Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14898074
Sivad wrote:What are any of you even arguing here? When people are taking to the open sea on makeshift rafts in a desperate attempt to escape poverty and oppression and the government has criminalized departure you know there's a problem in paradise.

Yeah, I suppose. I for one don't know what I'm on about in here, it's the compulsiveness of the forum posting, as it were.

I don't really have any steady ground to stand on for forming a real position, speaking only for myself.

I did work with a guy in Alaska who was Cuban and who told me he made the boat trip, in a boat with 8 guys or something.

He was a really soft spoken huge black guy. He seemed a somber fellow, but in the fishery we were all pretty somber fellows, so there's that. I'd be interested to actually sit quietly and listen to what people with actual backgrounds like him have to say though.

I also called on a lot of homes in Florida of Cuban emigres when I was working there for a bit. They were essentially all very friendly people, who sometimes offered me delicious strongly brewed sweet coffee.

Anyway, I'll just take my seat and go back to 'listening' probably.
#14898181
Sivad wrote:I lived in section 8 projects growing up

America is not Cuba :eek: . ie. I doubt section 8 offered free medical.

Sivad wrote:quite a few Cuban immigrants


How many is "quite a few"? There are 11,500,000 people in Cuba. An immigrant/ex-patriot from Cuba is different from those who are happy to remain behind. As I mentioned, Cuban ex-patriots have hate spewed opinions of Cuba which differ considerably from Jorge Batista who is living happily amongst his extended family. Opinions of Cubans living in America differ like night & day from Cubans in Cuba. Your sample is not indicative of the reality of Cubans in Cuba.

Sivad wrote:you're just a clueless tourist that doesn't know shit about what those people are going through and doesn't care to know


You are obviously a clueless Gringo who doesn't know shit about a place he has never seen except through the haze of his prejudices and the eyes of hateful ex-patriots with an agenda. (and obviously doesn't care to know).

Sivad wrote:The only thing worse than capitalism is authoritarian socialism. Authoritarian state socialism is a colossal failure and makes capitalism look good by comparison.

Some more shit from the opinionated fog of an inexperienced young man. Hey, think about predatory capitalism which has been America's agenda for the past few decades and is currently priority #1 of the Republicans and the asshole in the White House. The so called "American Dream" is dead and the billionaires who pretend to be representing our welfare are doing a good job of keeping rubes like you sound asleep. I have seen 50 states. Talk to me after you hit 50.

I am losing interest in this pissing contest and must leave you at this time to have a bowel movement :| .
#14898196
Decky wrote:A handful of traitors and criminals hardly represents some sort of national exodus.


Yes, fuck those gusanos, of course they'll be bitching about Cuba, because they were of the higher class no doubt and didn't want to give those privileges up when the state became socialist.

Also, let's not forget that the US has an embargo on Cuba, if that wasn't the case, I'm sure things would be much better than they currently are.

And really, fuck anywhere that doesn't provide healthcare for its people. Healthcare is healthy care and caring is sharing and sharing = love and love is what's going on in Cuba, and @Sivad might be jealous of that love. :D
#14898217
Yeah fuck those guys who were murdered by the regime or fled the repression of the Cuban state. Clearly the only people we should trust or listen to are the people who don't complain about the Cuban state. It's so fun and easy to dismiss murder and suffering when it's for your ideology isn't it? Now you know what it's like to be one of those Americans who wont even begin to question stuff like the Iraq war. :lol:

That way I never have to have my own beliefs questioned or challenged.

Cuba doesn't have to be good for capitalism/consumerism/america to be bad. :eh:
#14898260
I just jogged 3 miles in 84 degrees and 78% humidity. I literally squeezed the sweat from my shirt. I consider this to be irrefutable proof that Cubans would have been better off living under the rule of Fulgencio Batista and Lucky Luciano.
Batista and his supporters took as much as $700 million in fine art and cash with them as they fled into exile.

I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins. In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.

— U.S. President John F. Kennedy, to Jean Daniel, October 24, 1963

Image
Fulgencio

Image
Lucky
#14898340
jimjam wrote:America is not Cuba :eek: . ie. I doubt section 8 offered free medical.


No, we had Medicaid, which was probably better care than what the average Cuban receives. The section 8 housing was also much better accommodation than the Cuban slums. The difference between my situation and that of the average Cuban was I had the opportunity to get out of the poverty, Cuba is an entire society generationally trapped in section 8 ghetto welfare.

Cuban ex-patriots have hate spewed opinions of Cuba


Most of the Cubans I've known were economic migrants, not political exiles. And they didn't hate Cuba or even socialism(some of them were socialists), they hated the poverty and they hated the authoritarianism.
#14898386
skinster wrote:Yes, fuck those gusanos, of course they'll be bitching about Cuba, because they were of the higher class no doubt and didn't want to give those privileges up when the state became socialist.


The ones that came over in the 70s and 80s were economic migrants, poor people that were looking for freedom from oppression and economic opportunity.

Also, let's not forget that the US has an embargo on Cuba, if that wasn't the case, I'm sure things would be much better than they currently are.


That's true but even if we're generous and say without the embargo the standard of living would have been double what is was under the embargo it would still be pretty crappy. And there still wouldn't be much economic freedom or civil liberties.

And really, fuck anywhere that doesn't provide healthcare for its people.

Absolutely.

@Sivad might be jealous of that love. :D


Maybe it's the anarchist in me but I'm just not down with Red Fascism. Liberal democracy is as statist as I can go, centrally planned one-party systems with an economic ideology baked in are anathema to me.
#14898413
Sivad wrote:You could go to the North Korea and find people smiling and having a good time. That doesn't mean the place isn't a shithole or the people there aren't suffering and oppressed.

What DOES prove that a country is a nasty place to live? Western media reports about foreign nations? The negative portrayal of the people of that country in Western media?

If you were to visit North Korea, and the people seemed noticably happier, calmer, and more satisfied than the shoppers at your own mall, would that "prove" anything to you? Or does Western media get to determine what you think of other groups of people?


Overall, 56,406 Cubans entered the U.S. via ports of entry in fiscal year 2016, up 31% from fiscal 2015 when 43,159 Cubans entered the same way,

So far, 110,000 people from France have migrated to Montreal in the last decade. Does this mean France is a total failure and horrible place to live, or are these migrants simply opportunists who are confident they can "get more" in Montreal?
#14898417
QatzelOk wrote:What DOES prove that a country is a nasty place to live? Western media reports about foreign nations? The negative portrayal of the people of that country in Western media?


So you think it's all just propaganda? You think the NK is a happy happy shangri-la? I'm like a hundred percent that it's a demented fucked-off shithole. The dead give away is the prohibition on emigration. Any society that forces people to live in it is almost certainly not a nice place to live.

If you were to visit North Korea, and the people seemed noticably happier, calmer, and more satisfied than the shoppers at your own mall, would that "prove" anything to you?


The people in Brave New World were all that, I still wouldn't want to live in that society. Really I only care about people like me, free thinkers who value liberty, independence, and self determination. I would carpet bomb a whole country of millions of twacked out bliss zombies just to liberate 1 actual real person.


So far, 110,000 people from France have migrated to Montreal in the last decade. Does this mean France is a total failure and horrible place to live, or are these migrants simply opportunists who are confident they can "get more" in Montreal?


France is six times the population of Cuba, and people emigrate for different reasons. It's fairly obvious that the drivers of emigration in France are very different from those of Cuba. People aren't fleeing France on makeshift rafts.
#14898523
Sivad wrote:So you think it's all just propaganda? You think the NK is a happy happy shangri-la? I'm like a hundred percent that it's a demented fucked-off shithole. The dead give away is the prohibition on emigration. Any society that forces people to live in it is almost certainly not a nice place to live.


Since you've never visitied North Korea, your opinion can ONLY be founded on Western mass media portrayals. Now, the same Western commercial media portrays America as some kind of paradise on TV and in movies, and we both know what a lie that is. Can't you extend this to media's negative portrayals? (America is as close to the Founding Father's ride at Disney World as North Korea is to mass media's scare memes.)

... I only care about people like me, free thinkers who value liberty, independence, and self determination. I would carpet bomb a whole country of millions of twacked out bliss zombies just to liberate 1 actual real person.

Carpet bombing is the best way to destroy other people's real freedom. So what kind of an ideology do you possess? One that is based on simple memes from a commercial propaganda-based society?

France is six times the population of Cuba, and people emigrate for different reasons. It's fairly obvious that the drivers of emigration in France are very different from those of Cuba. People aren't fleeing France on makeshift rafts.


France's population has no relevance as to the variety of reasons to emigrate. And rafts aren't needed in France because the country borders many other nations and isn't an island. Many of the French who immigrate to Montreal were much more miserable than the Cubans who have migrated to the USA. France is NOT more successful because it has nice buildings built on slavery and colonialism. Slavery and colonialism ruined French society internally.

Cuba isn't colonial, and it's people aren't the slaves of bankers or commercial psychological propaganda. They have a lot more free time than Americans do, and enjoy a lot more personal freedom with it comes to social relations.
#14898548
Sivad wrote:So you think it's all just propaganda? You think the NK is a happy happy shangri-la? I'm like a hundred percent that it's a demented fucked-off shithole. The dead give away is the prohibition on emigration. Any society that forces people to live in it is almost certainly not a nice place to live.


Sivad, you're indulging in extremes. Do you have to be utterly happy or utterly depressed for us to judge what a state and its people are like? Nowhere is either one or the other. What makes you think the DPRK is a "demented fucked-off shithole"? Do you think it's possible that you've eaten up the type of propaganda that you normally berate others for? I do.

Here, learn about North Korea:


I would carpet bomb a whole country of millions of twacked out bliss zombies just to liberate 1 actual real person.


This is fucked up. Unless you mean to carpet bomb the US to rescue me. :D

It's fairly obvious that the drivers of emigration in France are very different from those of Cuba. People aren't fleeing France on makeshift rafts.


Who are these people fleeing in makeshift rafts? I would've thought the richer types would be able to afford plane tickets to the capitalist hellhole they're desperate to settle in.
#14898570
I would think that the lifestyle of most typical North Koreans is fairly similar to the lifestyle of rural South Koreans; though particularly before the 1970s, when South Korea first surpassed North Korea in terms of gross national income.

As it were, South Korea was very authoritarian for the first several decades of its existence (it has existed since 1945), and North and South Korea were also both very authoritarian before that as well, under Japanese rule (which was worse than North Korean present-day rule, and spanned from 1908-1945). There are substantive differences between the different times and places of course, but there is precedent from these various settings to form bases of understanding (understanding North Korea is a difficult task for the most dedicated 'North Korea watchers' in this contemporary era we live in now).

Korean culture is typified foremost at the observable level by the Confucian customs (North and South, though I am sure the North is more conservative from a traditionalist standpoint, for quite obvious reasons). In addition to Confucian customs, there are very entrenched Korean cultural elements, which shape the lifestyles of Koreans, and North of the 48th parallel I have no doubt this is very much in play (there are also Korean communities outside of the Korean peninsula, such as on the Sakhalin islands, and in Kazakhstan, for example. The Sakhalin Koreans were forced laborers of the Japanese military, who became stranded there following the fall of the Japanese in WW2 and the sudden declaration of war against Japan by the Soviet Union after the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, and dash to capture the Northern Territories, much of which are still disputed). They were stranded because of the political climate of the time, which included refusal of Japan to grant them passage through Japan, but they held tight to their culture. So you could also go there probably to observe somewhat the lifestyle which people in North Korea likely maintain.

I recently for the first time rubbed shoulders with some North Koreans in the Beijing airport. It was at the Immigration line, and they were having difficulty with the forms because they were written in English and Chinese. I helped them by showing them my form and by speaking to them in Korean.

I saw one of them had a Cote D'Ivore visa in his passport, and they were just joking and laughing among themselves.

One of them kept leaving his passport on the counter and walking away, and leaving his bags on the ground and walking away, the latter for which a Chinese customs official kept scolding him in a humorous tone.
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