Former Russian spy for MI6 poisoned in UK. Is this the handiwork of the Russian FSB? - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14896012
Atlantis wrote:The British empire is giving the Russians an ultimatum, cave in by midnight, or else ...


That's the thing. I still don't think the Kremlin did this. I do believe that nerve gas has been compromised and lost within Russia - and I suspect Russia know this and will not admit this. But I don't think they would be so sloppy to use there own traceable weapons for what was a prisoner once - especially when they could have used a more deadly poison. But the UK shouldn't publically declare any opinions on this until concrete proof can be declared and published. It isn't worth a diplomatic argument and increased tensions over a hunch.

Talking about hunches and feelings. This is most definitely conspiracy, but does anyone else think the daugher tried to poison her father? She lived in Russia. She too was poisoned which could have been when she administered the gas. She could be trusted. And more importantly, any links from Russia to her father that was left, regardless if political or not, could be associated with her. I could be wrong. But sometimes even a conspiracy can be a fact. So does anyone else think this?

This story has much to run. And no doubt the British government will declare something and be proven wrong like always. The Tories love putting their feet in their mouths. I suspect lightning will strike again. They are that stupid.
#14896016
^You're substituting precepts for concepts, and concepts for thought. In other words, you're simplifying your own cognition in order to avoid the act of thinking about thinking. This kind of process enables you to engage in mechanistic dialogue, a form of dialogue that conveniently ignores the very process underlying dialogue. The great thing about mechanistic dialogue- you can now go about the conversation using things like A, B, C, D, E, because other people have been taught what to think instead of how to think about ABCDE. ABCDE regulate the discussion. Nonetheless, ABCDE are programs used to compress and communicate an experience, yet you only know what you've been told, not what you behold. :hmm: When will you remove the filters and actually start thinking about the nature of thought?

Now we wait for the wave to collapse. News articles, fragmentary reflections, labels, surely follow. The present is never enough for consciousness, especially when it's thinking about its actions.
Last edited by RhetoricThug on 14 Mar 2018 01:50, edited 2 times in total.
#14896019
RhetoricThug wrote:^You're substituting precepts for concepts, and concepts for thought. In other words, you're simplifying your own cognition in order to avoid the act of thinking about thinking. This kind of process enables you to engage in mechanistic dialogue, a form of dialogue that conveniently ignores the very process behind dialogue. When will you remove the filters and actual start thinking about the nature of thought?


If that is your way of saying that I am guessing RT, well you would be correct. I suspect I will be wrong. But I still think it is more likely than Putin being behind this.
#14896021
B0ycey wrote:If that is your way of saying that I am guessing RT, well you would be correct. I suspect I will be wrong. But I still think it is more likely than Putin being behind this.
Ah, so in this case, and apparently you agree, thought is a relative guessing game (peek-a-boo)? A process of matching. And when something new appears, thought does not know how to reflect it (perhaps that's why we choose to deflect it, :lol: as a cognitive reflex or reaction). Is that why we only reflect what others reflect? Bring to my attention a human thought that is not a reflection or fragment abstracted from the whole of BEING! Why is thought fragmented? Why do we provide ourselves with fragmented solutions when the nature of thought is a reflection of a holistic problem or happening (if you're uncomfortable with the notion of IT being a problem in the first place)?
Last edited by RhetoricThug on 13 Mar 2018 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
#14896023
RhetoricThug wrote:Ah, so in this case, and apparently you agree, thought is a guessing game? A process of matching. And when something new appears, thought does not know how to reflect it (perhaps that's why we choose to deflect it, :lol: as a cognitive reflex or reaction)? Is that why we only reflect what others reflect? Bring to my attention a human thought that is not a reflection or fragment abstracted from the whole of BEING! Why is thought fragmented? Why do we provide ourselves with fragmented solutions when the nature of thought is a reflection of a holistic problem?


Not all thought is a guessing game RT. But a thought without evidence is.
#14896026
B0ycey wrote:Not all thought is a guessing game RT. But a thought without evidence is.
Can evidence be absolute? Isn't evidence a side-effect of observation, and isn't observation a side-effect of thought, and isn't thought a side-effect of consciousness? If consciousness is a holistic movement, and thought a fragmentary reflection... Wouldn't that make evidence relative, not absolute?
#14896029
Decky wrote:The assassins are probably hiding in the Israeli embassy right now waiting to be smuggled home.
And if they're hiding in a geometric structure, does it change the past? There's only this present moment. Why is human thought obsessed with fragmentation?
#14896050
Pretty decent article on why Russia might have done this. They want to send a message. They wanted to get caught. Ironic then that so many on this forum want to deny it. Note most are either haters of the uk/west or leftists or alt rightists. Russia has many bed fellows these days and most are massive hypocrites.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... are_btn_wa
#14896054
The Guardian is establishment/imperialist dog-shit and anyone who reads it is a "hater" because this is how smart people debate. :lol:


Craig Murray wrote:The same people who assured you that Saddam Hussein had WMD’s now assure you Russian “novochok” nerve agents are being wielded by Vladimir Putin to attack people on British soil. As with the Iraqi WMD dossier, it is essential to comb the evidence very finely. A vital missing word from Theresa May’s statement yesterday was “only”. She did not state that the nerve agent used was manufactured ONLY by Russia. She rather stated this group of nerve agents had been “developed by” Russia. Antibiotics were first developed by a Scotsman, but that is not evidence that all antibiotics are today administered by Scots.

The “novochok” group of nerve agents – a very loose term simply for a collection of new nerve agents the Soviet Union were developing fifty years ago – will almost certainly have been analysed and reproduced by Porton Down. That is entirely what Porton Down is there for. It used to make chemical and biological weapons as weapons, and today it still does make them in small quantities in order to research defences and antidotes. After the fall of the Soviet Union Russian chemists made a lot of information available on these nerve agents. And one country which has always manufactured very similar persistent nerve agents is Israel. This Foreign Policy magazine (a very establishment US publication) article on Israel‘s chemical and biological weapon capability is very interesting indeed. I will return to Israel later in this article.

Incidentally, novachok is not a specific substance but a class of new nerve agents. Sources agree they were designed to be persistent, and of an order of magnitude stronger than sarin or VX. That is rather hard to square with the fact that thankfully nobody has died and those possibly in contact just have to wash their clothes.

From Putin’s point of view, to assassinate Skripal now seems to have very little motivation. If the Russians have waited eight years to do this, they could have waited until after their World Cup. The Russians have never killed a swapped spy before. Just as diplomats, British and otherwise, are the most ardent upholders of the principle of diplomatic immunity, so security service personnel everywhere are the least likely to wish to destroy a system which can be a key aspect of their own personal security; quite literally spy swaps are their “Get Out of Jail Free” card. You don’t undermine that system – probably terminally – without very good reason.

It is worth noting that the “wicked” Russians gave Skripal a far lighter jail sentence than an American equivalent would have received. If a member of US Military Intelligence had sold, for cash to the Russians, the names of hundreds of US agents and officers operating abroad, the Americans would at the very least jail the person for life, and I strongly suspect would execute them. Skripal just received a jail sentence of 18 years, which is hard to square with the narrative of implacable vindictiveness against him. If the Russians had wanted to make an example, that was the time.

It is much more probable that the reason for this assassination attempt refers to something recent or current, than to spying twenty years ago. Were I the British police, I would inquire very closely into Orbis Intelligence.

There is no doubt that Skripal was feeding secrets to MI6 at the time that Christopher Steele was an MI6 officer in Moscow, and at the the time that Pablo Miller, another member of Orbis Intelligence, was also an MI6 officer in Russia and directly recruiting agents. It is widely reported on the web and in US media that it was Miller who first recruited Skripal. My own ex-MI6 sources tell me that is not quite true as Skripal was “walk-in”, but that Miller certainly was involved in running Skripal for a while. Sadly Pablo Miller’s LinkedIn profile has recently been deleted, but it is again widely alleged on the web that it showed him as a consultant for Orbis Intelligence and a consultant to the FCO and – wait for it – with an address in Salisbury. If anyone can recover that Linkedin entry do get in touch, though British Government agencies will have been active in the internet scrubbing.

It was of course Christopher Steele and Orbis Intelligence who produced for the Clinton camp the sensationalist dossier on Trump links with Russia – including the story of Trump paying to be urinated on by Russian prostitutes – that is a key part of the “Russiagate” affair gripping the US political classes. The extraordinary thing about this is that the Orbis dossier is obvious nonsense which anybody with a professional background can completely demolish, as I did here. Steele’s motive was, like Skripal’s in selling his secrets, cash pure and simple. Steele is a charlatan who knocked up a series of allegations that are either wildly improbable, or would need a high level source access he could not possibly get in today’s Russia, or both. He told the Democrats what they wish to hear and his audience – who had and still have no motivation to look at it critically – paid him highly for it.

I do not know for certain that Pablo Miller helped knock together the Steele dossier on Trump, but it seems very probable given he also served for MI6 in Russia and was working for Orbis. And it seems to me even more probable that Sergei Skripal contributed to the Orbis Intelligence dossier on Trump. Steele and Miller cannot go into Russia and run sources any more, and never would have had access as good as their dossier claims, even in their MI6 days. The dossier was knocked up for huge wodges of cash from whatever they could cobble together. Who better to lend a little corroborative verisimilitude in these circumstances than their old source Skripal?

Skripal was at hand in the UK, and allegedly even close to Miller in Salisbury. He could add in the proper acronym for a Russian committee here or the name of a Russian official there, to make it seem like Steele was providing hard intelligence. Indeed, Skripal’s outdated knowledge might explain some of the dossier’s more glaring errors.

But the problem with double agents like Skripal, who give intelligence for money, is that they can easily become triple agents and you never know when a better offer is going to come along. When Steele produced his dodgy dossier, he had no idea it would ever become so prominent and subject to so much scrutiny. Steele is fortunate in that the US Establishment is strongly motivated not to scrutinise his work closely as their one aim is to “get” Trump. But with the stakes very high, having a very loose cannon as one of the dossier’s authors might be most inconvenient both for Orbis and for the Clinton camp.

If I was the police, I would look closely at Orbis Intelligence.

To return to Israel. Israel has the nerve agents. Israel has Mossad which is extremely skilled at foreign assassinations. Theresa May claimed Russian propensity to assassinate abroad as a specific reason to believe Russia did it. Well Mossad has an even greater propensity to assassinate abroad. And while I am struggling to see a Russian motive for damaging its own international reputation so grieviously, Israel has a clear motivation for damaging the Russian reputation so grieviously. Russian action in Syria has undermined the Israeli position in Syria and Lebanon in a fundamental way, and Israel has every motive for damaging Russia’s international position by an attack aiming to leave the blame on Russia.

Both the Orbis and Israeli theories are speculations. But they are no more a speculation, and no more a conspiracy theory, than the idea that Vladimir Putin secretly sent agents to Salisbury to attack Skripal with a secret nerve agent. I can see absolutely no reason to believe that is a more valid speculation than the others at this point.

I am alarmed by the security, spying and armaments industries’ frenetic efforts to stoke Russophobia and heat up the new cold war. I am especially alarmed at the stream of cold war warrior “experts” dominating the news cycles. I write as someone who believes that agents of the Russian state did assassinate Litvinenko, and that the Russian security services carried out at least some of the apartment bombings that provided the pretext for the brutal assault on Chechnya. I believe the Russian occupation of Crimea and parts of Georgia is illegal. On the other hand, in Syria Russia has saved the Middle East from domination by a new wave of US and Saudi sponsored extreme jihadists.

The naive view of the world as “goodies” and “baddies”, with our own ruling class as the good guys, is for the birds. I witnessed personally in Uzbekistan the willingness of the UK and US security services to accept and validate intelligence they knew to be false in order to pursue their policy objectives. We should be extremely sceptical of their current anti-Russian narrative. There are many possible suspects in this attack.
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives ... judgement/
#14896055
B0ycey wrote:That's the thing. I still don't think the Kremlin did this. I do believe that nerve gas has been compromised and lost within Russia - and I suspect Russia know this and will not admit this. But I don't think they would be so sloppy to use there own traceable weapons for what was a prisoner once - especially when they could have used a more deadly poison.


You think of the Kremlin as a government, but it's more like the Mafia. Killing defectors in a unique way sends a clear message: First, it was us, second, it will happen to you. The Russian public is pretty much irrelevant in all this, they either approve anyway or believe in the spoon-fed propaganda.
#14896069
B0ycey wrote:I still don't think the Kremlin did this. I do believe that nerve gas has been compromised and lost within Russia - and I suspect Russia know this and will not admit this.


Any lab in the world with the knowledge of the chemical structure could have made the toxin:

And while the agents were invented in the Soviet Union, other labs with access to the chemical structures would be able to manufacture them too.

The Guardian


Since this type of nerve agent was first revealed by a Russian defector in 1992, labs worldwide have had 25 years to reproduce these substances. The British would not have been able to detect it, if they hadn't known the chemical structure.

Because no standard test exists for Novichoks, defence officials may have taken fluid from the Skripals’ spinal cords, isolated the acetylcholinesterase enzyme, and analysed the structure of the nerve agent attached, says Boland. Western intelligence agencies probably have knowledge of the exact Novichok structures, allowing them to detect a match, he says.

New Scientist


B0ycey wrote:But I don't think they would be so sloppy to use there own traceable weapons for what was a prisoner once - especially when they could have used a more deadly poison.

Video footage show Skripal walking around a supermarket without body guard. If the FSB would have wanted to kill him, they could have hired anybody to kill him with a kitchen knife or by hitting him over the head with a stone, then steal his wallet and make it look like a mugging. Nobody would have been the wiser. Nobody would have been able to prove FSB involvement.

Killing somebody with a rare Russian nerve toxin is like leaving the name card of the FSB next to the corps. That makes only sense for somebody who wanted to implicate the FSB and Putin, which leaves us with Western intelligence services and/or Russian dissidents. The aim is obviously to increase tension between Russia and the West.

Talking about hunches and feelings. This is most definitely conspiracy, but does anyone else think the daugher tried to poison her father?

If it had been a family feud, she would have used some other means. The average citizen without secrete service or Mafia connection doesn't have access to the chemical formula.

She had just come from Russia to visit her father in the UK. One scenario could be that she carried the nerve toxin for a deal her father had arranged to supply the toxin to a 3rd party and that they made a mistake in handling the substance.

But the most likely scenario is still that the spooks cooked up something with dissidents or the Mafia to make Putin look bad before the election and to increase tension between Russia and the West.

There are many EU countries that want to scrap the Russian sanctions. Now, that the UK is leaving the EU, the strongest advocate of maintaining the sanctions will be gone. In other words, the cold warriors need other ways of generating conflict.

Putin simply doesn't have any motive to use this very special substance for an attack on the UK. The demonstration of the nerve toxin, like the nuclear bomb at Hiroshima, is not necessary because it is well known by secrete services around the world.
#14896086
I have no problem believing Russia has been framed in this case. I also have no problem believing that Putin has been framed by elements within Russia.

What makes the lie so easy to sell (Russia has traditionally resorted to these types of tactics) also makes it suspicious. Using nerve gas that was developed in the Soviet Union? Using nerve gas at all? I'm having trouble seeing the upside in using this type of assassination method.

The really scary scenario would be that this was not perpetrated by any government or intelligence agency.
#14896141
(soundtrack)

layman wrote:Pretty decent fragmentary thoughts on why humans might have done this. They want to send a message. They wanted to get caught. Ironic then that so many on this technological extension of thought want to deny it. Note most are either haters of the human condition or human myths or relative fragments of the total human experience. Humans have many bed fellows these days and most are massive hypocrites
I agree, layman. It's like humanity doesn't understand that it's harming itself. I'm not sure why collective insanity is the dominate form of communication.



@RhetoricThug Ever notice how people get fragments of the whole story from other fragments of the whole story?

Notice how people get fragments of the whole story from other fragments of the whole story.
What are you implying, RT?

What are you implying, RT?

Humans have one mind.

Humans have one mind.

:eek: Wait, so the internet, because it's an extension of human thought, is a material representation of a single self-aware/self-organizing/self-driven mind?

So the singularity already happened? Consciousness and the material world is that primordial ΩONEΩ? But RT, if we're IT and IT is us, why does human thought fail to recognize that it's a fragment of a single thought? Does collective insanity create personal sanity? Does humanity need division to multiply? Furthermore, isn't this idea an abstraction (abstraction from abstraction) anyway... Another concept? I'm confused. :?:

I'm confused.

Image
Shhhhhhhhh...We can never know or understand IT, thus we know no-thing. We can only learn 'things' from each other, or from IT. However, IT is I, and I is IT... The 'I' is an illusion, but it's the 'I' driving the whole of BEING (everything that exists) or ΩONEΩ I to achieve SELF-realization. Once we or 'I' sees itself for what IT is, IT's over. The observation collapses itself. The universe ends. 'I' am no-thing without IT because We're IT.

We can never know or understand IT, thus we know no-thing. We can only learn 'things' from each other, or from IT. However, IT is I, and I is IT... The 'I' is an illusion, but it's the 'I' driving the whole of BEING or ΩONEΩ I to achieve SELF-realization. Once we or 'I' sees itself for what IT is, IT's over. The observation collapses itself. The universe ends.
You tripping, bro.
You tripping, bro.
No. I'm being honest, you narrow minded twit! We're a system of reverberation flowing/passing through one another.

We're a system of reverberation flowing/passing through one another.
Whatever, I still think you're smoking something :roll:

I still think you're smoking something

Good. This means that the universe is still happening. :rainbow:








Be seeing you,

-The∞Universe
#14896210
layman wrote:Pretty decent article on why Russia might have done this. They want to send a message. They wanted to get caught. Ironic then that so many on this forum want to deny it.

If by "pretty decent article" you mean "filler padded out with pure speculation" you might have a point.

The article quotes anonymous sources who are explicitly speculating. The only name source is a Georgian detective fiction writer. To claim this as proof of anything is absurd, let alone that "Russia wanted to get caught". To claim that those of us who aren't immediately convinced are "deniers" is ridiculous.

Now, to reiterate, I'm not saying it's impossible that Russia did this, although I am very wary of the Government pointing fingers before the police have come close to concluding an investigation.

Basically, if it's so clear cut and we're all insane cranks, you should be able to produce some harder evidence than an openly speculative opinion piece.
#14896218
All is speculation at this point @Heisenberg

The point is there is a reasonable motive for Russia. They often use the victim hood narrative/ unite against the West tactic to rally support. Just like nearly every country it is a very common and old tactic to use a common enemy. Just look at the uk and now the eu both using it.

The uk is quite blatantly weak right now and isolated. A perfect time to stir up a fight. It will also test the water in how much Europe and trump react. @Atlantis attitude that Russia is a better potential friend than the uk is probably an increasing, though still minority, position in the continent.

Makes far for sense than a false flag by mi6 or fucking Israel.

Ps when did I say people should be immediately convinced?
#14896242
layman wrote:Pretty decent article on why Russia might have done this. They want to send a message. They wanted to get caught. Ironic then that so many on this forum want to deny it. Note most are either haters of the uk/west or leftists or alt rightists. Russia has many bed fellows these days and most are massive hypocrites.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... are_btn_wa


This article is pure speculation. There is not a shred of evidence. And there is still no credible motive for the FSB.

1. The theory that Putin would deliberately stir up trouble to win the election is absurd.

2. At this stage, Putin has no motive for wanting to discredit the Steel report. Even IF Skripal was a source, that motive would point to Trump not Putin.

3. And finally, that Putin attacks the West to divide the West is totally absurd. Brexit and Trump are doing a very fine job of dividing the West. A Russian nerve toxin attack on a Nato member would unite not divide the West.

4. Mossad trying a desperate attack at Russia at a moment Putin/Assad are about to win in Syria is credible.

The whole article is a desperate attempt to avoid the obvious.

The most likely scenario is Western war mongers and/or Russian dissidents (spies, oligarchs, Mafia, etc.) in London fabricating a plot to vilify Putin and put pressure on Russia.

Why is Trump using every means to force Nato countries to increase their defense budget at a time the US together with its allies spends about 20 times of what Russia spends?

Why are British media churning out anti-Putin reports at a frenetic rate while keeping quite about British involvements in Yemen?

Why are Russian oligarchs in London openly urging the West to support/arm the Russian opposition?

You people are so willing to let yourself be brainwashed to rush open-eyed into a major conflict. You keep on ranting about the so-called elite, yet you are willing to believe the most absurd lies from people you know have always lied to you.

When will you ever learn?

The proof is in the Powell: :lol:
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Last edited by Atlantis on 14 Mar 2018 10:37, edited 1 time in total.
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