Cuba has proven that capitalism and technology are failures - Page 10 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14899459
Sivad wrote:There's nothing comparable in the West to the political repression and brutality occurring in Cuba and NK.

First of all, Cuba IS Western. They even play baseball and wear cowboy hats.

As for the repression and brutality, I have no proof either way regarding the besieged people of North Korea. But for Cuba, I have my own eyes (which have visited the USA many times) as my witness. For brutality, nothing beats school shootings and locking up African-American descendants of slavery. Nothing beats all the genocidal wars that the USA business class uses to enrich itself.

And for repression, tell me how many socialist TV stations, socialist Hollywood studios, and electable socialist political parties exist in the USA. Oh yeah, none. They have been banned by mafia money. All you have is corrupt capitalist enablers to chose from. What freedom. And then, after the election, these people do whatever they want with no public consultation or approval required. What a great place to be a rich criminal the USA is.


The West is doing the same shit to people abroad, but nothing close to that domestically.

The largest percentage of domestic imprisoning (USA), maximum school shootings (USA), the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world (and way worse than Cuba), a shortage of doctors, no food independence, an at-birth debt of two years salary... The USA is doing something really awful to its own people, though its own people often take consolation that at least they're not being as badly tortured by America's elite as foreigners are.

Drowning in shit, you point to the even higher pile of shit your country has sent downstream to "the foreigners."
#14899509
History is a thing, but you'd have a tough time arguing that these states had no choice but totalitarian socialism.

Liberal democracies are perfectly capable of defending themselves from foreign aggression/subversion so the necessity of totalitarianism for defense against external threats is not a valid excuse.

If socialism isn't viable within a liberal democracy because the majority rejects it then the only option is to impose it by force, and while "protecting the revolution" does require totalitarian despotism, the cure(totalitarian socialism) is worse than the disease(capitalism).

So really these regimes have no acceptable justification for the madness they're engaged in, it's not necessary for defense and within the society it does way more harm than good.
#14899562
Sivad wrote:There's nothing comparable in the West to the political repression and brutality occurring in Cuba and NK. The West is doing the same shit to people abroad, but nothing close to that domestically.


Except, Cuba is not repressing people politically, and the west (US and Canada specifically) are repressing their indigenous populations.

Right, the evil capitalists forced those liberators of the people to abandon democracy, restrict travel and communication, ruthlessly crackdown on all dissent, throw people in gulags by the tens of thousands, and live like kings off the backs of their subjugated masses.


Please present evidence for these claims.

Wow, she's just sided with a brutal despotic regime and betrayed every poor soul suffering under its tyranny. Way to go Eva!


As hominem. Ignored.

In my mind they're exactly what Tim Shorrock say they are - cruel authoritarian regimes. What are they in your mind?


Cuba is a socialist country under constant atrack from the US.

I wonder what would happen to a North Korean that makes even a mild criticism of dear leader in public? That guy would be black-bagged in a heartbeat and never seen or heard from again. That just doesn't happen here. Here you can make open threats against the government and nothing happens. You can have armed standoffs with whole federal agencies and nothing that serious comes of it. :lol:


Pine Ridge.

Yes there are. I guess the difference between you and me is I'm not a naive apologist for any government or state.


A naive critic is not much better.

I'm arrogant because I take the word of people who lived it and whose families have lived it for generations over the claims of a couple of ideologically motivated tourists? Ok then.


No, you do not take our word for it even though some of us have lived through US interventions in Latin America during the Cold war.

I also noticed that you have ignored my requests f9r evidence to support your claims.
#14899566
To Sivad, Pants-of-dog wrote:I also noticed that you have ignored my requests f9r evidence to support your claims.

He has no evidence to back up any of his "claims."

I gave him every chance in the world to prove that he was more than just a collage of regurgitated rhetoric, but he has come up empty. I would even have been happy to see his rhetoric improve and allow for more improvisation on his part (another sign of light emanating from the skull). But unfortunately, this hasn't happened so far.

Sivad obviously knows (or read about) some rich Cubans who lost their sugar plantations when the communist government redistributed land to avoid another famine like in the 1920s when sugar prices suddenly dived. The rich of a country who have fled are NEVER happy with the way it is governed because they had such a sweet deal the old way it was governed.

(This was the same with the American royalists who fled the USA after the terrorists took over in 1776. They were never happy, and took out their hatred on our local natives and francophone populations.)

That the oligarchs don't like the current egalitarian system in Cuba is yet another reason to give it a chance. Remember, these oligarchs were part of a system (Batista) that dropped chemicals like Agent Orange on "their own" people. To do this means you don't really care about Cuba or Cubans - just your own wealth.
#14899675
Cuba is objectively unsafe. As proof I cite the OP, which unambiguously states that the failing country, or future AMERICAN state if you're a glass-half-full kind of guy, is lousy with two wheeled death machines. Only a backward shithole governed by mud apes with no regard for human life would allow bicycles to roam the streets and roads freely.

Image

I realize this potograph will make some of our resident chud posters like bicycles, but I am posting it anywya.
#14899685
There will be no regime change in Cuba because the social revolution did not occur. There was instead a Leninist reorganization of capitalist social relations and the ascension of a new ruling class to enforce them. Was anyone quite so gullible as to think that that this would lead to socialism?!? How rich it is to see authoritarian socialists of various stripes hang their heads in holy despair as they try to figure out just where the Cuban Revolution went off the rails. Did anybody really think that this application of Leninist principles was going to produce a different result in Cuba than it had everywhere else? Did anyone really believe that a political party; a party which reproduces within its infrastructure the bourgeois disparities of empowered and powerless, bureaucrat and supplicant, rewarded and punished, rulers and ruled, benefactor and beneficiary; that a party so conceived and constituted could actually create proletarian democracy?

Was anyone quite so witless as to believe that a party whose organizing principle was centralism; a party which disenfranchises the toiling classes, which expunges all organs of worker management and control and utterly divorces the proletariat from public affairs, could at the same time emancipate it?

The Cuban Revolution failed because it was stillborn. It died soon after Battista fled and its “leader,” taking a page from the Bolshevik playbook, immediately began repressing and/or subverting those student and worker organizations which were instrumental in the revolution. Castro created a steeply hierarchical power structure outside which the workers stood in permanent alienation.1 With only minor differences, Castro created a Leninist terror state. Castro’s chief revolutionary rival, Camilo Cienfuegos, dies in a still unexplained plane accident. Other revolutionary leaders are soon arrested and denounced as foreign agents (oh, Lenin would have been so proud). The gulag sprang up in no time.
https://anarchistnews.org/content/anarc ... n%E2%80%9D
#14899691
Sivad wrote:Classic. I don't even have to mount an argument, the inane denial does the work for me. :lol:

Next you should demand evidence for political repression, that would really be helpful. :D


So no evidence to support your claims. Got it.

Anyways, the Bay of Pigs invasion failed for many reasons. But what it boiled down to was that Kennedy did not call for a full scale invasion when the CIA forces were being defeated. And the reason JFK did not call for a full scale invasion is that he knew he would have to suffocate the island in a sea of blood, because the Cuban people themselves supported the revolution.

And they still do.
#14899692
Image
Chapter I

Ignorance is Strength details the perpetual class struggle characteristic of human societies; beginning with the historical observation that societies always have hierarchically divided themselves into social classes and castes: the High (who rule); the Middle (who work for, and yearn to supplant the High), and the Low (whose goal is quotidian survival). Cyclically, the Middle deposed the High, by enlisting the Low. Upon assuming power, however, the Middle (the new High class) recast the Low into their usual servitude. In the event, the classes perpetually repeat the cycle, when the Middle class speaks to the Low class of "justice" and of "human brotherhood" in aid of becoming the High class rulers.



a degenerated workers' state is a socialist state in which direct working class control of production has given way to control by a bureaucratic clique.

A bureaucratic collectivist state owns the means of production, while the surplus or profit is distributed among an elite party bureaucracy (nomenklatura), rather than among the working class. Also, most importantly, it is the bureaucracy—not the workers, or the people in general—which controls the economy and the state. Thus, the system is not truly capitalist, but it is not socialist either.

A new form of class society which exploits workers through new mechanisms. Theorists, such as Yvan Craipeau, who hold this view believe that bureaucratic collectivism does not represent progress beyond capitalism—that is, that it is no closer to being a workers' state than a capitalist state would be, and is considerably less efficient. Some even believe that certain kinds of capitalism, such as social democratic capitalism, are more progressive than a bureaucratic collectivist society.

Oligarchical Collectivism
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#14899695
I think history has shown the utter nullity of these types who by their infantile and utopian Socialism are doomed in the struggle before they even start. So naturally, they are the very ''Socialists'' that the governing Elites of Capitalism world order are all too happy to encourage. No, you get a Bureaucratic and Militarized Socialism, technocratic, managerial, and efficient, that is organized and even meritocratic in it's ranks, with no dreamers but men of action, and you have victory, and of course the Plutocrats know that.
#14899709
annatar1914 wrote:I think history has shown the utter nullity ...


History has [repeatedly]shown that state socialism is just a bad idea that once implemented rapidly deteriorates into a totalitarian nightmare.

No, you get a Bureaucratic and Militarized Socialism, technocratic, managerial, and efficient, that is organized and even meritocratic in it's ranks, with no dreamers but men of action, and you have
red fascism.
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