboldened him.

Hilariously, Theresa May saw him bungle the EU referendum and thought "What a great idea! Let's do that again!", and the 2017 election was born.

God, the Tories are idiots. And yet people still think they are the "responsible" ones! :lol:
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14890265
Heisenberg wrote:What? :lol:

Cameron was a vapid chancer who gambled one too many times. You'd have thought he'd learn from the Scottish referendum, which very nearly went horribly wrong, but instead it emboldened him.

Hilariously, Theresa May saw him bungle the EU referendum and thought "What a great idea! Let's do that again!", and the 2017 election was born.

God, the Tories are idiots. And yet people still think they are the "responsible" ones! :lol:


Perhaps. His action were idealistic and could have improved the situation for a decade if he succeeded. So i can see why he would make such a choice. He just lost.
User avatar
By Beren
#14890270
Whereas Blair had to go to a bullshit war alongside neocon criminals and get accused of crimes against humanity to get devastated after a decade-long premiership, Cameron just called a totally unnecessary bullshit referendum to achieve the same after six years in power. He was moronic rather than idealistic.
By B0ycey
#14890271
Seeker8 wrote:So that mean's the UK will go to WTO rules. I just find it hard to believe we can do something so stupid.


I suspect the commons are going to reject this deal whatever is negotiated because there are no obvious solutions to the major sticking points. Then May will be forced to retreat from article 50. Common sense would suggest that May should try and negotiate with the EU to change EU labour laws so to remain in the EU. This would both save face and please Brexiteers if she could reach a deal on this. But she insists on sailing SS Brextanic into the iceberg. History will repeat itself and she will be "Thatcher Mark 2". Hated by the poor and loved by the wealthy.

Perhaps a recession is needed to bring the UK into reality for its dependence of trade.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14890424
B0ycey wrote:I suspect the commons are going to reject this deal whatever is negotiated because there are no obvious solutions to the major sticking points. Then May will be forced to retreat from article 50. Common sense would suggest that May should try and negotiate with the EU to change EU labour laws so to remain in the EU. This would both save face and please Brexiteers if she could reach a deal on this. But she insists on sailing SS Brextanic into the iceberg. History will repeat itself and she will be "Thatcher Mark 2". Hated by the poor and loved by the wealthy.

Perhaps a recession is needed to bring the UK into reality for its dependence of trade.


Right. We are not going to give you any more special treatments like we gave to you before Brexit. You can forget about it. Treating UK in a special way and giving you exception after exception after exception does not work. We gave you cake but instead you have bitten our hand off also. We have learned our lesson. Uk is not special and should not be treated better than Germany or France. So please leave if you don't like it.
By foxdemon
#14890636
So, the Trans Pacific Partnership....

Australia has said it would be great if the UK joined. Now Japan has said they are A’OK with the idea. I expect SG and NZ will agree so fast that there will be a sonic boom. Can’t imagine why the Canadians would see a problem with the idea. That just leaves Mexico, Chile, Peru, Malaysia, Vietnam and Brunei to give the nod.

And now the Americans are having regrets that they aren’t in.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-reverse-tpp-trade-decision-senators-say-2018-2?r=US&IR=T

This TPP business is getting strange. If the UK and the USA both join, that will be all 5 Anglo powers. Plus the Japanese and Singaporeans. @Atlantis will have a fit :p
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14890637
foxdemon wrote:So, the Trans Pacific Partnership....

Australia has said it would be great if the UK joined. Now Japan has said they are A’OK with the idea. I expect SG and NZ will agree so fast that there will be a sonic boom. Can’t imagine why the Canadians would see a problem with the idea. That just leaves Mexico, Chile, Peru, Malaysia, Vietnam and Brunei to give the nod.

And now the Americans are having regrets that they aren’t in.

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/trump-reverse-tpp-trade-decision-senators-say-2018-2?r=US&IR=T

This TPP business is getting strange. If the UK and the USA both join, that will be all 5 Anglo powers. Plus the Japanese and Singaporeans. @Atlantis will have a fit :p


Cool and all but what does it actually do for you and your standards of living that you didn't have before? You are used as a staging platform to sell stuff to Europe by a lot of companies (In the before mentioned countries). It is obviously a plus after you loose access to European Unions trade deals but what about the rest of the world?
By foxdemon
#14890644
JohnRawls wrote:Cool and all but what does it actually do for you and your standards of living that you didn't have before? You are used as a staging platform to sell stuff to Europe by a lot of companies (In the before mentioned countries). It is obviously a plus after you loose access to European Unions trade deals but what about the rest of the world?



In terms of standards of living, for members like Australia and Japan, there is likely to be little change despite the rosy picture politicians present. For Vietnam and Malaysia, it is likely to be all their Christmass come at once as they will benefit from Japanese direct investment and a nice market to sell into.

But the TPP (or Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere, haha) is not the same animal as the EU. It is really about geopolitics through an economic lens. The impetus to create it is to build an ecomonic alternative to China. The later uses economic means to achieve geopolitical ends and will dominate the Asia Pacific economically and politically if nothing is done.

Consider the circumstances of the formation of the EU and the TPP. The EEC was developed from the countries in the Marshal plan and grew into the EU over time. All under the protection of America when the USA was at the height of it’s power. The EU has benefited from a lengthy and safe gestation. TPP, on the other hand, has been thrown together in haste in response to growing Chinese power when American power is in decline. Indeed it is a response to both. As a result the TPP is unlikely to ever be as refined as the EU.

So the real benefits is the degrees of freedom from Beijing policy that it gives the governments involved. By having a shared forum to develop responses to that policy, dangle a juicy market in front of Chinese business and provide alternative sources of financing from Beijing, the hope is that China will have to sit down at the table and negotiate from a weaker position.

The American view is somewhat different, as they would have been the dominate nation had they joined at the outset. The original rules were very much in their favour and would have given them a lot of control and real influence in the broader Asian economy. As it is, without America, the member nations are free to redefine the TPP in more favourable terms for themselves. Canada, forexample, does better without the US being involved. The Americans will likely join, possibly after Trump, but the longer they are out, the more time the founding members have to shape the TPP in their own favour. So it won’t be quite the platform for American hegemony that it could have been. Trump made a bad call for America.

For the UK, it gives the City access to some high growth economies in Asia and consequently a strong foothold for further involvement in the broader Asian economy. This is a market the City very much wants to get into. For the rest of Britain, it will likely only prevent a decline in their standard of living that they would suffer on leaving the EU as it will bring more income back into the UK.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14890651
foxdemon wrote:In terms of standards of living, for members like Australia and Japan, there is likely to be little change despite the rosy picture politicians present. For Vietnam and Malaysia, it is likely to be all their Christmass come at once as they will benefit from Japanese direct investment and a nice market to sell into.

But the TPP (or Greater Co-Prosperity Sphere, haha) is not the same animal as the EU. It is really about geopolitics through an economic lens. The impetus to create it is to build an ecomonic alternative to China. The later uses economic means to achieve geopolitical ends and will dominate the Asia Pacific economically and politically if nothing is done.

Consider the circumstances of the formation of the EU and the TPP. The EEC was developed from the countries in the Marshal plan and grew into the EU over time. All under the protection of America when the USA was at the height of it’s power. The EU has benefited from a lengthy and safe gestation. TPP, on the other hand, has been thrown together in haste in response to growing Chinese power when American power is in decline. Indeed it is a response to both. As a result the TPP is unlikely to ever be as refined as the EU.

So the real benefits is the degrees of freedom from Beijing policy that it gives the governments involved. By having a shared forum to develop responses to that policy, dangle a juicy market in front of Chinese business and provide alternative sources of financing from Beijing, the hope is that China will have to sit down at the table and negotiate from a weaker position.

The American view is somewhat different, as they would have been the dominate nation had they joined at the outset. The original rules were very much in their favour and would have given them a lot of control and real influence in the broader Asian economy. As it is, without America, the member nations are free to redefine the TPP in more favourable terms for themselves. Canada, forexample, does better without the US being involved. The Americans will likely join, possibly after Trump, but the longer they are out, the more time the founding members have to shape the TPP in their own favour. So it won’t be quite the platform for American hegemony that it could have been. Trump made a bad call for America.

For the UK, it gives the City access to some high growth economies in Asia and consequently a strong foothold for further involvement in the broader Asian economy. This is a market the City very much wants to get into. For the rest of Britain, it will likely only prevent a decline in their standard of living that they would suffer on leaving the EU as it will bring more income back into the UK.


So basically nothing new that Europe already provided in larger numbers though :|

Also you are leaving the EU to join a very light version of the EU :|
By foxdemon
#14890652
JohnRawls wrote:So basically nothing new that Europe already provided in larger numbers though :|

Also you are leaving the EU to join a very light version of the EU :|


Me? I’m not British. You should address your concerns to British members.

But basically I agree with what your saying. The EU is more structured and had a nice collective bargaining aspect which is of great benefit for smaller countries. The TTP, or CPTPP ad itbis now called, isn’t going to provide as much security or support as does the EU. For countries in East Asia it is better than nothing.

For the UK, well I am sure the City will find plenty of opportunities. The British elites will take to it like a fish to water. Not sure how it will help poorer Britons apart from ensuring the government gets enough tax income to keep funding some sort of welfare.
By Atlantis
#14890723
foxdemon wrote:The EEC was developed from the countries in the Marshal plan and grew into the EU over time.


It's amazing to see the kind of history you people fabricate in your head. Is that the gospel delivered free home via Vox? Hallelujah! Please don't forget that you live in your Anglophone bubble in total ignorance of the world, while you are completely transparent to the rest of us. Witnessing your follies is like watching some dystopian Hollywood movie with a lot of shooting and violence of creatures that are hellbent on killing each other.

The Marshal plan was a US export promotion scheme with the aim of fucking the socialist camp. It had absolutely nothing to do with the EU. In fact, the countries receiving most per capita under the Marshall plan weren't even among the EEC founding members: UK, Greece.

The EEC grew out of Franco-German reconciliation and the Coal and Steel union, which was to prevent a renewed arms race, which, in the past had always started with national competition in the coal and steel industries. Following the Suez crisis, Adenauer was able to convince De Gaul to get the EEC started because de Gaul realized that the colonies would be lost. Today we know that de Gaul was right in his resolve to keep the Brits out.

There are more than a dozen regional organizations, such as Mercosur, the Andean League, the Arab League, the African League, Asean, etc., which were inspired by the EU; however, not one of them has been as successful as the EU. In fact, most of them are totally dysfunctional. The EU has been the greatest achievement in human history, which was achieved despite, not because, of Anglo imperialism.

I very much encourage you to form a white Anglosphere union with the orange ape. It will be based on protectionism and identity politics. It's easier for the rest of us to find common ground if we have a common enemy. The EU has unparalleled skills and experience in consensus building in a multi-ethnic framework. And before you can teach the Donald not to trip over his own feet, we'll have the rest of the world tied up in a network of trade and cooperation. They won't even need TPP.
By foxdemon
#14890890
There are more than a dozen regional organizations, such as Mercosur, the Andean League, the Arab League, the African League, Asean, etc., which were inspired by the EU; however, not one of them has been as successful as the EU. In fact, most of them are totally dysfunctional. The EU has been the greatest achievement in human history, which was achieved despite, not because, of Anglo imperialism.


What makes you think the EU inspired those groups? ASEAN has been very successfully until recent Chinese moves to subvert it. Much like Chinese moves underway to subvert EU unity. But it is those Anglos who have sheltered you from communism and subsidized your economy while the EU formed that you need to worry about, right? :knife:

As to the greatness of the EU, when was the last time a European astronaut walked on the moon?
By foxdemon
#14890895
This article is a bit old but it gives something of an overview of Asian trade block dynamics. This might be of interest to @JohnRawls

https://gbtimes.com/asias-rival-trade-deals-explained-tpp-rcep-ftaap


We can see Japan, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore at the hub of all three major treaties. There’s countries are reliable friends for Britain. The CPTPP would give Britain an entry into this grand game.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14890901
foxdemon wrote:What makes you think the EU inspired those groups? ASEAN has been very successfully until recent Chinese moves to subvert it. Much like Chinese moves underway to subvert EU unity. But it is those Anglos who have sheltered you from communism and subsidized your economy while the EU formed that you need to worry about, right? :knife:

As to the greatness of the EU, when was the last time a European astronaut walked on the moon?



In all honesty this statement makes no sense. The Russians are also like "We be first in space!", "We built sputnik!", "We have nukes" etc etc

Greatness is not measured by walking on the Moon, having tons of rockets and nukes or the strongest military. Those are all tools to achieve it.

On top of that, greatness itself can mean many things. Is having free healthcare greatness? Is having the most efficient healthcare greatness? Free education? Bests standards of living? Everyone has his own meaning for that word.
By foxdemon
#14890902
JohnRawls wrote:In all honesty this statement makes no sense. The Russians are also like "We be first in space!", "We built sputnik!", "We have nukes" etc etc

Greatness is not measured by walking on the Moon, having tons of rockets and nukes or the strongest military. Those are all tools to achieve it.

On top of that, greatness itself can mean many things. Is having free healthcare greatness? Is having the most efficient healthcare greatness? Free education? Bests standards of living? Everyone has his own meaning for that word.



When all is said and done, historians get the final judgement about greatness. Typically it is about achievement. Sending people to the moon is a good example.

But we are going off topic.

It seems the Chinese are sceptical of UK participation in the CPTPP greater co-prosperity sphere. Are they worried their quarry will escape?

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1087557.shtml

UK may just want to use CPTPP as a bargaining chip
By Zhang Jingwei Source:Global Times Published: 2018/1/31 22:03:40


As it struggles to prepare for Brexit, the UK is reportedly angling to join the smaller version of the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement (TPP), the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).

According to the Financial Times, Britain has conducted informal talks on joining the trade pact. However, its membership will inevitably have to wait until after the TPP has completed its agreed revision and until the relationship between the UK and the EU is settled after Brexit. The UK is still a member of the EU, so it can't make any trade decisions that violate the "sovereignty" of the entire EU community.

This does not prevent the UK from negotiating with the relevant countries in the CPTPP in advance. Liam Fox, the UK trade minister, has apparently held informal talks with CPTPP member countries such as Australia and New Zealand. As Commonwealth countries, Australia and New Zealand can help the UK to understand the procedure to enter the CPTPP.

However, there are other obstacles for Britain in joining the CPTPP. First, as the UK is not located in the Asia-Pacific region, will the CPTPP have to change its name again? And this time, what will the "comprehensive and progressive" TPP change into?

Second, the 11 member states of the CPTPP actually yearn for the US to come back to the fold so that the pact can really be "comprehensive and progressive." Because of the departure of the US, the weighting of the TPP has shrunk dramatically, dropping from 40 percent of the global economy to 15 percent. The addition of the UK would improve its strength, but by nowhere near the same amount as the US.

Third, the CPTPP, which is dominated and mainly organized by Japan, reached a framework agreement in November. But each member country still needs the approval of its own legislative body, and considering the initial reluctance of Canada, its final participation is also uncertain.

Moreover, if Britain joins, there will be four major trading nations with British cultural traditions - the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand - which will be a challenge to Japan's dominance. Therefore, the UK may not necessarily be welcomed by Japan.

As part of its membership of the TPP, the US had to make some major concessions, and this is why President Donald Trump quit the pact, as he thought it wasn't a good deal for the US. Japan also had to make concessions in areas such as agriculture and automobiles, so that other member states would join the pact.

Although the UK is less aggressive than it used to be, its economic strength would be second only to that of Japan in the CPTPP. If the UK were to join, it would also have to make trade concessions and that does not appear likely at the moment.

The political situation in the UK has become uncertain because of Brexit. All parties are claiming to represent British interests and denouncing their political opponents. The UK's participation in the CPTPP does not seem to be about creating a broader trade circle - it seems to be a way of dealing with anxiety about Brexit. Due to its separation from the EU, Britain hopes to make up for the sense of isolation by creating a new trade circle.

In addition, Britain wants to boost bilateral and multilateral trade with other major economies, and it is ready to establish closer trade ties with countries such as China, the US and India.

It is understandable that as it prepares to leave the EU, Britain is eager to find a new open trade window in the global market. But the Brexit negotiations must come first, and settling the future trade relationship with the EU is the top priority for the UK at the moment.

Instead of accepting an arrangement similar to that between Canada and the EU - the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) framework, which was finalized by Canada and the EU last year - the government of Prime Minister Theresa May will aim to protect Britain's status as the leading financial center in Europe.

However, the negotiations between Britain and the EU are not symmetrical. For instance, in December 2017, Japan and the EU reached an agreement in their economic partnership agreement (EPA) negotiations. Even if Britain joins the CPTPP, it can not contend with the free trade mechanism between the EU and Japan.

From this perspective, joining the CPTPP appears to reflect the anxiety of the UK as it leaves the EU, and it may use it as a bargaining chip with the EU to gain more trade benefits from the Brexit negotiations.

The author is a research fellow with the Charhar Institute, a non-governmental think tank. bizopinion@globaltimes.com.cn
By Atlantis
#14890913
foxdemon wrote:What makes you think the EU inspired those groups? ASEAN has been very successfully until recent Chinese moves to subvert it. Much like Chinese moves underway to subvert EU unity.


The Treaty of Rome predates Asean by 10 years and the Steel and Coal Union predates Asean by 20 years. Even without the Internet, communication between Europe and Asia didn't take 10 years in those days.

"Asean has been very successful" in what?

- Has Asean Freedom of Movement?
- Can every individual from Asean settle and work in any Asean country?
- Has Asean a common currency?
- Has Asean open borders like in Schengen?
- Is there a common Asean law and a common legal jurisdiction?
- Does Asean have a parliament elected democratically in fair and free elections by all Asean citizens?
- Are all Asean members even full democracies?
- Does Asean promote democracy in Asia?
- Does Asean have a charter and court for human rights defending the rights of individuals and minorities? If so, how can genocide of the Rohingya happen as we are speaking?
- Are there a dozen Asian countries in line to join Asean?
- Does Asean have a common agricultural policy?
- Does Asean have a student program like Erasmus?
- Does Asean have research programs like Horizon?
- Does Asean promote disadvantaged regions with subsidies and fiscal transfers?
- Does Asean even have a single market?
- Does Asean have a common patent system?
- Does Asean have free roaming?
- Does Asean have of free cross-border banking services?
- Does Asean have "passports" for banking services?

I'll stop before I hit the character limit for posts. To claim that the commies prevented all that goes to show that you are as ignorant about Asia as you are ignorant about Europe.

But it is those Anglos who have sheltered you from communism and subsidized your economy while the EU formed that you need to worry about, right? :knife:

You mean we ought to be grateful to the imperialists for dividing the continent and for forcing hundreds of millions to live behind the iron curtain for decades? Do we also have to be grateful for the empire robbing us blind and destabilizing the whole region? Do we owe you thanks for promoting terror and for flooding us with war refugees?

JohnRawls wrote:In all honesty this statement makes no sense. The Russians are also like "We be first in space!", "We built sputnik!", "We have nukes" etc etc

He means they have the greatest guns and can fuck with us any way they like. And they are obviously hellbent on keeping it that way since they want us to spend even more money on their arms and prevent us from European military cooperation so they can continue their protection racket.

They are too thick to understand that a protection racket is supposed to protect and create security. If it the source for insecurity and terror, it has outlived its usefulness.

foxdemon wrote:It seems the Chinese are sceptical of UK participation in the CPTPP greater co-prosperity sphere. Are they worried their quarry will escape?

Outside the EU, the UK is of no use to the Chinese who have used Westminster to undermine the EU. The EU already finalized advanced trade agreements with a number of potential CPTPP members and is in the process of negotiating others. Nobody is going to do a deal with the UK until they know what the agreement with the EU will be.

UK may just want to use CPTPP as a bargaining chip

Yeah, like the tail wagging the dog. :lol:
By foxdemon
#14891199
Atlantis wrote:The Treaty of Rome predates Asean by 10 years and the Steel and Coal Union predates Asean by 20 years. Even without the Internet, communication between Europe and Asia didn't take 10 years in those days.

"Asean has been very successful" in what?

- Has Asean Freedom of Movement?
- Can every individual from Asean settle and work in any Asean country?
- Has Asean a common currency?
- Has Asean open borders like in Schengen?
- Is there a common Asean law and a common legal jurisdiction?
- Does Asean have a parliament elected democratically in fair and free elections by all Asean citizens?
- Are all Asean members even full democracies?
- Does Asean promote democracy in Asia?
- Does Asean have a charter and court for human rights defending the rights of individuals and minorities? If so, how can genocide of the Rohingya happen as we are speaking?
- Are there a dozen Asian countries in line to join Asean?
- Does Asean have a common agricultural policy?
- Does Asean have a student program like Erasmus?
- Does Asean have research programs like Horizon?
- Does Asean promote disadvantaged regions with subsidies and fiscal transfers?
- Does Asean even have a single market?
- Does Asean have a common patent system?
- Does Asean have free roaming?
- Does Asean have of free cross-border banking services?
- Does Asean have "passports" for banking services?

I'll stop before I hit the character limit for posts. To claim that the commies prevented all that goes to show that you are as ignorant about Asia as you are ignorant about Europe.



The nations of ASEAN started from a much more undeveloped state, having freed themselves from centuries of European Imperialism. Compared to Europe, their were starting from scratch, apart from the ex Anglo colonies, which were better developed and had many more educated people.

What ASEAN has achieved is going from the same position as Africa to reasonably developed societies with nearly all people educated. So given their starting position, a reasonable minded person would say they have accomplished a great deal in the last 70 years.

Furthermore, it is false to judge others by your own standards. Their values aren’t the same as yours. You need to acknowledge that your values aren’t universal and aren’t eternal. ASEAN has other virtues, like not invading countries or interfering in their internal affairs. Unlike Europe who trashed Libya not so long ago.




You mean we ought to be grateful to the imperialists for dividing the continent and for forcing hundreds of millions to live behind the iron curtain for decades? Do we also have to be grateful for the empire robbing us blind and destabilizing the whole region? Do we owe you thanks for promoting terror and for flooding us with war refugees?


Well, dividing the continent is German’s fault. The Americans were fair minded in rebuilding post war Europe and fostering a prosperous and liberal order. Should you be grateful? I think you should be honest and admit Germany would be too mean to behave in such a manner. Just look at how the Greeks have been treated. As to refugees, wasn’t it the EU who destroyed Libya and thus removed any control over illegal immigration from Africa?

Actually, it isn’t the Anglos who are a threat to Europe. Germany is far and away the biggest threat. They haven’t learnt anything from they blunders in the 20th century and will continue to create resentment in modern Europe due to their over inflated sense of entitlement and desire for dominance. Hopeful the other nations of Europe will back the French and keep the Germans in their place.

But I can appreciate why Germans might feel motivated to paint Anglos as evil and threatening. It is an attempt to deflect attention from German ambitions.


He means they have the greatest guns and can fuck with us any way they like. And they are obviously hellbent on keeping it that way since they want us to spend even more money on their arms and prevent us from European military cooperation so they can continue their protection racket.


You should give up on projecting your own attitudes on others. Not everyone in the world thinks like a Prussian.


They are too thick to understand that a protection racket is supposed to protect and create security. If it the source for insecurity and terror, it has outlived its usefulness.


The US post war liberal order was a vast improvement over the preceeding European Imperial order. Your just cut because you aren’t allowed to set up Empires and exploit whoever you like under Pax Americana.


Outside the EU, the UK is of no use to the Chinese who have used Westminster to undermine the EU. The EU already finalized advanced trade agreements with a number of potential CPTPP members and is in the process of negotiating others. Nobody is going to do a deal with the UK until they know what the agreement with the EU will be.


Yeah, like the tail wagging the dog. :lol:


The Chinese have global ambitions. They will take advantage of weakness to gain a dominant influence over the UK if they can. What they have influence over, denies others having influence over. Also it is a matter of regaining pride.

I agree the British do need to decide what they are going to do. Indecision just creates uncertainty.
User avatar
By Seeker8
#14891229
It was NATO, not the EU, who attacked Libya. And the U.S and U.K with the most military involvement. Germany weren't involved.
User avatar
By Heisenberg
#14891235
The distinction between NATO and the EU is not nearly as sharp as people like to pretend. Their ideological leadership and strategic goals are pretty much identical. If anything, NATO today exists as a form of plausible deniability for the EU. "It wasn't us, it was them! No, it isn't relevant that the membership of the two organisations overlaps massively, I swear!" :lol:

Besides, the intervention in Libya was primarily led by France and Britain. The US played more of a back seat role.
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