Saudi dictator meeting with American dictator - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#14898613
The preferable solution is to give self determination to Eastern province. No doubt there would initially be a serious terrorism problem, but the Shia militia in Iraq have shown themselves to be quite adept at cleansing majority Shia areas of terrorists. There's no reason what has been achieved in central Iraq couldn't be achieved in Saudi Eastern province. The Bahrain regime should be overthrown as well.
#14898626
@skinster, I liked the touch that they prepared those picture panels. That way it must be a lot easier for our Donny boy.

@Beren, after dealing with the US for a hundred years, there is nothing in Yankee vulgarity that could possibly shock the Saudis. Anyways, just because these guys look so cool in their wide robes doesn't mean that the Saudi fraternity of men is any less vulgar than the American fraternity of old white men.

layman wrote:Saudi is moving in the right direction just painfully slowly.

I thought that the progress achieved by bombing Yemen back into the stone ages was quite impressive. But I'm sure with the kind military assistance from the British they can achieve a lot more in that respect.

Image
As long as there are buildings still standing and babies not slaughtered you will not relent in your endeavor.

If you think the Saudis are on their way to reform, you are more naive than I thought.

Edit:
Rancid wrote:Trump is certainly not a dictator. The constitution has not been overturned, and the courts haven't been uprooted.

That said, Mr. Trump is certainly a buffoon.


He is fooling you all by projecting the image of a buffoon just like Boris Johnson in the UK.

Erdogan, Putin, Orban, Trump, et al., they are all on their way to autocratic rule. There are just cultural and constitutional differences. Erdogan, Putin, Orban, et al., do respect their respective constitutions. But they have found ways of subverting the pillars of democracy such as a free press, the independence of the judiciary and the independence of the central bank.

With the help of the oligarchy, Trump can weaken the traditional media by bankrupting them at a time they are losing money due to the new media. At the same time, he can offer a different media, like Breitbart, which is based on fabricating fake news.

Regarding the judiciary, while the PiSsers in Poland have taken control of the judiciary by a new law allowing the government to retire all senior judges, Trump will be able to replace most senior judges of the Supreme Court during his tenure. This means that Trump nominees may determine the US Supreme Court for decades to come.

Trump is also installing his people at the FED, the CIA, the FBI, etc. Civilization is only skin-deep. Below that, there is an ocean of fascism.
#14898632
As long as there are buildings still standing and babies not slaughtered you will not relent in your


You quoted me on a comment about internal reforms :roll:

Anyway, Spare us the crocodile tears and self righteous lectures. You wouldn’t care less if those pictures were victims of Assad, or Russia’s wars in Georgia, Chechnya or Ukraine. You only care when there is a link to the us or uk.

He is fooling you all by projecting the image of a buffoon just like Boris Johnson in the UK.


Wrong. He is s genuine idiot. He can barely pay attention in briefings and fails to understand basic policy. This is all well documented.

Just your usual dramatics then.
#14898639
You guys have already forgotten that Bin Salman was the architect of Saudi Arabia's foreign policy, which resulted amongst other things in the clusterfuck that is Syria, the unraveling of Iraq, the 'refugee crisis', the war with Yemen, the embargo of Qatar and of course a growing proxy war with the Iranian ayatollahs, which involves Sudan, Egypt, Israel and a number of other countries. Salman also struck a deal with the Russians in order to prop up hydro-carbon prices, which impacts the West negatively.

Trump knows how disloyal and treacherous Bin Salman is and is milking him for everything that he's worth.
#14898643
layman wrote:He seems like a reformer to me but time will tell.


I wonder where you learned that. :?:

Saudi is moving in the right direction just painfully slowly. It is probably preferable to a civil war which could well end in a full blown Islamist theocracy.


:eh:
Saudi Arabia is already Islamist theocracy.

Also, ha at agreeing with Brit/American politicians about maintaining good relations with the dictators of Saudi Arabia. I get why politicians would suck Saudi schlong, since they benefit by business deals and what have you, but...what's your excuse?

Atlantis wrote:...after dealing with the US for a hundred years, there is nothing in Yankee vulgarity that could possibly shock the Saudis.


KSA hasn't been dealing with the US for hundreds of years. It's existed for less than a hundred years. :)

Rancid wrote:Trump is certainly not a dictator. The constitution has not been overturned, and the courts haven't been uprooted.


You/we live in a one-party dictatorship with two parties that are basically the same and which are basically two sides of the same coin, which serve corporations, the end.
Last edited by skinster on 21 Mar 2018 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
#14898648
skinster wrote:You/we live in a one-party dictatorship with two parties which are basically two sides of the same coin, which serve corporations, the end.


I understand your sentiment, and I think you're hitting the right ideas/concepts. To me, dictatorship means there's a single dictator calling the shots (of course they are beholden to their inner circle, so they don't really have absolute power, but I digress). I would argue that what we have isn't a dictatorship. I'd prefer to describe it as a Junta between our government and business elites.

Dictatorship...Junta, these are just words though, and your point is, we're getting fucked in the ass, and I agree with that. :lol: :hmm:
#14898654
skinster wrote:KSA hasn't been dealing with the US for hundreds of years. It's existed for less than a hundred years. :)


I see the British/American efforts in the ME as a continuum, even though the two at times competed, they essentially pursued the same objectives. The British had official relations with the Saudis in 1901, but undoubtedly informal relations before that. In fact, British/Saudi cooperation led to the collapse of the Ottoman empire during WWI. I'm sure the Americans visited the Saudis even before opening official relations in 1931. Thus, the ballpark figure of "a hundred years" (not "hundreds of years") is good enough for me.
#14898744
Saudi Arabia is already Islamist theocracy.


Not really but whatever you call it,it can always get worse.

Anyways, you only want regime change when it is an ally of the west. When it’s not then they are anti imperialist saints like Assad which definitely don’t use methods just as brutal as Yemen.

Still, to be fair, I much prefer Assad’s regime to Saudi when it comes to how they ruled their own people. I just don’t pretend they are not just as brutal as each other.
#14898746
Atlantis wrote:But they have found ways of subverting the pillars of democracy such as a free press, the independence of the judiciary and the independence of the central bank.

What the fuck! Seriously? Private central banks making policy that isn't subject to legislative or executive oversight is a foundation of democracy?

skinster wrote:You/we live in a one-party dictatorship with two parties that are basically the same and which are basically two sides of the same coin, which serve corporations, the end.

You might want to pull Atlantis aside for a little chat...
#14898750
blackjack21 wrote:What the fuck! Seriously?


It is common knowledge that, apart from other institutions like free and fair election of a parliament etc., the

- free press

- independence of the judiciary

- independence of the central bank

are important features of democracy. It's well established, no need for debate, because a central bank that can be used by the party in power as a private printing machine to finance its clientele is detrimental to the nation and to democracy.

Private central banks making policy that isn't subject to legislative or executive oversight is a foundation of democracy?


Ah, I see why you misunderstood. I'm obviously not talking about the US plutocracy. I don't even know why you would consider a plutocracy to be a democracy. :?:

In Europe, central banks are not private. They are public institutions that operate within a constitutional frame and the mandate to guarantee the stability of the currency. Any profits achieved by the central bank is transferred to the national budget.

layman wrote:
Not really but whatever you call it,it can always get worse.


That's true. If an Islamist group like Al Qaeda were to overthrow the Saudi regime (which is their stated objective), it would indeed get worse, not only for the West, but also for the region. Therefore, I think it is legitimate to prop up the regime so it won't collapse; however, the US and the UK signing giant military contracts while virtually pushing the Saudis into the Yemen civil war is wrong.
#14898754
A generalized case against overthrowing governments in the interests of maintaining stability can be made. That isn't the prevailing practice upheld by the Anglosphere. The Saudis are propped up for reasons having nothing to do with the maintaining of stability and it seems unuseful to conflate policy toward the Saudis with any such notions of such ideals. One could possibly talk about stability in the context of Saudi Arabia with respect to oil prices.

On a peripheral point, ever notice the practice of US presidents flying to Saudi Arabia as soon as they take office? That's one of tje first things Trump did.
#14898755
Crantag wrote:A generalized case against overthrowing governments in the interests of maintaining stability can be made. That isn't the prevailing practice upheld by the Anglosphere. The Saudis are propped up for reasons having nothing to do with the maintaining of stability and it seems unuseful to conflate policy toward the Saudis with any such notions of such ideals. One could possibly talk about stability in the context of Saudi Arabia with respect to oil prices.

On a peripheral point, ever notice the practice of US presidents flying to Saudi Arabia as soon as they take office? That's one of tje first things Trump did.

Why should it surprise you? After all, a junky always tries to stay on good terms with his dealer. We're addicted to that sweet, sweet oil....
#14898759
The object of foreign policy ought to be security and stability. That is not what can be achieved by an expansionist Neocon ideology. But that doesn't mean that the objectives of security and stability are wrong. Just because US foreign policy is destructive doesn't mean that all foreign policy has to be destructive. To let Al Qaeda or ISIS overthrow the Saudis needs to be prevented.

Now, there are different ways of doing so. It is not necessary to arm the Saudis to the teeth and then let them wreck havoc in the region like a crazed blood hound.

Having said that, foreign policy does not happen in a vacuum. Every policy decision has its history. The spread of ISIS is due to a wrong US foreign policy decision. That wrong historical decision required another intervention against ISIS. Even those who oppose interventions on principle cannot reject an intervention for protecting the Yazidis from ISIS genocide. Likewise, French intervention to protect Mali from Qaddafi's mercenaries after these were driven out by the Franco/British intervention in Libya was necessary. @layman, at least the French did take responsibility for their wrong actions in Libya, while the British just buggered off to let others take care of the mess they had created. The British wouldn't deploy the RAF if there is no oil for BP in it.

Progressive Americans who lament the dysfunctional domestic and foreign affairs of their country fall into he opposite trap of rejecting all positive measures that can be taken to rectify problems. Likewise human rights and democracy are not wrong in themselves just because they have been used as pretext for imperial expansion by the Neocons.
#14898761
@Atlantis germams and Italians sell arms to Saudi as well. Only the Finns have actually withdrawn sales as far as I know. The fact that the uk sales are bigger hardly gives you much moral high ground.

Do you have a source that Saudi was pushed into this war? I would find it surprising is they needed much pushing. Saudi very much have their own agency here.

In fact this is where so many get it so wrong. The idea that the gulf states or turkey are American proxies is frankly absurd. They have their own agenda and interests and only go against them to serve other interests.

A true proxy does not. It seems to me this term is used more to cast all moral blame on to the big Satan rather than try to understand the world. A new multi polar world at that.
Israel-Palestinian War 2023

@JohnRawls No. Your perception of it is not. I g[…]

Russia-Ukraine War 2022

I'd be totally happy for us to send ground troop i[…]

Any of you going to buy the Trump bible he's promo[…]

There were formidable defense lines in the Donbas[…]