Gunman in shooting spree at Florida high school. Many injuries. ...What is wrong in the USA? - Page 24 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14891151
SpecialOlympian wrote:Who cares about the details? The fact of the matter is that conservativism is a mental illness and as Dana Loesch said the mentally ill should not be allowed to own weapons. I thought it was brave of her to say she should not own a firearm.

Actually she was referring to people like you.
Looks like I need to donate to the NRA again.
#14891158
Drlee wrote:Some do. California, for example, has already banned assault weapons.

And it matters fuck all. The San Bernardino terrorists simply broke the law. :roll: As if they were going to commit murder, but buying an assault rifle was illegal so they decided not to go forward with their terrorist attack. :knife: California bans the sale of assault weapons. This is commerce clause material. The gun fanatics already know this like the back of their hands, and know they can machine out a lower from an 80% lower. It is your constitutional right to make, keep and bear a weapon. However, you have no right to buy or sell one--as that is commerce. Now California has become really tough. If you make a gun from an 80% lower, you have to register it. Guess who's going to do that? A: People who intend to obey the law. Guess who won't? ...

That's why 9/11 didn't happen, because Mohammed Atta didn't have his pilot's license. :moron:

Hong Wu wrote:So you're saying that Drlee is a conservative, just not an American conservative :D

He's an arch right winger by communist standards.

Rich wrote:Yeah like when has a citizenry defeated its government without the support of another government? The US wouldn't have defeated Britain without the support of the massive governments of France, Spain and Holland. its like these wankers who say, why couldn't the Iraqi people overthrow their government without US and British support, as if ever citizens defeat a government with intact security forces that is determined to stay in power without outside support.

Sometimes the security force simply acquiesces to change. The overthrow of Czarist Russia and the overthrow of the Soviet Union are examples where the extant state simply imploded. Slave rebellions like in Haiti were native, not external. Also, sometimes states simply acquiesce in their attempts at tyranny in the face of armed opposition.

Hindsite wrote:It looks like the FBI and the local authorities goofed up big time on this one.

The government at every level fucked up on this one. They even had an armed guard at the school, who apparently waited for police to arrive. Nice.

Crantag wrote:A strongly feel that these should be banned, possessors should be fairly compensated for turning in the items, and as I said again, mandatory minimum prison sentences should be imposed for those that fail to turn in the relevant items, and as I also said, I may even support paying snitches a reward to report on such people, in this narrow application.

It's unconstitutional. Gun control uses the commerce clause. It cannot interfere with the right to keep and bear arms. It can prevent purchases and sales. They try to make it murkey with "posession" as "possession with the intent to sell."

Crantag wrote:Wrong. It looks like there was nothing in his criminal background to disqualify him from purchasing the guns, under the prevailing standards.

That's because after 3 dozen visits from the county sheriff, FBI tip offs, etc., the DA decided not to prosecute the felony assault he committed. Maybe it's because "Cruz" sounded too Spanish, like he was an illegal immigrant or something. So they decided not to prosecute him.

Crantag wrote:The church shooter in South Texas also passed a background check. In that case, the Airforce was criticized for not properly reporting his criminal information to the FBI.

Try to keep up.

This is why the government isn't the best place to search for a remedy. They fail to protect us from criminals, and then want to strip us of our ability to protect ourselves.

Zagadka wrote:People freak out in active fire situations, even trained professionals. Which makes the whole "give teachers guns" suggestion make absolutely no sense.

Let's give students guns. That should make things more interesting.

Crantag wrote:A security officer at a school is a good common-sense security measure attainable with resources on hand in many cases, but all of these supposed fixes which ignore stricter gun control are mere misdirection.

Gun control only applies to the law abiding. That's why it doesn't work. Anybody that wants to kill can get the weapons necessary to do so.
#14891159
Let all the teachers carry guns and we would have more of this. lol

A teacher in Utah accidentally shot herself in the leg Thursday inside an elementary school building.

Just before 9 a.m., Michelle Ferguson-Montgomery accidentally discharged her gun while using a faculty restroom at Westbrook Elementary School in Taylorsville, the principal said in a letter to students' parents. The incident occurred before school hours, and no children nor staff were present. The teacher was in legal possession of her gun on school property.

State law allows individuals to obtain a concealed-weapons permit and carry firearms onto school campuses, following the completion of a safety training course. Educators in possession of a weapon on school property must keep it with them at all times to prevent a student from finding the gun in a drawer or cabinet. The law does not, however, permit administrators to identify the faculty members who are eligible for licenses.


http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/utah-teacher ... ile-school
#14891160
Blackjack. You need to up your game. The Atta comment was absurd. Even for you. Even for a neocon.

Again. All of your examples point to criminals and terrorists. We are not talking about them.
#14891161
Yes.
Let's have armed filth at every school. Like this brave officer?

An armed officer who was at the Florida school where a gunman killed 17 people last week stood outside the building during the shooting and did not intervene, the local sheriff says.
The school resource officer has resigned after being suspended, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said.
"I am devastated. Sick to my stomach. He never went in," Sheriff Israel said.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-431646
#14891164
I don't make much if this. Modern cops are taught to stand clear and call the troops. An old fashioned cop would have charged in and killed the shooter or died trying.

This is about the overspecialization of cops. They love their tanks and assault weapons so much that they can't wait to use them. We have seen this every time. Cops outside watching running children while there may be an active shooter inside. Waiting for their shiny new tank to arrive.

Every soldier knows. Sometimes you just charge the machine gun nest.
#14891165
The sherif says the armed officer should have done something. The guy is a coward.

Sheriff Israel said Mr Peterson was on campus, armed and in uniform when the shooting at the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School campus in Parkland began.
He said video footage showed Mr Peterson arriving at the building where the shooting was taking place about 90 seconds after the first shots were fired and that he remained outside for about four minutes. The attack lasted six minutes, Sheriff Israel said.
Asked what Mr Peterson should have done, Sheriff Israel said: "Went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164634
#14891169
Drlee wrote:The Atta comment was absurd.

It's absurd to you, Drlee. The reason you find it absurd is that you are socialized to obey rules. So you believe that they will work, because you look at others in the world through your own preconceptions. It is that "rules-based" worldview that also makes you think you are inherently smarter than everyone else; yet, you failed to predict Trump's victory.

Drlee wrote:All of your examples point to criminals and terrorists. We are not talking about them.

The shooter in Florida was a criminal. The fact that he didn't have a criminal record is due to a complete failure of law enforcement. If the sheriff has been called to your residence 3 dozen times, you are more than likely a criminal. If a criminal complaint has been filed against you, but the DA doesn't like prosecuting poor confused 19 year olds, there is still probable cause to believe you might be a criminal. Every warning sign was there. The school district, the sheriffs and the FBI all knew this guy was trouble and did nothing. Gun control would not have stopped him. More police on the streets wouldn't stop him. The government clearly isn't the answer to this problem. They are part of the problem.

Drlee wrote:I don't make much if this.

Of course you don't. Unarmed football coaches have more sense than modern cops with guns, is that what you are trying to say?

Drlee wrote:Modern cops are taught to stand clear and call the troops.

They are not taught to stand down. They are taught to call for back up. However, they are not taught to allow a live shooter to continue his killing spree (except in cases where Black Lives Matter).

anarchist23 wrote:The sherif says the armed officer should have done something. The guy is a coward.

He was a total chicken shit bed wetter.
#14891172
They are not taught to stand down. They are taught to call for back up. However, they are not taught to allow a live shooter to continue his killing spree (except in cases where Black Lives Matter).


Tortured attempt to make your usual racist comment. Were you too afraid to try to work in the N word?

:roll:
#14891173
LaPierre attacked imaginary evils rather than defend his group’s hard-line policies, at one point accusing Democrats of wanting to “eradicate all individual freedoms.”

The elites don’t care not one whit about America’s school system and school children.

LaPierre also made a populist appeal by painting people who want common-sense gun control as either out-of-touch elites or socialists. (LaPierre’s base salary exceeds $1 million. He made more than $5 million in 2015, once his bonus was taken into account, according to tax documents cited by the Washington Post.)

“The elites don’t care not one whit about America’s school system and school children,” he said. “If they truly cared, what they would do is they would protect them. For them it’s not a safety issue, it’s a political issue. They care more about control and more of it, their goal is to eliminate the Second Amendment and our firearms freedoms so that they can eradicate all individual freedoms.”

He specifically called out a “tidal wave of new European socialist” leaders of the Democratic Party. The crowd booed as he listed off several names, including Sens. Kamala Harris (D-Calif.), Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), Cory Booker (D-N.J.), Christopher Murphy (D-Conn) and Rep. Keith Ellison (D-Minn.).

“Socialism is a movement that loves a smear,” he said. “Racists, misogynists, sexists, xenophobes and more. These are the weapons and vitriol these character assassinations permanently hang on their targets because socialism feeds off manipulated victims.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/w ... bb0fef501e




In the aftermath of the mass shooting at a Florida high school, the head of the powerful National Rifle Association has delivered a combative speech.
Here are seven of the things Wayne LaPierre blamed for the shooting......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-c ... r-shooting
#14891302
Another development and Trump is blaming everyone except the NRA. lol
This week the president proposed arming teachers as a solution to school safety, a method that has long been championed by the powerful National Rifle Association (NRA) gun lobby.
An armed officer who stood outside a Florida school where a gunman killed 17 people last week "certainly did a poor job", the US president has said.
Deputy Scot Peterson resigned after an investigation found he failed to confront the suspect.
President Trump said the officer trained his whole life but "certainly did a poor job" protecting students.
Mr Trump said Mr Peterson was a "coward" who "didn't react properly under pressure".
"He trained his whole life but when it came time to do something he didn't have the courage," Mr Trump told reporters outside the White House on Friday. "He certainly did a poor job."
This week the president proposed arming teachers as a solution to school safety, a method that has long been championed by the powerful National Rifle Association (NRA) gun lobby.
Mr Trump touted his love for the second amendment, which protects gun rights, while speaking at the Conservative Political Action Conference (Cpac) on Friday morning.

His comments came a day after Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel revealed that Mr Peterson, the 54-year-old school resource officer, stood outside for four minutes while the alleged gunman Nikolas Cruz gunned down students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.
He said video footage showed Mr Peterson arriving at the building where the shooting broke out about 90 seconds after the first shots were fired, and that he remained outside for about four minutes. The attack lasted six minutes, Sheriff Israel said.
"I am devastated. Sick to my stomach. He never went in [the school]," Sheriff Israel said.
Asked what Mr Peterson should have done, Sheriff Israel said: "Went in, addressed the killer, killed the killer."
Mr Peterson is yet to publicly comment on what happened. Officers are reportedly guarding his home.
Sheriff Israel said Mr Peterson had not given a reason for why he did not go into the building where the shooter was. It is unclear if he will face charges.
Sheriff Israel said he would not be releasing the video showing Mr Peterson and might never do so, "depending on the prosecution and criminal case" against the 19-year-old suspect accused of carrying out the shooting, former student Nikolas Cruz.
The gunman used a semi-automatic AR-15 rifle, police say, and escaped the scene before being seen and arrested later.
Why was Deputy Peterson there?
School resource officers are sworn law enforcement officers who are responsible for safety and crime prevention in schools, although their exact roles differ from school to school and authority to authority.
Employed by the local police or sheriff's office, they document incidents and can make arrests, as well as working on areas such as mentoring and education.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43174069
#14891310
anarchist23 wrote:Another development and Trump is blaming everyone except the NRA. lol


Why should President Trump blame the NRA?

The NRA doesn't run the school that got shot up; Broward Country School Distric does.

The NRA doesn't run the police department that employed the police officer who did not do his job on the day of the shooting.

The NRA isn't responsible for monitoring threats that are reported by concerned citizens.

Blaming the NRA for the shooting is as nonsensical as blaming the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers for people killed in car accidents.
#14891318
Why does Trump not blame the NRA?
The National Rifle Association donates millions of dollars every year to Republican lawmakers in Congress. And those same Republicans line up uniformly to block proposed gun control legislation.
The implication of these two facts appears obvious: Politicians are refusing to stem the bloodshed of gun violence because they’re getting what amounts to a legal bribe from lobbyists.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... s-money-no



Why is the NRA in some way responsible for the shootings?
The NRA is the major national organization standing against gun control, lobbying lawmakers into opposing any new restrictions on firearms and propagating an interpretation of the Second Amendment that makes it hard to pass policies that significantly limit access to guns. Based on the research, that makes it more likely that America’s extraordinary levels of gun violence will remain extraordinary.

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... tings-guns
#14891324
anarchist23 wrote:Why does Trump not blame the NRA?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... s-money-no

Why is the NRA in some way responsible for the shootings?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... tings-guns


We already have gun control. The NRA donates to Democrats as well.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals ... cycle=2014

The NRA wasn't involved in the shooting.

I haven't seen anyone blame the school for allowing the shooter to be on campus.
#14891327
maz wrote:The NRA donates to Democrats as well.

https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/totals ... cycle=2014


NRA contributed well over fifty times more to the republicans than the democrats. lol
Trump is the leader of the republicans? lol
Using your source...
$5,900,000 given to Republicans in 2016 election cycle
$106,000 given to Democrats in 2016 election cycle
#14891331
Drlee wrote:Tortured attempt to make your usual racist comment. Were you too afraid to try to work in the N word?

It was an obvious reference to South Chicago, where this has been going on for a very long time. Obama did nothing about it, and was even critical of police. The difference in Florida is that it happened in an affluent white neighborhood. That's why the media is covering it. Yet, they still had to try to make kids adhere to a CNN written script. So we didn't even get a chance to hear what a wide variety of students really thought. It was just CNN drivel coming out of the mounts of teenagers. I'm sure you're cool with that.

The police don't follow up as often on kids making threats, since a staple threat among minorities, such as blacks is, "I'm mo keeyell yooooouuu." If the police had to follow up on every terrorist threat, probably a third of minority children would already be in jail. As it is, the police are now having to take an active stance on this sort of thing. I think that's a good thing.

California student arrested with two assault rifles and 90 magazines after security guard overhears shooting threat
Notice we don't have any names or pictures of the arrestees?

Trump is totally awesome!

anarchist23 wrote:An armed officer who stood outside a Florida school where a gunman killed 17 people last week "certainly did a poor job", the US president has said.

It's still the case that Trump calls it like it is, and the establishment can't take it.
#14891348
Stormsmith wrote:I'm sorry if I overlooked you on TLTE I tend to read it over morning coffee, not my best time. I am also a socialist.

We all have a moral imperative to leave the world better than we entered it. The US has made progress: southern blacks are treated far better today then they were before Bobby Kennedy and LBJ. Women can chose to have a career, and more areas that had been blocked are open. Gays are more respectfully treated and can marry, and so on. Vaccines are saving lives. AIDS is not a death sentence etc.

Your blanket condemnation of America/Americans was harsh, lumping the decent people in with corrupt, and ignorIng the good America/americans do. I'm sure you know what Puerto Rico's murder rate is, but you always write so lovingly on Puerto Rico, and don't lump the decent Puerto Ricans in with the criminals.


Pants of Dog

Are you looking for a profile of a high school aged mass murderer?


Oh, Stormsmith, you truly don't understand the reasoning behind the way I express myself.

Would you feel great if Canada was invaded and the people and culture you come from had been in a position of absolute powerlessness? Answer how you would cope with many things if your circumstances were not the way they were? Especially in the present.

I am not speaking through your perspective Stormsmith. I find you being unfair in the extreme with me. I truly do.

All human societies make progress if people fight for it. And it is not the right who fight for social progress. Do you do it by praising this or that particular improvement that was only reached by some Black leaders getting their heads blown off and mass protests and fighting for YEARS? Of course there is progress in that sense. It can also be all rolled back due to a bunch of powerful corrupt people taking over the entire political apparatus. The only way to get it back is fighting it hard. Not praising about a progress that was made due to the people who cared enough to fight for a better future. I am part of that group. Not the group hating on Blacks, Latinos, hating progress. Puerto Rico is not some independent nation. If it has crime the position it is in is part of it. I love my family, so does everyone. I want freedom for that nation. I always have. Can't have that if the USA continues to hold it down. Should I be happy about that position Stormsmith? Because I am not. You think I should be ashamed of being Puerto Rican? I can't criticize American society? How unfair are you I wonder?

My moral imperative is not coddling what is making the USA government so oppressive not only with Puerto Rico but many other nations. Whether I like it or not I have to cope with the USA government. They made all of us USA statutory citizens by default. But refuse to deal with their horrible policies regarding us. It is not for praising American policy. American people? There are good ones and bad ones and decent ones and not decent ones. Like all people. But? I really did not appreciate you thinking I should do what? I lump in all Americans. I think you don't like how I am with the criticism. You should be focusing more on these racist haters and the supporters they have in the Trump administration. Not on a woman like me who had to live a bunch of problems and who has only worked hard, educated people for years and only have been an asset in every society she has lived in. Not only the American one.

Something is bothering you. I have no idea what it is. But you are being extremely unfair with me. Period.

Well, briefly back to the subject at hand. The kids from Parkland, Florida the only way they are going to get some progress is pressuring the present Trump administration. Fighting. Do you hear that Stormsmith? You are in a position of vulnerability, you lost some of your friends in a gun violence incident that is unfair and terrible...and then you FIGHT to change it. That is how you cope. Would you then praise the government who gave you push back and resistance to not doing a damn thing for change? Or would you get angry and push hard? Because Stormsmith that is what one has to do if you want change. I want CHANGE for my nation, Puerto Rico. Always have. Can't do it being soft on these people who are blocking the way. Can't do it. No way. I hope I made a correlation for you.

Somehow, I need to be what? Soft on these unjust horrible politicians and their ignorant followers? That is not the way to cope Stormsmith with change. Your sentence about Puerto Rican murder rates? Very revealing. I am from a nation with a high murder rate, so that means? What? Memphis Tennessee and other places in the USA have extremely high murder rates. So? Does that mean that they should not comment about the problems with the wider society? I think it means in your coded language Stormsmith that I should look at the faults in my own society first before criticizing the progress the USA has made. For me? That is a very revealing thing you did. It means you don't really understand a damn thing about colonialism and what it is like. You don't. You have no idea what that is about. If you did? You would not even go there. The USA is the one with the injustice. Unless, you deal with the ones creating the problem? And pushing them and forcing them to deal with it? You won't make a damn thing worth of progress. Nothing. The progress made with medicine, AIDS, same sex marriage, minorities and their rights, civil rights, etc. Where did it happen without severe criticisms of those in the power positions and the ones criticizing the powers that be? All of them were people who were wanting change and were people who organized themselves. I have always fought for all those advances. Why criticize someone who does that Stormsmith? I have no idea what the beef is with that. I can guess but that would be disrespectful of you. I have no desire to be disrespectful with you. I don't know what you have in your head about how I criticize the "Americans"....whom you think made progress. I happen to think right now (I did not before) that you got an issue on how I express myself. For better or for worse. If that is the case? Why don't you focus on your political opposites hatred of equality and of justice and not on me?

I will be honest. No, I don't like ignorant Americans who don't study their own history of their own nation. No, I don't like the ones who discriminate and are lazy with research about their own political structures and don't do much for improving society. No, I am not going to be soft on them on a political message board. If I were? I would not be here. Have better things to do.

I find your entire assessment of what I am about extremely unfair. I did not expect that from you. I admit I am highly disappointed in that Stormsmith. You are misinterpreting me totally. I don't know why. But it happens.

Don't tiptoe around issues with me @Stormsmith because I would rather air it out and let it out and go on with amiability than to let what you really think is wrong and not ever say anything and then let it fester. It is up to you really.

All I know is that you surprised me with such a lack of understanding of my position. If you were a socialist in all senses? I am not hard to interpret or understand. Ever.
Last edited by Tainari88 on 23 Feb 2018 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
#14891350
This is the post you wrote that began this dialogue:
Tainari88 wrote:No Oxymoron the important thing is for you to realize your society the USA is full of mass school shootings and fucked up values of loving money and being a bunch of lemmings.

It is the SHIT value system. And get ready for a lot more of those mass shootings. Trump passed a stand alone bill early last year letting it be easier for mental cases to get a hold of being able to buy guns. You got mental issues? That is ok. Get a gun anyway.

That is your fucked up society who loves making guns profit and who gives a shit about some kids dying innocently. The important thing is to love your damn gun more than your children feeling safe in a school.

Those kids had practiced active shooter and did all the protocols. They still got massacred. It is about values now.

Live your fucked USA values. It is YOUR CHOICE.

For me Right wing shit? It is about the worst of the worst. Hatred, no respect for human rights, killing and fear of everything. Greed, love to discriminate and love to be racist, love to disrespect, and love money above human life. Live your values. Have greed, have selfishness, racist pigs, no respect for human rights, and DEATH to innocent sweet children by alienated freaks who never got mental treatment because this society hates treating people for mental problems, physical problems etc unless they GOT A WHOLE LOT OF CASH.

Live your disgusting value system and enjoy the BLOOD and DEATH it creates. Enjoy your VALUES OF SHIT.


This was my response:

The lovers of gun profits is small: the owners of the factories, the NRA, and maybe hedge fund managers and private investors. Most people want sensible gun laws, but congress wont hear of it. Politians love the NRA, who has connections to Russia, ftr.

America hired Barack Obama and his supporters included a lot of nonblack people. Yes the US has a racist history and racism still exists, but they've been working to be more egalitarian over the course of my entire lifetime. I think your criticism is a little too unforgiving, given the advancements they've achieved.



I pointed out that there are a small number of Americans engaged negatively in this affair: the capitalists and the NRA through which congress involves itself. Most Americans are struggling, but in the end they want to leave America a better place. I stand by that, and I still think your post was over the top. The Floridian shooting had nothing to do with racism, Canada, or Puerto Rico. As to "I find your entire assessment of what I am about extremely unfair.", I don't think like offered an assessment of what you're about.
#14891352
Drlee wrote:I don't make much if this. Modern cops are taught to stand clear and call the troops. An old fashioned cop would have charged in and killed the shooter or died trying.

This is about the overspecialization of cops. They love their tanks and assault weapons so much that they can't wait to use them. We have seen this every time. Cops outside watching running children while there may be an active shooter inside. Waiting for their shiny new tank to arrive.

Every soldier knows. Sometimes you just charge the machine gun nest.


I think Drlee when a society has to talk about machine gun nests, arming school teachers with guns and having a school have to have trained military tactics going on? Like Trump blathered on about?

You got a serious problem with society. You do.

The solution is what? Arming teachers, more guns and more metal detectors. I think no one wants to admit the truth. You got a culture problem, accessibility to guns problem, and you got mental health and lack of dealing with mental health issues going on.

Is it going to be fixed? Trump like the unthinking fool he is, went on and on about a bonus for teachers who 'carried' guns to school. You look at De Voss' public school budgets? Her plan is not even going to help up the public school teachers salaries. So? They are going to pile on more responsibilities on public school teachers without rewarding them financially even. It is a big lie about a solution. He put that woman in charge to destroy public education not to make it a better profession for young college graduates to enter.

He puts people with no real experience as adminstrators in charge. To fail most probably. Like that HUD director ex surgeon. The millionaire religious right wing woman in charge of education. And many other people who are not professionals at their posts. Just that they are either bought in to the power position or they are useful puppets. It is pathetic.
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