[Sivad]

I'm sure it's nice to get away from the diseased consumerism of the US for a while but Cuba isn't the kind of society in which most of us would care to take up permanent residence. So let's not romanticize it, Cuba is a poor, underdeveloped, and authoritarian society where the majority of people are oppressed and suffering.

[jimjam]

I'm sure it's nice to get away from the diseased consumerism of the US for a while but Cuba isn't the kind of society in which most of us would care to take up permanent residence. So let's not romanticize it, Cuba is a poor, underdeveloped, and authoritarian society where the majority of people are oppressed and suffering.

This guy has never set foot in Cuba and he has determined that the majority of people are "suffering". nuff said .

Look at these poor suffering wretches. They are crying out to be liberated. No problem there that McDonalds, KFC and some Mafia gambling joints cannot fix .

[jimjam]

The new normal in America:



No "suffering" here ^

[Sivad]

This guy has never set foot in Cuba and he has determined that the majority of people are "suffering". nuff said .

I don't know how someone could spend time in Cuba and remain totally oblivious to the fact that there are shortages of basic necessities, crumbling infrastructure, dilapidated urban slums, regular power outages, human rights abuses, rampant corruption, and political repression?

Look at these poor suffering wretches. They are crying out to be liberated.

I never claimed there was no joy or happiness in cuba so I don't see how three pictures of some people enjoying themselves addresses anything I wrote?

No problem there that McDonalds, KFC and some Mafia gambling joints cannot fix .

Where did I say American consumerism is the ultimate recipe for happiness and the solution to all Cuba's woes?

[jimjam]

I don't know how someone could spend time in Cuba and remain totally oblivious to the fact that there are shortages of basic necessities, crumbling infrastructure, dilapidated urban slums, regular power outages, human rights abuses, rampant corruption, and political repression?
I never claimed there was no joy or happiness in cuba so I don't see how three pictures of some people enjoying themselves addresses anything I wrote?
Where did I say American consumerism is the ultimate recipe for happiness and the solution to all Cuba's woes?

I have dozens more pictures if you like
You do have some half truths which do not lend themselves to the on the ground conclusion that the Cuban people are "suffering". Perhaps you are using your Gringo values to judge non Gringos. In traveling around the globe for half a century I have, over and over, seen a massive lack of understanding on the part of America of other cultures followed by an annoying habit of trying to Americanize the world.

There is hope for you Savad .............. you may yet gain a measure of wisdom after the passing of a few more decades (if this battered old human race survives that is).

[QatzelOk]

The weird dissonance between "I wanted to go buy stuff" and "it's grand there is nothing to buy" is wierd but leaving that alone. It's obnoxious for you to be so enraptured by the quaint lack of an economy that the natives have. That isn't socialism that is lack of access to goods. What you find so charming is their poverty.

You misunderstand once again.

I forgot my M n Ms at home, and couldn't find this kind of candy in Cuba. But I DID find healthy whole-wheat cracker packages, and peanut brittle. Everywhere. Which is what I really needed for bike-ride energy.

I found sunglasses in Hoguin the first time I went and didn't have any. But the second time, when I was wearing sunglasses on my face and looking for a second and third pair for "gifts," no one had any. Or at least, didn't reveal if they did. (the first time, when I NEEDED sunglasses, the service person pulled out a box from under the counter).

So the type of shopping that is found in Cuba has little to do with our almighty Western purchasing power, and more to do with finding the things you really need.

I suspect that Cubans won't even sell you stuff if they figure you don't really need it. That may be an example of internalized socialism, which was, I think, the real objetive of Marx and his writings.

[skinster]

Yanks bitching about Cuba/Cubans is just...I don't know, does it hurt them that Cubans are a happy/loving people.

[jimjam]

Yanks bitching about Cuba/Cubans is just...I don't know, does it hurt them that Cubans are a happy/loving people. :?:

I think you put your finger on, perhaps, my most important observation about Cuba. I found the people to be very friendly and warm hearted. In America there is fear on the streets while citizens hide behind locked doors fondling their guns. No fear on the streets of Havana that I could detect. Another thing not obvious to the brain washed Americans' knee jerk reaction to evil communists is free medical care, a concept that is anathema to the "pay or die" American Medical Industrial Complex. And let's not forget Cuban cigars. The best I have ever smoked. I brought 54 of them back with me . In the photo below I have discovered another suffering Cuban .

[skinster]

I think you put your finger on, perhaps, my most important observation about Cuba. I found the people to be very friendly and warm hearted.

I'm yet to go but I learned this from my book on Cuba, as well as watching travel videos to Cuba online...and from some stuff that @Tainari88 said.

[Sivad]

I have dozens more pictures if you like

You could go to the North Korea and find people smiling and having a good time. That doesn't mean the place isn't a shithole or the people there aren't suffering and oppressed. I think the Cubans are doing remarkably well considering all they're up against, but denying their suffering does them a disservice.

Perhaps you are using your Gringo values to judge non Gringos.

Yeah the people in cuba are different than people everywhere else, they like being politically repressed and not having ready access to the basic essentials of modern life.

The Cubans are voting with their feet -
Surge in Cuban immigration to U.S. continued through 2016
Overall, 56,406 Cubans entered the U.S. via ports of entry in fiscal year 2016, up 31% from fiscal 2015 when 43,159 Cubans entered the same way, according to the latest U.S. Customs and Border Protection data. Fiscal 2015 saw an even larger surge, as Cuban entries jumped 78% over 2014, when 24,278 Cubans entered the U.S. And those 2014 numbers had already increased dramatically from previous years after the Cuban government lifted travel restrictions that year.

Changes to immigration policy will not stem the Cuban exodus, those on the island say
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation- ... rylink=cpy

[jimjam]

You could go to the North Korea and find people smiling and having a good time. That doesn't mean the place isn't a shithole or the people there aren't suffering and oppressed. I think the Cubans are doing remarkably well considering all they're up against, but denying their suffering does them a disservice.

No difficulty finding shitholes in America where people are suffering and oppressed but, considering this, I think they are doing remarkably well. Denying their suffering does them a disservice.

[Sivad]

No difficulty finding shitholes in America where people are suffering and oppressed but, considering this, I think they are doing remarkably well. Denying their suffering does them a disservice.

What's your point? I'm not denying that, I fully recognize that there are shitholes in the US where people are suffering and oppressed.

[jimjam]

What's your point? I'm not denying that, I fully recognize that there are shitholes in the US where people are suffering and oppressed.

Essentially I am wondering what your point is and using a double entendre. This has devolved into an endless pissing contest. Where do you live?

[Sivad]

Essentially I am wondering what your point is

My point is that Cuba hasn't proven that capitalism and technology are failures and that slum tourism is distasteful.

[the documentary]Canción de Barrio shows poor Cubans, aware of their invisibility in a country that supposedly eliminated classes.

The mostly black and mestizo residents document in detail the accumulation of hardships that they face, such as the lack of proper sanitation, routine flooding, collapsing housing, and the unresponsiveness of local authorities. And yet, the characteristic humor of Cubans shines through. One woman points to the damage done to her home during the last hurricane. She shows where her kitchen had collapsed and how her bathroom ceiling fell in. “There it is,” she says, resigned. “I have to bathe under the stars.”

One elderly woman in Canción ponders why Cubans have to bulk up their coffee with chicharos, or split peas, when coffee is produced in Cuba. “And me?” she asks, poignantly. “Who am I? What is the point of being Cuban? Why did we fight for this revolution? For what?”
https://www.thenation.com/article/cuba- ... io-review/

[jimjam]

My point is that Cuba hasn't proven that capitalism and technology are failures and that slum tourism is distasteful.

I had to take a break to talk with an old friend who is contemplating suicide.

Your point is well taken but these are matters of opinion which differ. Perhaps my evidence is antidotal and perhaps your evidence is second hand through the eyes of someone with an agenda. I travel frequently to Miami where many Cuban ex patriots live and they hate present day Cuba with a vengeance. This is understandable. They lost much as a result of the revolution. I have been to Cuba and I would hardly remember my experience as "slum tourism". That sounds like a term used by a bitter ex patriot. My experience was a wonderful visit to a place that was safe, laid back and welcoming. Material aspects were not up to American standards but this did not seem to make Cubans unhappy. On the contrary they seemed well fed, in good health and carefree.

Are capitalism and technology failures? For some yes and for some no. For myself, no. I tend to reject the propaganda and not dance to the dollar. I also avoid the "normal people". I find them mentally ill, fat and boring. For those who live in fear behind locked doors fondling their guns while eating shitty food and taking pills ........ looks like a failure to me. Overall I would say that a government rife with lies, greed and a complete absence of empathy for one's fellow citizens is ..... a failure, in spades.

Where do you live?

[Crantag]

The economic framework in the preeminent capitalist countries systematically measures well-being on the basis of the trappings of capitalism (assessed transferred marketed values). It ignores subjective necessaries for sustainable productive life: food, shelter, medical care, education, community, security, etc.; none of which are by necessity dependent on marketed transferable values.

Shelter can be built by oneself or one's familiars; food can be grown or otherwise distributed (and the relative labor price of chefs and servers varies, and the extent to which it varies upward the 'assessed value increases); likewise with medical care, education, etc.

At's a sham framework for assessing the well-being of actual people (one flaw is that higher labor costs associated with food production potentially inject hardship in the way of variation from typical broader earnings, for example).

The education level in China is far above that of the US (I work with many Chinese students now).

The post-1949 history of China saw a rapid rise in education standards and literacy levels, a dramatic reversal and regression during the Cultural Revolution, and a re-ascendance following the death of Mao Zedong. Education is one of the core aspects of present Chinese society and the present Chinese system.

I remember when I was in like 2nd grade a Cuban guy came to my class, and told fed us a bunch of anti-Cuba propaganda. In hindsight, I think the teachers were sort of fucked to let him in.

[Sivad]

perhaps your evidence is second hand through the eyes of someone with an agenda.

I lived in section 8 projects growing up so I know first hand that poverty is shit. I've also known quite a few Cuban immigrants and I've heard from them about how difficult life in Cuba is. The only reason there are so many people still on that island is the government wouldn't let all of them leave and the West wouldn't let all of them in.

I have been to Cuba and I would hardly remember my experience as "slum tourism"

It's one thing to say the people of Cuba are happy despite all the poverty and oppression, but when you idealize poverty as the simple life and claim the people are happier and better off for it then you're just a clueless tourist that doesn't know shit about what those people are going through and doesn't care to know. That's what I call slum tourism.

Are capitalism and technology failures? For some yes and for some no.

The only thing worse than capitalism is authoritarian socialism. Authoritarian state socialism is a colossal failure and makes capitalism look good by comparison.

[Crantag]

It's exceedingly rational for ambitious people born somewhere like Cuba, as well as most other places in the world (I'm one of them, coming from Rural USA) to want to migrate in search of higher pay or broader opportunities.

It is also exceedingly ignorant to presume that all (or even most) people from underprivileged backgrounds wish to become uprooted migrants.

[Sivad]

What are any of you even arguing here? When people are taking to the open sea on makeshift rafts in a desperate attempt to escape poverty and oppression and the government has criminalized departure you know there's a problem in paradise.

[Decky]

A handful of traitors and criminals hardly represents some sort of national exodus.