Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 9 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14899016
annatar1914 wrote:So you're a Utopian, I see.


No, I think the state is a necessary evil, I make a distinction between full blown anarchism and an anarchized state. I think we can implement some anarchist principles within the state through liberal democracy. I would take that anarchization as far as is practically, realistically feasible and no further.
#14899017
Fuck this esoteric circle jerk bullshit. These two were representative of the parasitic "government" that was milking Cuba's wealth and screwing the peons until Fidel came along and kicked their asses out. But not before Fulgencio ran into the night with $700,000,000 of the nation's wealth (not a bad day's pay :lol: ). With all it's imperfections and warts, Fidel did a great service to the Cuban people.

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Fulgencio

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Lucky
#14899018
jimjam wrote:Fuck this esoteric circle jerk bullshit. These two were representative of the parasitic "government" that was milking Cuba's wealth and screwing the peons until Fidel came along and kicked their asses out. But not before Fulgencio ran into the night with $700,000,000 of the nation's wealth (not a bad day's pay :lol: ). With all it's imperfections and warts, Fidel did a great service to the Cuban people.

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Fulgencio

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Lucky


Tell it like it is JJ! Batista was a crook and a tyrant, a parasite who drained his own country's lifeblood. Castro for all his faults was someone who looked after the interests of the common Cuban people the best he knew how to, instead of taking orders and bribes from gangsters and foreign companies and a rich tiny Cuban elite who lived like kings amid squalor and poverty. Castro's family had connections, he could've looked the other way and been a regular lawyer or played US professional Baseball, but he didn't. I don't condone his bloodier actions among other things, but he was no mercenary worm like Batista.
#14899023
jimjam wrote:Fidel came along and kicked their asses out.


And then declared himself president for life of a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. The fact that he was somewhat better than Batista doesn't absolve him of his crimes. The logic here escapes me. We don't praise rapists for not being murders, we despise them for being rapists.
#14899026
Sivad wrote:And then declared himself president for life of a brutal authoritarian dictatorship. The fact that he was somewhat better than Batista doesn't absolve him of his crimes. The logic here escapes me. We don't praise rapists for not being murders, we despise them for being rapists.

And 'we' also praise mass murders like Kissinger and Obama and award them Nobel Peace Prizes. Depends on your club really.
#14899039
Also, isn't that the exact same logic the Western imperialists use to justify their actions? Aren't you guys just trading American exceptionalism for state socialist exceptionalism? Everybody's got an excuse for why they're perpetrating heinous atrocities but I have yet to hear one that actually excuses their behavior.
#14899117
Sivad wrote:Okay, I'll bite.

First, you haven't addressed the facts I've already presented. What about the political repression? The travel and emigration restriction, the extreme censorship, lack of any meaningful democracy? What can reasonably be inferred about NK society from those facts?


For about the third time, you've presented no facts. The only link you've posted in this thread is a Nation article about some disadvantaged areas in Cuba. That's it.

We can find the same things you're complaining about in any country in the world, this isn't special and doesn't make Cuba or the DPRK "a shithole" just because you think you know everything, even though it's clear you know so little about the very recent history of both of these states, what's imposed on them from the outside/empire, and so, why they are as they are.

Here's a little interview from Eva Bartlett who traveled to North Korea in the last year, talking about her experience there and some of the propaganda about the state.

You posted an Empire Files interview with Tim Chirac so I guess you take him as an authority on NK. He says in that interview "there is no reason to gloss over the nature of the authoritarian state in North Korea because we know that there are many political prisoners." In an interview with Max Kaiser he says "there's no doubt this is very cruel regime the way it treats its own people [...] this is a country that has tens of thousands of people in these prisons." So do you agree with Chirac here?


His name is Tim Shorrock and nobody is claiming either Cuba or the DPRK are utopias or whatever wacky shit that's going through your mind. Yes, shit happens there, the same happens here too, but good shit takes place there too, much better shit than we experience, like how they get homes and healthcare and education and there are none, or if any, very few homeless people walking around. Much better than what we experience in the empire. There are political prisoners here too. There are millions imprisoned in this country, living a modern day slavery.

Watching you bitch about Cuba, with what sounds like a MSM understanding of it, after having posters in this thread who've experienced the island tell you that you're incorrect is some arrogant bullshit. I'm going back to my initial opinion that you're secretly jealous about how Cubans are generally warm and loving. Admit it, it's okay! I feel the same. It's one of a few reasons why I really want to visit the island. :D
#14899171
annatar1914 wrote:Batista was a crook and a tyrant, a parasite who drained his own country's lifeblood.

When he was officially elected in 1940, he was okay. He was actually supported by the communists of Cuba because he was so pro-labor.

But then, after being replaced, and then after living in the USA for a while and hanging out with gangsters, he was "reborn" (via a coup) as a nasty, right-wing dictator in the 50s. So it appears that he was severely corrupted by American anti-communist hysteria and was backed by the same money as many right-wing dictators are - whatever their own personal beliefs.

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He was also Cuba's most multi-cultural president, and extremely attractive. A token pretty-boy (like Obama) so that Cubans wouldn't notice that they had absolutely no power over their society
#14899173
QatzelOk wrote:When he was officially elected in 1940, he was okay. He was actually supported by the communists of Cuba because he was so pro-labor.

But then, after being replaced, and then after living in the USA for a while and hanging out with gangsters, he was "reborn" (via a coup) as a nasty, right-wing dictator in the 50s. So it appears that he was severely corrupted by American anti-communist hysteria and was backed by the same money as many right-wing dictators are - whatever their own personal beliefs.

Image
He was also Cuba's most multi-cultural president, and extremely attractive.


Mussolini sold out too, the British paying him enormous sums to get Italian workers fired up for war with Italy's former allies, Germany and Austria-Hungary. He never looked back after that, a true Italian Condotierre, a supreme egotist who admired the shade of Napoleon Bonaparte (who likewise betrayed the Revolution for personal power and glory).

Batista it is true was originally supported by the Communists, and ironically Castro modeled his speaking style and mannerisms after Mussolini...
#14899174
Sivad wrote:And then declared himself president for life


Except he was not President (or PM) for life.

While I am wary of long term politicians, there is nothing inherently wrong with no term limits. Canada, for example, has none and I would hesitate to call it a “brutal authoritarian dictatorship”. And considering the fact that Cuba has been under attack since 1959 from the US, it would make sense to maintain a continuity of government during the hostilities.

of a brutal authoritarian dictatorship.


I remeber visting a construction site in Havana and having the site superintendent show me the gun locker. Apparently, all the construction sites along the northern beaches have (had?) government issued guns to protect against a US naval attack.

If Cuba was a “brutal authoritarian dictatorship”, why are they handing out guns to the people who would then use them to overthrow the government?

If Cuba was actually a “brutal authoritarian dictatorship”, then the Bay of Pigs attack would have worked. It did not.

The fact that he was somewhat better than Batista doesn't absolve him of his crimes. The logic here escapes me. We don't praise rapists for not being murders, we despise them for being rapists.


Please provide evidence that Castro was as bad as you claim. Thank you.
#14899286
skinster wrote:For about the third time, you've presented no facts. The only link you've posted in this thread is a Nation article about some disadvantaged areas in Cuba. That's it.


I've presented multiple facts, you're ignoring them because you can't dispute them.

We can find the same things you're complaining about in any country in the world


There's nothing comparable in the West to the political repression and brutality occurring in Cuba and NK. The West is doing the same shit to people abroad, but nothing close to that domestically.

what's imposed on them from the outside/empire, and so, why they are as they are.


Right, the evil capitalists forced those liberators of the people to abandon democracy, restrict travel and communication, ruthlessly crackdown on all dissent, throw people in gulags by the tens of thousands, and live like kings off the backs of their subjugated masses.

a little interview from Eva Bartlett


Wow, she's just sided with a brutal despotic regime and betrayed every poor soul suffering under its tyranny. Way to go Eva!

His name is Tim Shorrock and nobody is claiming either Cuba or the DPRK are utopias or whatever wacky shit that's going through your mind.


In my mind they're exactly what Tim Shorrock say they are - cruel authoritarian regimes. What are they in your mind?

There are political prisoners here too.


I wonder what would happen to a North Korean that makes even a mild criticism of dear leader in public? That guy would be black-bagged in a heartbeat and never seen or heard from again. That just doesn't happen here. Here you can make open threats against the government and nothing happens. You can have armed standoffs with whole federal agencies and nothing that serious comes of it. :lol:

There are millions imprisoned in this country, living a modern day slavery.


Yes there are. I guess the difference between you and me is I'm not a naive apologist for any government or state.

having posters in this thread who've experienced the island tell you that you're incorrect is some arrogant bullshit.


I'm arrogant because I take the word of people who lived it and whose families have lived it for generations over the claims of a couple of ideologically motivated tourists? Ok then.
#14899287
Sivad wrote:There's nothing comparable in the West to the political repression and brutality occurring in Cuba and NK. The West is doing the same shit to people abroad, but nothing close to that domestically.


We'll take this point unaltered for the sake of argument; the implication here is that it is somehow a superior arrangement that the West only does such things abroad (where as Cuba and North Korea do no such things abroad)?

I don't buy the reasoning of that, as a starting point.
#14899292
The trouble you guys are having is that you can't defend these regimes because what they're doing is indefensible, so you have to change the subject by attempting to make some moral equivalency with the US. Even if every other society on Earth was much worse than Cuba, Cuba would still be extremely awful. Nothing is going to change that fact.
#14899296
Sivad wrote:The trouble you guys are having is that you can't defend these regimes because what they're doing is indefensible, so you have to change the subject by attempting to make some moral equivalency with the US. Even if every other society on Earth was much worse than Cuba, Cuba would still be extremely awful. Nothing is going to change that fact.

No I merely took your own words as a starting point (setting aside for sake of argument points on which I disagreed with your interpretations, which is called 'giving the benefit of doubt).
#14899319


Say the Israelis gave the Palestinians the highest standard of living of any people on earth. Provided free healthcare, nutrition, education, housing, utilities, transportation, childcare, the works, but they also prohibited them from ever leaving the state, banned all contact with the outside world, forbid them any knowledge of Islam or their cultural heritage, taught them from birth to worship Jews as their liberators and protectors, indoctrinated them to work hard in service to the Jews out of love and gratitude, trained them to sing hymns and anthems to the Jews and to celebrate the Jews with parades and marching bands, and viciously enforced conformity to this glorious system by punishing any independent thought or individuality with long incarcerations in brutal labor camps and public executions.

I'd call that a horrific atrocity but apparently skinster would be quite happy with that arrangement, or at least wouldn't think it's all that bad.
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