[B0ycey]

The issue today is that the Russians evidently took the extraordinary step of deploying a chemical nerve agent on British soil.

Please proved the proof of this. Even the UK government hasn't done so yet!

So until there is conclusive proof, Iraq is a fair comparison. It was a time when the goverment was certain to end up being found to be lying. And joe public seems to have forgotten that.

[noir]

We are living during interesting times. John Pilger (age 78) defends his imaginary Russia after decades of giving all sort of services to Soviet imperialism, packaged in humanistic terms of "anti imperialism", "anti colonialism" annd "anti racism", while in reality Putin has storng ties to all sort of xenophobic parties in Europe. Here the founder of Pegida in Germany, Lutz Bachmann (age 45) congratulates him for his "victory" in the "elections"

[Balancer]

Here the founder of Pegida in Germany, Lutz Bachmann (age 45) congratulates him for his "victory" in the "elections"

Well, actually, Putin was congratulated with the victory of almost all the leaders, except Trump and Teresa May From Merkel to Shinzo Abe. This, in general, partly shows who actually muds the water against Russia

[Atlantis]

I very much recall a spirited debate between 2003 and 2008.

I don't know about the US, where more than 60% supported the Iraq war. In the UK there actually was a substantial popular majority against the war. But that just goes to show the power of the government and the media to take the country to war even if the people don't want it.

Where was the sovereignty of the British people when they were taken into war against their wishes? Must have been the fault of the EU

Eventually the supporters of that invasion stopped arguing.

They stopped after the invasion, when it became clear that the Iraq war hurt American and helped Iran and Russia.

Many of them pretended that they never really supported it in the first place.

Exactly, Donald Trump today pretends that he was against the war, even though he is a million times more hawkish than GWB. The lies of the Iraq war serve a second time by bringing the populist Trump to power with even more lies.

Brilliant! America the beautiful you can be so proud of yourself!

There is an embarrassment of evidence.

There is embarrassment of the UK government and its unfathomable incompetence to fabricate a case without evidence and without reason.

Russia was invited by Bashar al-Assad to help prop up the world’s most brutal dictatorship.

Russia was invited by the legitimate government of Syria to defend its country against the brutal and crazed bunch of jidhadists that have been armed by the US and its proxies to topple the government of Syria.

Since oil was first discovered in Iran in 1908, the UK and the US have never stopped to usurp every single government that could have brought peace and stability to its people. A strong leader like Putin who can protect the oil resources of his country from foreign exploitation is the nightmare of Anglo imperialists.

Hardly a high moral perch from which to justify shooting down American planes.

Every single American plane in Syria needs to be shot down because America, Turkey and Israel together with their Sunni terrorist proxies unlawfully attack the country to make sure the civil war will not stop.

Putin is our only hope for ending the slaughtering in the Syrian civil war.

Once the Neocon narrative collapses, Western leaders will be exposed with their pants down, just like the GWBs, Cheneys, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitzes of this world.

[noir]

@Balancer, what is interesting here is the contrast between the Soviet stooges dinosaurs like John Pilger and Jeremy Corbyn and his current supporters.


Russia’s friends in black

Why Europe’s populists and radicals admire Vladimir Putin

https://www.economist.com/news/europe/2 ... ends-black

In the Kremlin’s pocket

Who backs Putin, and why

https://www.economist.com/news/briefing ... ins-pocket

Why Germans Love Russia

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/opini ... inion&_r=0

[Atlantis]

"Not a single MSM journalists has asked a British minister whether the Novichok was made in Russia, not a single one."

"After the structural formula of Novichok was published years ago, every first year chemistry student could have made it."

"Jingoism is an extremely powerful force in politics"

"Spying is a major industry in itself, employing about a 100,000 people in the UK's intelligence community"

The intelligence community (the deep state together it cohorts with neocons and exiled dissidents) is a state within a state. Today, that is even more true than it was in the 19th century when Emil Zola had to go into exile because he exposed the lies in the Dreyfus affair with his J'accuse.

The liars need to be accused and the lies need to be exposed, today more than in Zola's days.

[skinster]

I very much recall a spirited debate between 2003 and 2008. Eventually the supporters of that invasion stopped arguing. Many of them pretended that they never really supported it in the first place.

There was no real debate because there was no evidence of WMDs in Iraq. So Blair made up some dodgy 40-minute claim on Iraq being able to attack the UK or some shit like that, I can't remember exactly but it was just as bullshit as the WMDs lie. Not to mention how that story changed from Saddam being linked to 9/11. It was obvious bullshit and over a million people protested against it in London.

The debate that took place was between those that demanded evidence and didn't want war and those who wanted war and lied about how to make that happen.

Kind of similar to what this thread is about.

There is an embarrassment of evidence. Whether you consider it to be proof is a different debate.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/c ... 58911.html

You seem to have "proof" that's yet to be found in the last 15 pages. Quote the part you think is evidence.

Russia was invited by Bashar al-Assad to help prop up the world’s most brutal dictatorship. Hardly a high moral perch from which to justify shooting down American planes.

Syria is a sovereign state and can invite allies to help fight the various countries making war on her. The US is violating international law and committing war crimes by attacking Syria - just as it did in Iraq - along with its allies, including the Saudis for one, since you mentioned a "brutal dictatorship".

=====================

FUCK, CYCLES MAY BE RIGHT....

British police find Putin's passport at scene of Salisbury poison attack
Salisbury (dpo) - Last doubts over Russia's guilt in poisoning former spy Sergei Skripal have been eliminated. As the British government announced today, the passport of Russian president Vladimir Putin was found at the scene in Salisbury.

According to Prime Minister Theresa May, the passport was only now found in another search of the scene, as it had been hidden under a fallen leaf.

“Russia has 24 hours to extradite Vladimir Putin for questioning in London”, according to a statement issued by the British government. “Refusal will be taken as admission of guilt.”
http://www.the-postillon.com/2018/03/sa ... s.facebook

[Papokarlo]

Fair point, but the invasion of Iraq was debated and shown to be a massive blunder on the part of the neocons.

The issue today is that the Russians evidently took the extraordinary step of deploying a chemical nerve agent on British soil. Putin also promise to shoot down American planes in Syria. It's provocative, to say the least.

SVR of Russia leaves no residue)) know it
it would be foolish to use such a noticeable gas.

[Atlantis]

Well, actually, Putin was congratulated with the victory of almost all the leaders, except Trump and Teresa May From Merkel to Shinzo Abe. This, in general, partly shows who actually muds the water against Russia

The BBC Newshour yesterday claimed that Putin was completely isolated because only 3rd world leaders of failed states like Venezuela had congratulated him, while Western leaders from Germany and France had not.

The BBC has seen better days. They must be pretty desperate to resort to straight lying. Both Merkel and Macron congratulated Putin. Merkel sent Putin a message and Macron phoned Putin. Seems like the British are isolated.

Macron adresse ses vœux à Poutine

Kanzlerin Merkel gratuliert Putin zur Wiederwahl

Something doesn't smell right in that Anglophone bubble of their's

[noir]

It's all rather puzzle who supports who and why. It's obvious that Russia has a fan base of the dinosaurs left from the Soviet era (Pilger), on the other side, current globalist left (BBC) sees Putin's Russia as a rival to their vision and staunch supporter of all sort of populist right parties.

[Crantag]

It's all rather puzzle who supports who and why. It's obvious that Russia has a fan base of the dinosaurs left from the Soviet era (Pilger), on the other side, current globalist left (BBC) sees Putin's Russia as a rival to their vision and staunch supporter of all sort of populist right parties.

It tends to be my sense that the BBC is still stuck in the Cold War. Their propaganda is quite pernicious with respect to particular topics, and it seems to be in line with their traditional practice. That's just how it seems to me.

[noir]

Yes, but Russia moves on. That why it's funny to see dinosaurs left still supports him as if he is still the front of communist revolution. The BBC is very EUphile, very globalist, "anti racist" (euphemism for Islamism) and all the stuff. It's not a Cold War left.

[Seeker8]

Yes, but Russia moves on. That why it's funny to see dinosaurs left still supports him as if he is still the front of communist revolution.

Who on the left is supporting Putin?
By the way, not wanting the U.K to start a war based on lies doesn't count as supporting Putin.

[noir]

Pilger was mentioned in this thread.

[skinster]

Russia must be given nerve agent sample, Corbyn maintains Kremlin stance
Jeremy Corbyn has demanded that Russia be given a chance to verify the nerve agent used against Sergei and Yulia Skripal. The Labour leader said that, despite recent events, the UK must maintain “robust” ties with Russia.

Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s World At One program, Corbyn said: "I asked the Russians be given a sample so that they can say categorically one way or the other." The opposition leader urged people to wait for an assessment of the nerve agent from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical weapons (OPCW) before they “shoot from the hip.”

While MPs from all parties have pinned the blame on Russia for the attack on former Russian double agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia, Corbyn has defied the parliamentary consensus, demanding dialogue with Russia. The Labour leader held back from ascribing blame for the poisoning, and instead called for the proper channels of international law be explored before conclusions are drawn.

Corbyn added: "Would I do business with Putin? Sure. And I'd challenge him on human rights in Russia, challenge him on these issues, and challenge him on that whole basis of that relationship.

"You have to deal with people who are in the position they are as head of state… Russia is a huge country that suffered more than anyone else in the Second World War and we have to recognize that there has to be a relationship with Russia.

“Robust, yes, assertive, yes, demanding yes, but there has to be a relationship,” he said.

It comes after Prime Minister Theresa May was backed by NATO in her statement that Russia is “culpable” for the incident. She imposed a series of sanctions on Russia following the incident, despite there still being no details on the identity of the perpetrator and questions remaining over the substance used in the poisoning.

Skripal and his daughter remain in critical condition after being found slumped on a bench in Salisbury earlier this month. The investigation into the incident is ongoing with police warning that inquiries could take months.
https://www.rt.com/uk/421779-corbyn-rus ... al-poison/

[Seeker8]

Pilger was mentioned in this thread.

And? You said the left is supporting Putin. Show us how Pilger or the left is supporting putin.

[mikema63]

Anyone plugged into the nitty gritty of UK politics know how his stance is going to effect his position as labour leader and labour's electoral chances next election?

Beyond the argument over Russia itself corbyn seems to be putting himself in a difficult to navigate political position.

As for the left supporting Putin, the left should maybe carry less water for Russian propaganda on every issue.

[skinster]

According to weirdo rightwingers, if you promote diplomacy or not-war with Russia, it means you love Putin. And if you argue against war on Syria, you're an "Assadist". And if you oppose war on Libya, it means you love(d) Gaddafi, etc.

It's like dealing with children.

...corbyn seems to be putting himself in a difficult to navigate political position.

Not really. He'll likely be vindicated again, as he was on Iraq, and other war-related issues.

[mikema63]

Vindication, being right or wrong, is pretty independent of winning a leadership vote or election in the short run.

[skinster]

He's already won the leadership vote...twice. He's going to win the next election, settle down.