Changing Alliance? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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User avatar
By Beren
#14916286
One Degree wrote:The EU (not Europeans) have become US opponents under Trump.

Europeans have become US opponents under Trump as well, like they became US opponents under Bush II either. Also, it's not the EU only Trumpists and American conservatives and reactionaries oppose, it's Europeanness in general, and Europeans oppose American conservatism too. They oppose their religiousness and gun cult, for example, but they oppose their socioeconomic and foreign policy sentiments the most. However, it was not Europe that broke up with America and Britain, it was the opposite.
User avatar
By Rugoz
#14916293
Maybe Trump is a Russian puppet after all :lol:

One Degree wrote:This is actually what Trump has proposed. Let us trade fairly with one another.


Western Europe is generally considered to be more open to trade than the US (in terms of trade barriers). Trump constantly whining about unfair trade doesn't make it true.

One Degree wrote:All countries should be free to base their trade on whatever they want.


Is that why Trump plans to sanction European companies for trading with Iran. :lol:
User avatar
By Beren
#14916308
Rugoz wrote:Maybe Trump is a Russian puppet after all :lol:

Russian puppet, Chinese puppet, Israeli puppet, Saudi puppet...? Definitely not European puppet! :lol:
#14916312
Atlantis wrote::lol: @The Sabbaticus, you fell for that German-army-in-a-state-of-disrepair narrative? Didn't they teach you anything at school? These sorts of news items are deliberately placed by the military-industrial lobby to boost defence spending. Combined, Europe spends more than enough on defence. We just have to become independent of Nato, pool resources and direct our resources to defend European instead of American interests. US defence spending goes towards creating insecurity in the ME and Europe. We need our defence spending to create security.


Spending isn't the issue, getting your money's worth is the problem. Those Eurofighters are not going to get combat ready just by emptying buckets of Euro coins into the cockpit. Those euros need to actually go into the right hands in order to get jets capable of defending German airspace.
By Atlantis
#14916375
The Sabbaticus wrote:Spending isn't the issue, getting your money's worth is the problem. Those Eurofighters are not going to get combat ready just by emptying buckets of Euro coins into the cockpit. Those euros need to actually go into the right hands in order to get jets capable of defending German airspace.


Spending (in particular R&D spending) does have a lot to do with it. Europe has subsidized American defence R&D by procuring much of its hardware in the US. By spending that money in Europe we will easily be able to compete with the US in most fields. Despite the US's gigantic defence and space budgets and huge military exports, Europe has succeeded in developing wide-bodied Airbus airplanes and heavy-lift Ariane launch vehicles which have conquered half of the world's commercial market. Even in satellites, we are still state of the art even though we only build 2 satellites when the US builds 20 on national budgets.

The US is only where it is because Europe has had to subsidize the empire for over half a century and suffered a brain-drain for even longer. The flow of money and brains is about to be reversed because nobody wants to be associated with Trump's dystopia.

One Degree wrote:Trump just announced agreement with China to reduce trade deficit. Does this pressure Europe? Trump seems to be getting his way lately.


Don't be silly. All Trump wants is a PR stunt for the next election. The Chinese are more than willing to make him look good in the press as long as he lets them win in the end. They are already loosening the reins on Kim by reopening covert supply routes to NK. That's why Kim has taken a more belligerent tone towards the US. Diplomacy is a game with a thousand variables. There is only one certainty in this game: a showman like Donald cannot but loose, despite all the firepower of the empire.

Anyways, improved access for US companies to the Chinese market will automatically also apply to European companies under WTO rules. Thus, it is most welcome.

Image

A marriage made in Sochy. All lovey-dovey :excited:
Last edited by Atlantis on 20 May 2018 11:01, edited 1 time in total.
By Atlantis
#14916376
European Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström:

'We Won't Allow Ourselves to Be Blackmailed'


In an interview with DER SPIEGEL, European Trade Commissioner Cecilia Malmström, 50, says the EU won't negotiate "until Trump stops pointing the gun at our chest." But, she adds, Europe would much prefer compromise over aggression.

[...]

DER SPIEGEL: Does a schoolyard bully like Trump understand such tough talk better than suggestions for compromise?

Malmström: That may be true, but I always prefer compromise. That is in our DNA as Europeans. The EU is a community based on the rule of law and as such, treaties and the international order are correspondingly important to us. These rules almost always stem from the joint commitment of Europeans and Americans. That is why the EU is also defending the Iran agreement so vehemently. It is an agreement under the auspices of the United Nations, not just some deal, as it is often derogatorily referred to.

DER SPIEGEL: How badly damaged is the international system already?

Malmström: The international order is weakening because the USA is withdrawing more and more, but it is not collapsing. There is momentum in the other direction as well. Just look at how many countries the EU is currently concluding trade agreements with: The agreement with Japan is particularly important for Germany; our negotiations with Mexico just concluded; and discussions with the Mercosur countries are also making good progress. So there is also good news.

[...]

DER SPIEGEL: Recently, the Trump administration was able to welcome a minor victory. The WTO ruled that EU aid to Airbus was inadmissible. Is it possible that the EU is not behaving much better than Trump on trade issues?

Malmström: The WTO ruled that some elements of our aid to Airbus violate WTO rules, but the vast majority do not. Plus, there will likely be another ruling this year when the arbitration court decides on American aid for Boeing. I'm looking forward to it.

[...]

DER SPIEGEL: How do you explain the fact that the U.S. treats its partners like adversaries in some areas yet wants to join forces with them in others -- in opposition to China, for example.

Malmström: Frankly, I have no explanation for it. It is indeed a bit inconsistent.


"A bit inconsistent" Cecilia? Are you sure The Donald appreciates polite understatement?


As tensions with Trump deepen, Europe wonders if America is lost for good

BERLIN — Since Jan. 20, 2017, European leaders have managed U.S. relations with one eye on the clock, anxiously counting down the hours until President Trump’s term is up and hoping the core of the Western alliance isn’t too badly damaged in the meantime.

But as Trump’s aggressive rhetoric toward America’s closest allies has evolved into hostile action this spring, a new fear has swept European capitals.

Trump may not be an aberration that can be waited out, with his successor likely to push reset after four or eight years of fraught ties. Instead, the blend of unilateralism, nationalism and protectionism Trump embodies may be the new American normal.

“It is dawning on a number of European players that Trump may not be an outlier,” said Josef Janning, head of the Berlin office of the European Council on Foreign Relations. “More and more people are seeing it as a larger change in the United States.”

[...]

With friends like that, who needs enemies?” Tusk told reporters as he readied a summit of E.U. leaders largely focused on Trump-ignited brushfires. The faltering Iran nuclear agreement, the bloodshed in the Gaza Strip and the specter of a transatlantic trade war were all on the agenda.

Tusk denounced “the capricious assertiveness of the American administration,” using terms that just 16 months ago would more typically have been applied to international rogue nations such as North Korea and Russia.

[...]

Thomas Kleine-Brockhoff, who oversees the German Marshall Fund’s office in Berlin, said that up until recently, it was popular for defenders of close American ties to console themselves with the mantra “watch what they do, not what they say.”

But that was before Trump canceled U.S. participation in the Iran deal, threatened European businesses with sanctions and launched steel and aluminium tariffs that could hit Europe as soon as next month.

“Now the actions are piling up,” he said. “You keep thinking it doesn’t get any worse. But boy, we’re being educated.”

Kleine-Brockhoff, a former presidential adviser, still counts himself among the defenders of the transatlantic bond. But he said he — and Europe — will have to seriously reevaluate if Trump wins reelection.

Others in Europe aren’t waiting that long.

“The mood in the country is that we can’t let the U.S. run the world, especially if it’s run by someone like Trump,” said François Heisbourg, a former French presidential adviser on national security and defense. “When an ally treats its allies like enemies, you have a problem.

Heisbourg said the current strain on the transatlantic relationship is greater than in previous periods of tension.

[...]

“There are trends underway that began before Trump and will continue after Trump,” said Tomas Valasek, the head of the Carnegie Europe think tank and a former Slovak ambassador to NATO. Trump “believes this is a dog-eat-dog kind of world in which one country’s gain is another’s loss. And that applies to the allies as much to the Chinas and Russias of the world.”

[...]

“We love the United States,” she said. “But when the United States takes a decision that is contrary to our interests, then we should be able to do our own thing and pursue our own policies. The relationship of dependence has to change.”

[...]

We can almost be thankful to Trump,” Lau said. “He’s made it clear to Europe that we need to wake up.
User avatar
By Albert
#14916384
EU is not Europe, it is an entity that is destroying Europe. I thought it would be Brexit that will wake up EU politicians to this reality. Instead they are persistently continuing on self-destructive path. What Trump represents is rising up in Europe as well.

Europe, USA and the world will look much different in couple of decades, we are in changing times.
User avatar
By Beren
#14916398
Atlantis wrote:"A bit inconsistent" Cecilia? Are you sure The Donald appreciates polite understatement?

No, the Donald appreciates straight talk like you won't rape us and allies don't grab each other by the pussy or the balls.
By Atlantis
#14916401
Beren wrote:No, the Donald appreciates straight talk like you won't rape us and allies don't grab each other by the pussy or the balls.


That may be part of the misunderstanding. He probably believes that with all his manliness and wild hairdo, people actually like to be grabbed by the pussy/balls.

Albert wrote:EU is not Europe, it is an entity that is destroying Europe.


And why exactly do you think that Europeans are so stupid that they would fall for this silly ploy of the Yankee Imperialists to destroy Europe by your strategy of divide and rule? If even big industrial nations like Japan buckle under the US dictate, how do you think that small countries like Denmark, Lithuania or Croatia would withstand US domination? Your attempts at destroying the EU proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the EU is the only political body worldwide that's capable of resisting the Yankee Imperialists.

And yes, there is nothing in the World that represents Europe more than the EU. Thus for all intends and purposes the EU = Europe. The rest can go and get fucked by the orange ape.

Europe, USA and the world will look much different in couple of decades, we are in changing times.


Exactly! 8 years with the orange ape at its stern, and the Yankee Empire will never be the same again. :lol:
#14916403
Atlantis wrote:Exactly! 8 years with the orange ape at its stern, and the Yankee Empire will never be the same again. :lol:


The friendship between Germany and Russia will be a luxury relationship and glorious.

Germans will go on holiday to Crimea and Moscow. Russians will study in Berlin and everyone will drink beer in Munich beer halls.

As a citizen of an Anglosphere nation I am jealous.
User avatar
By Beren
#14916405
Atlantis wrote:That may be part of the misunderstanding. He probably believes that with all his manliness and wild hairdo, people actually like to be grabbed by the pussy/balls.

In Trumpland they may believe grabbing is a sort of gentle touch or courtesy, or being abusive is just absolutely normal and natural to them, bragging about it ditto.
By Atlantis
#14916407
Political Interest wrote:The friendship between Germany and Russia will be a luxury relationship and glorious.

Germans will go on holiday to Crimea and Moscow. Russians will study in Berlin and everyone will drink beer in Munich beer halls.

As a citizen of an Anglosphere nation I am jealous.


It's not too late PI. You can bring down the May government over the Brexit bill and get Corbyn elected. That will put the UK at the vanguard of the fight against imperialism. We'll all be able to fill up on beer in Munich and caviar in Moscow (with Crimean sparkling wine). :D

Beren wrote:In Trumpland they may believe grabbing is a sort of gentle touch or courtesy, or being abusive is just absolutely normal and natural to them, bragging about it ditto.


That much is for sure. The question is, does it work the other way around too? Will the rednecks enjoy it when we grab them by the balls to give them a good and hearty squeeze to drive the tears out by their ears?
User avatar
By Beren
#14916408
Atlantis wrote:You can bring down the May government over the Brexit bill and get Corbyn elected.

Or they can bring down the May government over the Brexit bill, get BoJo elected, and go Australian! :excited:

Atlantis wrote:Will the rednecks enjoy it...

They'll enjoy anything if Trump tunes up the drums well enough.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916409
It is amusing observing Europeans revealing their sense of superiority even as they repeatedly show their lack of backbone to stand up to anyone. Pay protection money to every country that raises their voice and pretend it makes them superior. You even object to paying for your own defense.
I suppose when you are so weak you don’t even believe you have the right to say anything you want publically, you have to compensate for your cowardice with a false sense of superiority.
Mean old Trump hurting your feelings with words must be hard to take for such ‘superior’ people.
You even believe you can align with Russia and/or China against Trump. Their world view is aligned with Trump, not you. Do you honestly believe either of them are interested in your ‘liberal globalism’? Lol.
User avatar
By Beren
#14916411
Don't be so sour, @One Degree! You have the anti-globalist and anti-European government you wished for, it's making Titanic great again! So enjoy the last party with Captain Trump, it's gonna be a wild ride! :rockon:
User avatar
By noemon
#14916413
One Degree wrote:It is amusing observing Europeans revealing their sense of superiority even as they repeatedly show their lack of backbone to stand up to anyone. Pay protection money to every country that raises their voice and pretend it makes them superior. You even object to paying for your own defense.
I suppose when you are so weak you don’t even believe you have the right to say anything you want publically, you have to compensate for your cowardice with a false sense of superiority.
Mean old Trump hurting your feelings with words must be hard to take for such ‘superior’ people.
You even believe you can align with Russia and/or China against Trump. Their world view is aligned with Trump, not you. Do you honestly believe either of them are interested in your ‘liberal globalism’? Lol.


It is quite funny how you hide your cowardice and slavish servitude to Israeli interests as your supposed opposition to "liberal globalism". You and Trump are not revolutionaries, just servants. Trump threatens Europeans at the orders of his Israeli masters and we are all supposed to cower instead of giggle at your kitsch slavishness. Their world view on the matter of Iran is aligned with Europe, not with you or Trump just for your information. You have been reduced from leaders of the free world to Israeli poodles, Trump is to Netanyahu what Blair was to Bush. I understand your feelings are somewhat confused, there is bewilderment on the obviousness of it all.
User avatar
By One Degree
#14916416
Yes, Israel with a population the same as New York City is controlling the US. lol.
By Atlantis
#14916417
One Degree wrote:It is amusing observing Europeans revealing their sense of superiority even as they repeatedly show their lack of backbone to stand up to anyone. Pay protection money to every country that raises their voice and pretend it makes them superior.


:lol: I'm starting to enjoy this. You are priceless, One Degree. Do you really feel so inferior? I grant, you have good reason to feel inferior. The dilemma of Yankee White Supremacists is that they see their origin in white Europe. What a terrible shock it must be that white Europe doesn't want them. With nowhere else to go, all you can do is building walls, first to fend of your Latin neighbors in the South and then to fend of the colored people at home. You can go and rot in your walled-in enclaves. The World will be a better place without you.

You have already sank 5 trillions USD in the Iraqi desert sands just for the Iranians and Russians to come out on top. Is that your fabled strength? You have become the laughing stock of the world since you can't even pacify an impoverished and war-torn little shit-hole like Afghanistan with all your military might.

In 3,000 years of Chines history, they have consistently found that it is better to pay off the barbarians in the North rather than to fight them. Why should we not pay you as mercenaries, since you can't produce anything useful to make a living. Civilized folks read poetry and don't get their hands dirty. The trouble is that the Yankee mercenaries have had some short-circuits and don't perform as expected. The Russians are doing a much better job (just look at Syria) for a fraction of the cost. That's the free market, One Degree! Shopping around for the best protection we can get for our money. There is no place for imperialist parasites who live on the blood of others.

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