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User avatar
By Zamuel
#14916991
One Degree wrote:https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Divisions+of+the+Executive+Branch

A poor choice of reference material I'm afraid since your article fails to mention the DOJ even once.

However, I will accede that DOJ is an agency of the executive branch. The FBI is a division of the DOJ. There is an organized chain of command which Trump wishes to ignore. He want's to issue orders to the FBI directly and, in some peoples opinions is attempting to dictate their conclusions by fiat.

The DOJ has already started an investigation of FBI conduct (under the Inspector General's division) which Trump wants to bypass. He wants to make the FBI into his personal goon squad. This ain't gonna happen.

In essence Trump wants to appoint himself Attorney General and Director of the FBI … Without Senate confirmation or legislative oversite.

Zam :borg:
#14916992
Zamuel wrote:A poor choice of reference material I'm afraid since your article fails to mention the DOJ even once.

However, I will accede that DOJ is an agency of the executive branch. The FBI is a division of the DOJ. There is an organized chain of command which Trump wishes to ignore. He want's to issue orders to the FBI directly and, in some peoples opinions is attempting to dictate their conclusions by fiat.

The DOJ has already started an investigation of FBI conduct (under the Inspector General's division) which Trump wants to bypass. Essentially he wants to make the FBI into his personal goon squad. This ain't gonna happen.

Zam :borg:


You did not read far enough. The DOJ was listed. All of the executive branch departments are under the command of the president. The power of the Executive Branch has gradually increased throughout our country’s history. We have allowed this to happen. To try to pretend it is now not valid under Trump is to attempt to deny our past stupidity as something we can just ignore.
The only valid argument is to admit the Executive has too much power and try to change it. The problem for liberals is that their power is based upon a strong Executive. They find themselves in a position of fighting what they helped create. A strong Executive was great under Obama, right? Short sightedness often bites you in the ass.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14916996
One Degree wrote:You did not read far enough. The DOJ was listed.

Ooought, you are right. the depts. are enumerated. I read the whole thing, I must have been skimming.

Zam 8)
User avatar
By jimjam
#14917000
blackjack21 wrote:Well, I understand that someone with as much antipathy for Trump as you would be overcome with histrionics at everything Trump does,


Well, it takes one to know one. I am simply one side of the coin and you, who are able to conjure up justification for every one of The Great Man's activities, the other. We together provide balance to the world. Such are the products democracy and free speech.

And on another note:

President Trump sank to a new low on Sunday, tweeting, “I hereby demand (what a fucking ass hole), and will do so officially tomorrow, that the Department of Justice look into whether or not the FBI/DOJ infiltrated or surveilled the Trump Campaign for Political Purposes — and if any such demands or requests were made by people within the Obama Administration!”

Putting aside the cartoonish language (“I hereby demand”? Really?), consider the seriousness of the threat posed by a president ordering federal law enforcement officials to investigate the people who are investigating him.

One doesn’t have to agree with the particulars of every investigation to see the fundamental difference here: The members of our law enforcement and intelligence communities are trying to protect the country. Donald Trump and his supporters are simply trying to protect Donald Trump.
Last edited by jimjam on 23 May 2018 04:07, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Hong Wu
#14917109
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/05 ... -case.html

Sounds like they're finally going after things like this. They've been sitting on a lot of things for awhile, Huma's laptop, Awan's laptop and the IT scandal and probably some Clinton Foundation stuff. It seems possible that they're going to start moving on all of these things at once to try and overwhelm the Democrat's leadership structure? Is "the storm" finally here? :eek:
#14917113
Hong Wu wrote: Is "the storm" finally here?


It'll end up being a tempest in a teapot I assure you.

Unfortunately.
#14917142
Senate committee agrees with intelligence community assessment of election meddling, breaking with GOP House investigation

(CNN)The Senate Intelligence Committee's leaders said Wednesday they believed that the intelligence community's 2017 assessment of election meddling was correct, breaking with Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee who questioned the conclusion that the Russians were trying to help President Donald Trump get elected.

"There is no doubt that Russia undertook an unprecedented effort to interfere with our 2016 election," Senate Intelligence Chairman Richard Burr, a North Carolina Republican, said in a statement. "Committee staff have spent 14 months reviewing the sources, tradecraft, and analytic work, and we see no reason to dispute the conclusions."

The top Democrat on the committee, Sen. Mark Warner of Virginia, said that "after a thorough review, our staff concluded that the ICA conclusions were accurate and on point. The Russian effort was extensive, sophisticated and ordered by President Putin himself for the purpose of helping Donald Trump and hurting Hilary Clinton."

http://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/politics/senate-committee-agrees-intelligence-community-election-meddling/index.html
User avatar
By jimjam
#14917222
Senate committee agrees with intelligence community assessment of election meddling, breaking with GOP House investigation.............

This is strictly a no brainer. Nothing to debate. Putin hates Hillary. They have attacked each other for years. Over the years she has said that Mr Putin "doesn't have a soul", she called him a "tough guy with a thin skin", and she compared his annexation of Crimea in 2014 to the actions of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s.

On the other hand Putin pretty much has Donald in his pocket. Donald's reps were lobbying for a Moscow Trump Tower while election campaigning was in progress. The Trump family business has been using Russian money for years since US banks cut them off after a few bankruptcies. Here are Junior's own words: "In terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets," Trump Jr. said during a conference in New York in 2008. Then ....... who knows what Putin has on Donald that he keeps in his safe deposit box :lol: .
User avatar
By Hong Wu
#14917228
It's spin, since concluding that Russia did some stuff is not the same thing as finding collusion or an impact on the election, which was their goal. So basically they're saying that they found nothing on Trump and are spinning it to make it sound serious.
#14917231
Zamuel wrote:Please show us where it says that anywhere besides Donald Trumps tweets. Polly want a cracker?

Article II, Sentence 1 wrote:The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

Pretty simple. All executive power stems from the President of the United States.

Zamuel wrote:There is an organized chain of command which Trump wishes to ignore. He want's to issue orders to the FBI directly and, in some peoples opinions is attempting to dictate their conclusions by fiat.

The president is at the top of the chain of command. He can issue orders to a private if he wishes.

Zamuel wrote:The DOJ has already started an investigation of FBI conduct (under the Inspector General's division) which Trump wants to bypass.

He wants the DoJ regular officers to take action--basically to uphold their oath of office, which many are not doing.

Zamuel wrote:He wants to make the FBI into his personal goon squad.

This is just an expression of your turbulent emotional state. The president wants to know if the FBI used public resources for private political purposes. That's a very valid question.

Zamuel wrote:In essence Trump wants to appoint himself Attorney General and Director of the FBI … Without Senate confirmation or legislative oversite.

Nobody wants to be a subordinate to themselves. These departments and bureaus are not independent of the executive authority of the president; nor are they exempt from Congressional oversight.

One Degree wrote:To try to pretend it is now not valid under Trump is to attempt to deny our past stupidity as something we can just ignore.
The only valid argument is to admit the Executive has too much power and try to change it. The problem for liberals is that their power is based upon a strong Executive. They find themselves in a position of fighting what they helped create. A strong Executive was great under Obama, right? Short sightedness often bites you in the ass.

Sharyl Attkisson had some interesting comments recently. Recall that the Obama administration embedded their own "LogMeIn" program onto her laptop and spied on her. She reported seeing her laptop turn itself on and start opening files by itself--of course, it was the Obama administration doing this. At any rate, she had a trenchant comment that the effort to remove Trump from office--drain the swamp being his campaign punchline--is driving the deep state to hide from view everything they did, not just during the Obama years but more or less for the last 20-30 years. Basically, Obama's "bitter clinger" remark, Mitt Romney's "47%" remark, and Hillary's "deplorable" remark, along with John McCain's "whacko birds" and "crazies" remark has come back to bite the establishment in the ass, and quite hard too.

jimjam wrote:I am simply one side of the coin and you, who are able to conjure up justification for every one of The Great Man's activities, the other.

Well, I'm the one on this bb who identified Trump early on and indicated he would be a major factor, and why he would be a major factor. Since that time, Brexit occurred and Trump won the White House. The establishment is under seige now. I have said before, the people in Washington DC are the most hated people in the world. It's not like they don't deserve it.

jimjam wrote:President Trump sank to a new low on Sunday, tweeting, “I hereby demand (what a fucking ass hole), and will do so officially tomorrow, that the Department of Justice look into whether or not the FBI/DOJ infiltrated or surveilled the Trump Campaign for Political Purposes — and if any such demands or requests were made by people within the Obama Administration!”

Directionality and prepositional phrases really depend upon your point of view. Trump is using legal language, not cartoonish language. Basically, the FBI had informants in the Trump campaign before they were surveilling Carter Page, before Papadopolous was on the radar, etc. They didn't have probable cause to be investigating his campaign. It was clearly political. However, since Trump was unpredictable, they couldn't terminate his candidacy the way they could with Bernie Sanders--to whom they more or less did the same thing.

jimjam wrote:Putting aside the cartoonish language (“I hereby demand”? Really?), consider the seriousness of the threat posed by a president ordering federal law enforcement officials to investigate the people who are investigating him.

He's the executive officer. His agents don't just get to use the power delegated by the principal to attack the principal. That power is reserved to Congress in the form of impeachment.

jimjam wrote:One doesn’t have to agree with the particulars of every investigation to see the fundamental difference here: The members of our law enforcement and intelligence communities are trying to protect the country.

From electing someone with whom they disagree. Working with an opposing political campaign and using its cooked up intelligence product to profer to courts to sustain the use of state investigative powers is little beyond the pale.

jimjam wrote:Donald Trump and his supporters are simply trying to protect Donald Trump.

I don't give a fuck about Donald Trump. I do want to see the establishment in Washington DC take it up the arse. Trump is helping that process along, and I cheer him on at every opportunity. I don't particularly share his vision for health care or social security, for example. Of all the candidates in 2016, I preferred Lyin Ted Cruz. However, I think we got the right person in charge, because Ted Cruz works with the establishment too. Trump is sticking it up their asses, and I quite like that. The establishment has been playing this game since Nixon, and nobody has ever turned it around on them. Reagan didn't Bush didn't, Clinton didn't, Bush II didn't--Obama never had to, as nobody would touch him in order to create this image of the "magic negro" archetype who never did anything wrong. Yet, Obama proved to be a pretty dirty player in the scheme of things.

Hong Wu wrote:Sounds like they're finally going after things like this. They've been sitting on a lot of things for awhile, Huma's laptop, Awan's laptop and the IT scandal and probably some Clinton Foundation stuff. It seems possible that they're going to start moving on all of these things at once to try and overwhelm the Democrat's leadership structure? Is "the storm" finally here? :eek:

One certainly hopes so. Hopefully, they will also be able to jail the establishment Republicans too like John McCain (before he finally croaks) and Thad Cochran. Jeff Sessions is proving to be kind of a spineless weasel too.

jimjam wrote:This is strictly a no brainer. Nothing to debate. Putin hates Hillary. They have attacked each other for years. Over the years she has said that Mr Putin "doesn't have a soul", she called him a "tough guy with a thin skin", and she compared his annexation of Crimea in 2014 to the actions of Adolf Hitler in the 1930s.

Nobody in the establishment nor the establishment fan club understood the significance of Benghazi. Obama and Hillary's actions were an eminence front that was ripped down. People misunderstood Benghazi as if it were some sort of criminal investigation. What it showed--along with Obama's red line in the sand--was that the emperor had no clothes.

I remember at the time wondering why they--America's enemies--didn't attack us at that point. We had horribly weak leadership. Yet, they did take what I would consider "baby steps." However, Putin's Crimea gambit was a stroke of genius. Catherine the Great lost millions trying to take Crimea. The tory British still wax on about Florence Nightingale and the The Charge of the Light Brigade. Yet, Putin took Crimea without firing a shot. Then, he did what Hitler didn't do. He more or less stayed put. I've always wondered what things would have been like had someone in the image of Metternich had been in charge instead of Hitler. Putin has played his hand masterfully. Give credit where credit is due.

jimjam wrote:On the other hand Putin pretty much has Donald in his pocket.

I wonder what he's doing in there. Maybe looking for the source of Clinton's $500k payouts and the millions poured into the Clinton Foundation.

jimjam wrote:Donald's reps were lobbying for a Moscow Trump Tower while election campaigning was in progress.

Which is not illegal.

jimjam wrote:The Trump family business has been using Russian money for years since US banks cut them off after a few bankruptcies.

Trump is a-okay with the Jews now, because of recognizing Jerusalem as the capitol of Israel.

jimjam wrote:Here are Junior's own words: "In terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets," Trump Jr. said during a conference in New York in 2008.

Actually, Trump just owns the name on most of those properties. It's a licensing agreement. It makes Trump look like he's wealthier than he is.

jimjam wrote:Then ....... who knows what Putin has on Donald that he keeps in his safe deposit box :lol: .

That he likes to pee on beds slept in by Barack Obama? Perhaps he's a bed wetter now. Who knows. Who cares?
#14917234
Jimjam

I wonder if you caught James Clapper, former director of National Intelligence (DNI) plugging his new book, "Facts and Fears"? As DNI, he/they hadn't advanced a cause/effect effect on Russian activities, but noted the Russians had acted. Later, after retirement, more became clear, and he said it was patently obvious

Hung wu.

No. That's not what they are saying. They are saying that the Russians did intend to impact the election and did influence the election. Nice try, though.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14917244
blackjack21 wrote:Pretty simple. All executive power stems from the President of the United States. The president is at the top of the chain of command. He can issue orders to a private if he wishes.

No, he can't. Patton commanded an army corp. Do you recall what happened when he decided to personally discipline a private ? What happened when Nixon refused to yield his tapes? What happened when Trump "suggested" that the FBI director "go easy" on Mr. Flynn ?

Trump can provoke a constitutional crisis … But he can't ORDER federal law enforcement to obstruct justice. Our government functions according to "rules and procedures" not personal whims and private grudges. Donald finds this all very frustrating and he throws tantrums, but when the dust settles he's right back where he started. And he knows better than to force a decision into the supreme court where he will lose.

He wants the DoJ regular officers to take action--basically to uphold their oath of office, which many are not doing

Then he needs a new attorney general, that's his recourse. But of course he can't do that, he isn't allowed to by "His" bosses.

Trump is just making noise, as usual.

Zam :roll:
#14917249
Zamuel wrote:No, he can't.

Yes. He can.

Zamuel wrote:Patton commanded an army corp.

Right.

Zamuel wrote:Do you recall what happened when he decided to personally discipline a private ?

He got chastised, because Eisenhower was sucking up to the press. Eisenhower was his commander. Trump doesn't have a superior.

Zamuel wrote:What happened when Nixon refused to yield his tapes?

The court ruled against him. That's meaningless. That does not mean that the president isn't the commander in chief.

Zamuel wrote:What happened when Trump "suggested" that the FBI director "go easy" on Mr. Flynn ?

Nothing. Comey later got fired. Flynn, though the DoJ elected not to prosecute him, faced prosecution by Mueller and is now in proceedings to determine whether Mueller withheld exculpatory evidence.

Zamuel wrote:Trump can provoke a constitutional crisis …

So? Maybe that's what we need.

Zamuel wrote:But he can't ORDER federal law enforcement to obstruct justice.

He can pardon anyone he wants. He doesn't have to order anyone to obstruct justice. The president is the chief law enforcement officer. He cannot obstruct justice.

Zamuel wrote:Our government functions according to "rules and procedures" not personal whims and private grudges.

As directed by executive authority... Donald Trump is the head of the executive branch.

Zamuel wrote:Donald finds this all very frustrating and he throws tantrums, but when the dust settles he's right back where he started.

Donald Trump has a higher approval rating today than when he was elected. Mueller efforts are backfiring badly.

Zamuel wrote:And he knows better than to force a decision into the supreme court where he will lose.

He's doing just fine at SCOTUS, and as the frail elderly folks like RBG and Kennedy die off, he will be naming the next few justices.

Zamuel wrote:Then he needs a new attorney general, that's his recourse.

I think that's coming after the midterms. We shall see.

Zamuel wrote:Trump is just making noise, as usual.

Does it sound like a "crossfire hurricane"?
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14917266
blackjack21 wrote:Yes. He can.

Then … Why doesn't he … ? Ah, there's the nub isn't it. Why doesn't he wave his presidential magic wand and make everything the way he wants it? ...Because he cannot.

Why doesn't he order the mint to print him up 15billion $$$ and build his wall? Why are there still Muslims entering this country? Why can't he have his own personal harem of porn stars? If you prefer to live in his fantasies, well, that's sad.

Trump doesn't have a superior.

Trump has two superiors, the Judicial system that can stop anything he does, and the Legislature that can remove him anytime they want to.

He can pardon anyone he wants.

Again, no he can't … let's see him pardon Cohen …

Zam
User avatar
By Citizen J
#14917270
Police officers CAN obstruct justice. As the chief law enforcement officer, Trump CAN obstruct justice. And Obstruction of justice is illegal even when done by the chief law enforcement officer. Ours is a nation of laws, not of dictators who can do whatever they want. Though it seems we've had more than a few presidents who wanted to test those limits.
Even our president cannot legally obstruct justice. And he may not be able to pardon himself. No court has ruled on that yet, so we really don't know yet.
User avatar
By jimjam
#14917345
Another of The King's Men succumbs.

A significant business partner of Michael D. Cohen, President Trump’s personal lawyer, has agreed to cooperate with the government as a potential witness, a development that could be used as leverage to pressure Mr. Cohen to work with the special counsel examining Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

On another note I suspect that Mueller's final report will not be issued until after the terms of members of the current House of Representatives ends due to the possibility that control of the House flips. Any report issued to a Republican controlled House will, undoubtedly, be relegated to the trash heap, regardless of it's findings, along with the recently ended farcical "investigation" of the matter by the House.
#14917402
Zamuel wrote:Then … Why doesn't he … ?

He's got Mattis doing that for him.

Zamuel wrote:Why doesn't he wave his presidential magic wand and make everything the way he wants it?

I said all executive power stems from the president. I didn't say he was a magician. I think most people understand that, while others need additional explanation.

Zamuel wrote:Why doesn't he order the mint to print him up 15billion $$$ and build his wall?

Because the Constitution gives that power to Congress under Article I...

Zamuel wrote:Why are there still Muslims entering this country?

Trump wants some Muslims in the country, and he doesn't want others--like terrorists.

Zamuel wrote:Why can't he have his own personal harem of porn stars?

Who's to say he doesn't have one? It's not illegal as far as I know. However, he hasn't seen fit to form a public harem for himself. Although, he does own the Miss America pageant.

Zamuel wrote:Trump has two superiors, the Judicial system that can stop anything he does, and the Legislature that can remove him anytime they want to.

They are not superiors. They are co-equal branches of government.

Zamuel wrote:Again, no he can't … let's see him pardon Cohen …

For what? He hasn't been charged with anything.

jimjam wrote:On another note I suspect that Mueller's final report will not be issued until after the terms of members of the current House of Representatives ends due to the possibility that control of the House flips.

Well, the Republicans are up six points in the generic Congressional ballot, which generally means nothing--except the poll usually favors the Democrats. When the Democrats are up by 5 points, they don't lose (or gain) seats. With the Republicans up by 6-7, they will probably gain seats. I think it is awesome that they kept Pelosi on. Trump baits her easily, like calling the mass murdering, drug dealing gang MS-13 "animals" only to have the Democrats object with Pelosi chiming in that everyone--even murdering MS-13 members--have a spark of divinity. I'm loving the Democratic leadership right now.
User avatar
By Zamuel
#14917437
blackjack21 wrote:Trump wants some Muslims in the country, and he doesn't want others--like terrorists.

He just wants the Muslims that work at his resorts you mean ...

They are not superiors. They are co-equal branches of government.

They tell him what he can and cannot do … and they have the power to "Fire" him. That ain't "co-equal bubba.

Zam :lol:
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