Gunman in shooting spree at Florida high school. Many injuries. ...What is wrong in the USA? - Page 25 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14891355
Student Faces Expulsion After Saying a Math Symbol Looks Like a Gun
It never takes too long for liberal freak outs to turn into something absurd. We're going to have to change the square root symbol now, because it looks too much like a gun. Why don't we just outlaw the words "gun" and "shooting." That way we could end gun violence and shooting.
#14891358
Stormsmith wrote:This is the post you wrote that began this dialogue:


This was my response:



I pointed out that there are a small number of Americans engaged negatively in this affair: the capitalists and the NRA through which congress involves itself. Most Americans are struggling, but in the end they want to leave America a better place. I stand by that, and I still think your post was over the top. The Floridian shooting had nothing to do with racism, Canada, or Puerto Rico. As to "I find your entire assessment of what I am about extremely unfair.", I don't think like offered an assessment of what you're about.


Yes, Stormsmith all of this was a very interesting misinterpretation of what I said to Oxymoron. Who happens to very right wing and very much how he is.

It doesn't matter how much the Americans want to leave a better place Stormsmith. The system they are coping with is massively corrupt to the core. And people that are on the Right of the political spectrum like Oxymoron are part of the issue because they won't allow change to happen. And they are the ones voting for the lack of progress. How does one cope with them? Being what? Not telling them how rotten that entire stance is?

No, one doesn't insert oneself into the conversation with a very pro gun and pro no change supporter like him with not that kind of language. It has to be very direct. Fucked up values. Because they are. That is what is killing those kids. Fucked up value system and the Right in the USA who love their sacred guns funneling money and time and effort into not changing.

What is going to change Stormsmith? No, if you don't like my style of saying things....I don't care about style. I care about what the message is. It is your nation's value system is awful. Because it is. If the Americans at large wanted to change this horrific system before it got this bad? Would have been a lot more active and would have changed it. But it has not. Why? No political will to do so. Why? Too many people either apathetic and not organized enough and with enough money and power to make it happen. The USA American society at large is responsible for that. It is. But it is also the Right. I mentioned the Right. In that second paragraph. Because I already know the Left is active trying to change it.
#14891402
The solution is what? Arming teachers, more guns and more metal detectors. I think no one wants to admit the truth. You got a culture problem, accessibility to guns problem, and you got mental health and lack of dealing with mental health issues going on.


I agree. And if the schools are going to arm teachers they should pay these teachers like policemen. That will stop this "armed teacher" nonsense in its tracks.

We do not really deal with any mental health issues. Even our private insurance is very limited in what it covers. Until we have universal, single payer, government funded, health care we will not have any meaningful mental health program in the US.
#14891404
Drlee wrote:I agree. And if the schools are going to arm teachers they should pay these teachers like policemen. That will stop this "armed teacher" nonsense in its tracks.

We do not really deal with any mental health issues. Even our private insurance is very limited in what it covers. Until we have universal, single payer, government funded, health care we will not have any meaningful mental health program in the US.


Bullshit. More than 170 school districts in Texas already have armed teachers. They probably pay them a small stipend just like they paid me to be the chess club sponsor. I agree that we need single payer health care just like the rest of the civilized world.
#14891405
"The mainstream media love mass shootings. I'm going to say it again; the mainstream media love mass shootings…and you, the mainstream media just put out the casting call for the next mass shooter." –Colion Noir



Another thing the NRA is not responsible for is making many schools gun free zones so cowardly criminals can come in and shoot unprotected children without fear of being shot themselves. The mainstream media wants congress to make laws to keep guns away from law abiding citizens so they can not protect themselves from these criminals, who don't give a damn about laws they don't obey anyway. This way the mainstream media can report on more mass shootings at soft targets to increase their viewers and ratings. What the NRA does do is defend our second amendment rights. That is why I am proud to be an NRA member. Praise the Lord.
#14891453
This is the way forward. The business community cutting their support of the NRA. It's behaviour is responsible for the US being awash with weapons.

More than half a dozen US companies have cut ties with the National Rifle Association (NRA) as consumers urge a boycott of businesses linked to the politically powerful gun lobby.
The firms included car rental giants Hertz and Enterprise, which offered discounts for NRA members.
The moves follow NRA leader Wayne LaPierre's speech defending gun rights.
They were the NRA's first public comments since a deadly school shooting in Florida.
Mr LaPierre said "opportunists" were using the 14 February tragedy, in which 17 people were killed, to expand gun control and abolish US gun rights.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43173753
#14891490
I don't think the NRA contingent is as large as the anti-NRA contingent, personally. By the laws of subtraction, the latter prevails, based on my own assumption.


I agree. The key is to paint 2nd Amendment uber alles as the fools they are. The best way to defeat them is to embarrass them by showing just how unintelligent their position is. I can't think of a single really smart person who is an absolutist on any subject.

When I see an armed civilian not on a gun range or hunting I see a fool. A dangerous fool. I want others to see this too. I support businesses that put 'no-guns' signs in the window.

Here is what to do in states like Arizona where open carry is allowed. If you are in a store and an armed person (not a cop or security person) walks in, tell the manager that you do not shop where armed people are allowed and leave immediately. You can rest assured that the local convenience store won't care but when you walk out on a big furniture sale, or cell phone upgrade they will take notice.

Sure gun owners shop too. But we are not trying to take most gun owners rights away. We are trying to teach the children among them to behave like adults. Remember that only about a third of people even own guns. About 70% of them own handguns.

The peer-reviewed study concluded that roughly 9 million people carried loaded handguns at least one a month, including 3 million who carried them every day. People who carry handguns at least once a month were disproportionately likely to be conservative men between the ages of 18 and 29 residing in Southern states.

Four out of 5 of them said that personal protection was the primary reason they carried a loaded handgun. Nearly 6 percent reported being threatened by another person with a firearm at least once in the past five years. And 1 out of 5 reported carrying a concealed handgun without a permit, even in states where such a permit is required.


This year, for instance, a comprehensive analysis of decades of crime data found that states that made it easier to obtain concealed-carry permits saw a 10 percent to 15 percent increase in violent crime in the decade following the change.

A separate study published Thursday in the American Journal of Public Health, using more recent data, bolsters that finding. It specifically examined the difference between two types of concealed-carry laws — more permissive “shall-issue” laws, which require authorities to give permits to any individual meeting certain minimum requirements, such as age and residency; and more restrictive “may-issue” laws, which give authorities the discretion to decide whether to issue permits.

Examining crime data from 1991 to 2015, the study, conducted by a team of researchers from Boston University, Children’s Hospital Boston, and Duke University, found that “shall-issue concealed carry permitting laws were significantly associated with 6.5% higher total homicide rates, 8.6% higher firearm-related homicide rates, and 10.6% higher handgun-specific homicide rates compared with may-issue states.”


It is just a matter of time before even the Georgia crackers are brought under control. The myth that one is safer with a weapon than without one will eventually become public knowledge.

It is very encouraging that following the president of the NRA's speech this week many corporations cut off their ties with the NRA as Anarchist23 pointed out.

People who advocate "when necessary only" licensing for concealed carry, the abolition of military style weapons and large capacity magazines must stay on the message that we are not trying to ban guns but rather constrain the proliferation of ridiculous ones and insist that gun owners act like adults.

(I am a gun owner and always have been. I have carried and used automatic weapons and would not own one even if I could. Not even a semiautomatic assault rifle. Because I am not stupid.)
#14891517
A friend brought up a nice idea for gun control. That's insurance. if you want to have a gun, then you have to insure it(just like you would a car). The deadlier the gun is, the higher the premiums. If you cannot pay them, you have to give up the gun.
#14891530
Tainari88 wrote:The system they are coping with is massively corrupt to the core. And people that are on the Right of the political spectrum like Oxymoron are part of the issue because they won't allow change to happen.

Change is happening. It's just not going the way you want it to go. In the United States, the right to keep and bear arms precedes the constitution itself. In the United States, the people are sovereign, not the government.

Tainari88 wrote:And they are the ones voting for the lack of progress.

The ability to get 100s of rounds of ammo off in a few minutes IS progress. An AR-15 is progress. It's just not the kind of progress you prefer. Just like the flame thrower: :flamer:

Tainari88 wrote:Fucked up value system and the Right in the USA who love their sacred guns funneling money and time and effort into not changing.

However, it is generally not right wingers who are engaged in these mass shootings. There is not a unified political movement behind them other than the calls from ISIS to kill Westerners. Mostly, you have mentally ill people who spent their childhoods playing first-person shooters who are now hopped up on Venlaxafine or whatever and have difficulty distinguishing between a video game and reality. There were a lot of debates on this in the 1980s about sex-drugs-&-rock-n-roll culture in music, followed by hip-hop and gangsta violence in music, followed by debates on violence in movies. Remember, the v-chip was implemented during the Clinton years. What difference does that make in a world of hyper violent video games, Netflix, Amazon Prime and every other streaming service that bypasses v-chip and every other effort to indoctrinate the society toward more beastly behavior? None. You got the world you people were pushing for. It's not to your liking. Deal with it.

Tainari88 wrote:I care about what the message is.

:roll: Another person driven by narratives. sigh.

Tainari88 wrote:Too many people either apathetic and not organized enough and with enough money and power to make it happen.

The left is responsible for the society as it has become. They pushed for easy divorce, recreational sex, abortion on demand, recreational drug use, abandonment of traditional religious values, hyper violent media themes, and so forth. They called it "freedom of expression." Now you have a generation of people raised in that value system, and some products of it are some seriously disturbed people whose frustration-aggression response involves killing scores of people--innocent or otherwise.

Tainari88 wrote:Because I already know the Left is active trying to change it.

The left has actively tried to change it into what it is. They've succeeded. This is what it looks like. You want to do that economically? Just look at Venezuela to see what progress looks like. Many of us on the right do not want your idea of progress.

Drlee wrote:Until we have universal, single payer, government funded, health care we will not have any meaningful mental health program in the US.

They have it in the UK and most mental health issues go untreated. Basically, Western medicine sucks at mental health. There is more money to be made in not solving the problems. That's why the system is where it is.

Suntzu wrote:Bullshit. More than 170 school districts in Texas already have armed teachers. They probably pay them a small stipend just like they paid me to be the chess club sponsor. I agree that we need single payer health care just like the rest of the civilized world.

Well, the failure of security guards to do anything is a testament to wasting money on the ideas of big government types. People do not have the self-interest to run toward a suicidal-homicidal shooter and take him out unless they are a target. We can't rely on the police either.

Hindsite wrote:"The mainstream media love mass shootings. I'm going to say it again; the mainstream media love mass shootings…and you, the mainstream media just put out the casting call for the next mass shooter." –Colion Noir

If it bleeds, it leads...

Hindsite wrote:What the NRA does do is defend our second amendment rights. That is why I am proud to be an NRA member. Praise the Lord.

I'm a life member myself. I guess it's time to make a donation.

anarchist23 wrote:The business community cutting their support of the NRA. It's behaviour is responsible for the US being awash with weapons.

No. People wanting to have guns is the reason the US has so many weapons. The NRA does not manufacture or sell guns to anyone.

suntzu wrote:The are two sides to that coin. I vote with my wallet, too.

A lot of these firms figure that out when trying to boycott conservative views. Minds.com is probably going to become a serious competitor to YouTube now after they decided to start demonetizing conservatives.

Crantag wrote:I don't think the NRA contingent is as large as the anti-NRA contingent, personally. By the laws of subtraction, the latter prevails, based on my own assumption.

That's about how Hillary Clinton approached her failed election strategy.

Drlee wrote:The key is to paint 2nd Amendment uber alles as the fools they are.

The phrase "über alles" is German and means "above all." What are you trying to say? You've got some modifiers there. How about a noun so that your sentence has a subject?

Drlee wrote:The best way to defeat them is to embarrass them by showing just how unintelligent their position is.

How well did that work for you in the 2016 election? I recall you saying that Trump could win, but only if he listened to your advice, but alas he didn't. He won anyway.

Drlee wrote:I can't think of a single really smart person who is an absolutist on any subject.

If only you were as smart as Adlai Stevenson, you'd see why your point is ridiculous. While the story is somewhat apocryphal, a women supporting Adlai Stevenson allegedly said to him, "Governor, you have the vote of every thinking person!", to which he replied, "That's not enough, madam, we need a majority!" :smokin:

Godstud wrote: if you want to have a gun, then you have to insure it(just like you would a car). The deadlier the gun is, the higher the premiums. If you cannot pay them, you have to give up the gun.

That would be nice, except owning a gun is a right, not a privilege. You can't get around the old Second Amendment Godstud.
#14891534
blackjack21 wrote:Change is happening. It's just not going the way you want it to go. In the United States, the right to keep and bear arms precedes the constitution itself. In the United States, the people are sovereign, not the government.


The ability to get 100s of rounds of ammo off in a few minutes IS progress. An AR-15 is progress. It's just not the kind of progress you prefer. Just like the flame thrower: :flamer:


I disagree. The way the second amendment was written in the 18th century had no conception of how it would be interpreted, and how gun manufacturers in the 21st century would be manipulating politicians for their own gain. The second amendment was about the abuse of British troops going into Colonial American farms and lands and eating their grain, killing their life stock, taking their properties and putting up their soldiers without paying people and confiscating their guns knowing that the Colonials might use it against the British army. It was done within a historical context. It was not some inalienable right to bear arms forever and that the progress of super high powered killing weapons should be allowed into the hands of 19 year old nutcases who were expelled for erratic illogical behavior from a school in a 21st century circumstance. I also think it ridiculous that after that kid (Nikolas Cruz) adopted mother died Linda Cruz, that the hosting foster parents thought it normal for a disturbed teen thrown out of schools for erratic behavior was ok to have a series of assault and war weapons in their home. They thought there was only one key to the gun safe and they stated they thought they had the only key. The kid had a second set of keys. He must have practiced with the weapons some time...and they thought is was ok? I have my issues with those people too.



However, it is generally not right wingers who are engaged in these mass shootings. There is not a unified political movement behind them other than the calls from ISIS to kill Westerners. Mostly, you have mentally ill people who spent their childhoods playing first-person shooters who are now hopped up on Venlaxafine or whatever and have difficulty distinguishing between a video game and reality. There were a lot of debates on this in the 1980s about sex-drugs-&-rock-n-roll culture in music, followed by hip-hop and gangsta violence in music, followed by debates on violence in movies. Remember, the v-chip was implemented during the Clinton years. What difference does that make in a world of hyper violent video games, Netflix, Amazon Prime and every other streaming service that bypasses v-chip and every other effort to indoctrinate the society toward more beastly behavior? None. You got the world you people were pushing for. It's not to your liking. Deal with it.


Don't even try to say I pushed for that shit. The USA has adopted a liberal and neo liberal paradigm and the media and the entire culture is a pro capitalist/liberal/conservative paradigm and it has NOTHING to do with my international socialism at all. Gangstas live in capitalist societies all over the world. Not just in the USA. Hyper violent video games are invented by tech companies located in various nations. It is part of the culture of violence, and what sells on TV. Who says I approve of that shit? I don't. In fact, I have written extensively about cutting off all electronics for my child and I and my family. I won't even have a TV to watch in 6 months form now. Probably for the rest of my life. I think it is all junk in general. To say or even imply I created this shit society is totally fabricated on your part. I am not personally responsible for the failings of liberal and conservative bullshit style Americana culture filled with stupidity, consumption, and media trash information. All to manipulate people into buying more crap programs, video games, consuming all kinds of bad time killing, anti intellectual habits in people. You are responsible being some American who believes in this society as the Great Hope of Humanity. When it has become a big cesspool of sellout politicians rotten and backstabbers to ordinary voters. You don't even live in a country who allows the candidate with the highest number of popular votes to be the president and have the audacity to criticize other societies. Look at the log in your eye before you point out the straw in some other nation's problems.

:roll: Another person driven by narratives. sigh.


Another person driven by no analysis but his own.

The left is responsible for the society as it has become. They pushed for easy divorce, recreational sex, abortion on demand, recreational drug use, abandonment of traditional religious values, hyper violent media themes, and so forth. They called it "freedom of expression." Now you have a generation of people raised in that value system, and some products of it are some seriously disturbed people whose frustration-aggression response involves killing scores of people--innocent or otherwise.

That value system is under American style capitalism. Take responsibility for it completely. You are pro capitalist? Pro profit? Pro guns? You are definitely responsible for ALL of that mierda. Not me.

The left has actively tried to change it into what it is. They've succeeded. This is what it looks like. You want to do that economically? Just look at Venezuela to see what progress looks like. Many of us on the right do not want your idea of progress.


Well Blackjack the majority of the world is not well off in California thinking everyone is happy with the status quo. The sooner you realize unless you deal with billions of people living in absolute abject poverty and who are potential burn the ass of the rich if the conditions are right....and you stop hiding your head in the sand about the realities of desperate people who are in desperate circumstances that unless you cope with them will turn your society into a chaotic and difficult to live in mess eventually. It is bound to happen unless conservative cushy, big bank account fools start realizing that unless they cope with some investments into helping everyone out in the entire world and at home? No one is going to live in a bubble of protection from the ones who might decide to blow your ass away when you are not looking and drinking or eating in a public place without the ability to reach for your gun. It creates tremendous social ills. Take responsibility you rich man with arrogant bullshit class conscousness on your brain. Take responsibility.
#14891541
Godstud wrote:A friend brought up a nice idea for gun control. That's insurance. if you want to have a gun, then you have to insure it(just like you would a car). The deadlier the gun is, the higher the premiums. If you cannot pay them, you have to give up the gun.

Is your friend a retard? Is he so stupid that he can't see the difference between cars and guns?

Private car ownership has social costs but almost no societal benefit, while guns have a huge social benefit. Gun owners bring criminals to justice, dead or alive as the old saying goes. But they also deter a huge amount of crime. Burglary and rape levels in America are incredibly low given the huge, violent, normally misogynistic criminal class in the united States. People that don't own guns are protected by those that do.

The problem in the gang ridden communities is too few of the law abiding majority have guns. This allows the criminal minority to terrorise the decent law abiding majority. Confronting the murderous criminal scum can be frightening. In such a situation ordinary citizens may well fire a number of shots and miss. It is vital that law abiding citizens have semi automatics. Guns have been known as the equaliser. Giving the peasant and worker the same power as the aristocrat. However the true equalisers are the semi automatics.
#14891563
Godstud wrote:A friend brought up a nice idea for gun control. That's insurance. if you want to have a gun, then you have to insure it(just like you would a car). The deadlier the gun is, the higher the premiums. If you cannot pay them, you have to give up the gun.


I like this idea. We buy insurance for our houses, cars, and lives. Why not buy insurance for guns, including accidental discharges. Save the public from paying lawsuits when the shooter is sued.

An American comedian suggested that users be charged 5k per bullet. That would make anyone think twice about buying those massive magazines
#14891572
The Second Amendment to the US-Constitution was established in 1789.
It fixes the right of citizens to carry weapons.
At this times it took one whole minute to manage a second shoot with the same weapon.
Accuracy was fifty meters distance at best.
And let us remember, that was at the very beginning of industrial revolution, which enhanced capability of homicide up to present level.

Nowadays a rifle is a quite different thing. It is vastly more accurate and fires easily ten rounds a second.
Shame on those who deny that difference.
Shame on those who obscure facts because being bribed.

A student of that very school, where now such mass murder occurred, as happened times and times before in US, gives us insights what that is all about.
#14891577
hartmut wrote:The Second Amendment to the US-Constitution was established in 1789.
It fixes the right of citizens to carry weapons.
At this times it took one whole minute to manage a second shoot with the same weapon.
Accuracy was fifty meters distance at best.
And let us remember, that was at the very beginning of industrial revolution, which enhanced capability of homicide up to present level.

Nowadays a rifle is a quite different thing. It is vastly more accurate and fires easily ten rounds a second.
Shame on those who deny that difference.
Shame on those who obscure facts because being bribed.

A student of that very school, where now such mass murder occurred, as happened times and times before in US, gives us insights what that is all about.


That is the problem @hartmut . You got a bunch of bought off people. The entire congress, the USA senate, the White House is filled with bought off politicians. And the worst of it? They don't get paid billions of dollars. Some of these politicos for $50k or $100k you got them in the bag. And the SCOTUS decision of Citizens United makes bribing these politicians perfectly legal.

I have issues with the way the USA system works. One of them are people who don't pay attention to what the hell happens in their own government. They don't know, apathetic, don't vote, don't get involved. In France the government talked about raising the age of retirement by one year and the mass protests hit the streets. Here? They changed it from 68 years old to 72 for millions of USA working adults. That is four extra years of working to get your social security when you are old and least able to find employment that pays well and it will affect your check. No mass protests. Just accepting that crap like lemmings. I find it astounding. Almost half of the USA citizens didn't even know Puerto Ricans were USA citizens. That they had an obligation to deal with the mess. Most did not ever hear of the Jones Act from 1920. They don't know SHIT about their own history. Living in total dark, ignorance and not getting involved. I am not saying that the American public is the only one like that in the world. But it touts itself as the light of "Democracy" and 'Freedom'. But it acts totally the opposite. Perpetual wars and wasting money left and right. Driving up debt and being involved in unproductive and draining acts that is then passed on to the regular tax payer to cope with for generations.

This is the model they want the world in the Middle East to imitate? What model? Legal briberies by corporations. Raising the minimum retirement age and no ones says a damn thing about it. Cut the budget for free public education. Have a bunch of college students indebted for decades paying off student loans for overblown tuition fees from universities. Less and less services for the struggling classes. Deterioration of infrastructure. No more money for bridges, roads, etc. Trump says he will. No action so far.

Look at these Texan kids who went touring UNAM in Mexico and were shocked that the Mexicans who are supposedly 'inferior' to the USA and are corrupt, violent, and an inferior society? The kids said, "Oh, this Uni is FREE. For all." They are pondering this reality. If other nations have universal health care, free state universities for all and those are the LESS WEALTHY nations....how come the USA continues to do awful shit decisions politically and socially? Maybe because there is NO public will to make it happen. Lemmings. Apathy. Not getting involved. Sitting around and not burning some political rear end in DC like they should.

Who is to blame? The system is set up to insulate these incompetent, brazen lying politicians. You either confront that and FORCE it with unbearable pressure to change....or you sit back and let it go to critical mass and violence. Because that is the ultimate end of all this. So much lying, bribes and crap that it all ends in problems that are about blood being spilled. It is horrible.

#14891581
Well said.

You know, when 70 to 92% of the polled population want reforms to gun laws, all that should be left to do is decide the fine details. That is what should happen in a state where the people are the government.

And when people as clearly regard it foolish to make it easier for the mentally ill buy guns, then the bill shouldn't even make it to the table.

On the lack of public pressure vs the "Paul Reveres" Floridian students: this is were the press comes in. There are school shootings ever week. 18 from Jan 1 to Florida. That's 6 weeks or 3 per week. Now the media are enamored of these young, articulate students and giving them airtime. Hopefully it will inspire public support and cause congress to blush. God knows the media was not as helpful with the other 17 this year.
Last edited by Stormsmith on 25 Feb 2018 00:16, edited 1 time in total.
#14891583
Stormsmith wrote:Well said.

You know, when 70 to 92% of the polled population want reforms to gun laws, all that should be left to do is decide the fine details. That is what should happen in a state where the people are the government.

And when people as clearly regard it foolish to make it easier for the mentally ill buy guns, then the bill shouldn't even make it to the table.


The only way to change the 2nd Amendment is with another constitutional amendment. The procedure is clear.
#14891584
Even if 95% of the population wants something, Constitutional rights cannot be abrogated by popular vote, but by an intentionally difficult process. The United States is not a direct democracy by design. Its a constitutional federal republic and was created in opposition to mob-rule as much as any other form of governance that the founders opposed.

They feared, that when passions arose from disaster or tragedy, the public would act rashly and may even act to destroy the fabric of liberty and trample the rights of others.

I can see there point in light of this last tragedy more than ever and the above posts only confirm their fears. :hmm:
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