[SpecialOlympian]

When you post stupid thoughts I'm going to point it out Conscript. I'm sorry you began a post that wasn't worth reading with, "I reject the factual basis of the entire thread." You're welcome for the constructive criticism. I encourage you to learn to take criticism better as it will make your posts more readable and memorable.

[anarchist23]

This is getting into more general immigration policy,

Yes. This thread concerns forced separation of children from their parents.
The Trump supporters will try to broaden the discussion into general immigration and thus attempt to derail the thread.

[Conscript]

When you post stupid thoughts I'm going to point it out Conscript. I'm sorry you began a post that wasn't worth reading with, "I reject the factual basis of the entire thread." You're welcome for the constructive criticism. I encourage you to learn to take criticism better as it will make your posts more readable and memorable.

Calling me stupid is not an argument, saying my post isn't worth reading is not justification for failing to address the points. You have a right to not respond, but you do not have the right to denigrate your opponent to make it seem like the problem isn't you. It's your decision to refuse debate. You obviously do not belong on a political discussion forum.

Maybe it's time to retire.

[SpecialOlympian]

I said the thoughts you were sharing were stupid. How incredibly rude of you to not read, or possibly even purposely misrepresent, my posts.

[Conscript]

Reposting for others to reply to:

Nobody is being purposely separated, they're being purposely prosecuted to get tough on rising illegal immigration numbers, the explosive growth of asylum claims causing backlog and exposure of poor anti-fraud measures, and so on which cause a 'catch and release' phenomenon that translates to skyrocketing in absentia rates.

Things which the center-left is not and has no decipherable interest in resolving, their outrage is disingenuous and simply part of agitating their voter base ahead of the midterms. They have only been exploiting globalization's greater integration and visibility, while playing down the social contradictions, imbalances, and issues that arise as a result by filing these concerns as under the 'wrong side of history' or otherwise inhibiting a sense of ideological momentum born in the 60s and unleashed with the rapid material change of the new millenium.

The problem is that, in the process, later rulings on the Flores law to come within the closing days of the Obama presidency entail that accompanied children must be released from detainment after 20 days, and an overwhelmed system means we easily go past that.

The solution is not to back away from enforcing border law.

[anarchist23]

Several American governors have announced that they will move to keep state resources from helping to support President Donald Trump's "zero-tolerance" immigration policies that have resulted in thousands of children being taken from their parents after entering the United States.
The governors of Massachusetts, New York, and Colorado have all announced that they will suspend either state resources or their state's national guard forces from helping to enforce the controversial policies, which have resulted in at least 2,000 children being taken from their parents after crossing the border, according to reports.
Of those, one governor - Charlie Baker, of Massachusetts - is a Republican, while the other two - Andrew Cuomo, of New York, and John Hickenlooper, of Colorado - are Democrats.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 05371.html



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[One Degree]

Yes. This thread concerns forced separation of children from their parents.
The Trump supporters will try to broaden the discussion into general immigration and thus attempt to derail the thread.

So the purpose was to create a thread so narrow that the overriding issues could not be discussed?
Yes, we are aware Democrats do this intentionally. It is very dishonest.

[SpecialOlympian]

You've actually just proven A23 right.

Also nobody is stifling your free speech no matter how desperately you wish to portray yourself as oppressed or somehow the victim of dirty tricks. You are free to create a general Immigration Reform Thread, which I believe would be perfectly suited for the NA forum.

[One Degree]

You've actually just proven A23 right.

Also nobody is stifling your free speech no matter how desperately you wish to portray yourself as oppressed or somehow the victim of dirty tricks. You are free to create a general Immigration Reform Thread, which I believe would be perfectly suited for the NA forum.

Yes, he is correct this is a dishonest tactic to deliberately disguise the real issues that Americans disagree with you. The MSM has taught you well.

[anarchist23]

In the UK we have the Tory government following a policy of a hostile environment for immigrants.

The sickening images of children cruelly separated from their parents and held in cages as a result of Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ policy of ‘zero-tolerance’ will leave an indelible stain on the reputation of the USA, said Amnesty International today.

“This is a spectacularly cruel policy, where frightened children are being ripped from their parent’s arms and taken to overflowing detention centres, which are effectively cages. This is nothing short of torture. The severe mental suffering that officials have intentionally inflicted on these families for coercive purposes, means that these acts meet the definitions of torture under both US and international law,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas, Amnesty International’s Americas Director.

Make no mistake, these family separations are a crisis of the government’s own making. The U.S. government is playing a sick game with these families’ lives by playing politics with what is a serious and mounting refugee crisis.

“There is no question that President Trump administration’s policy of separating mothers and fathers from their children is designed to impose severe mental suffering on these families, in order to deter others from trying to seek safety in the USA. Many of these families come from countries experiencing generalized violence and grave human rights violations, including Honduras and El Salvador. This is a flagrant violation of the human rights of these parents and children and is also a violation of US obligations under refugee law.”

Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced the “zero-tolerance policy for criminal illegal entry” on 6 April 2018. Since the policy came into effect, more than 2,000 children have been separated from their parents or legal guardians at the US border. Children’s rights are violated in multiple ways: they are detained, they are separated from their parents or guardians, and they are exposed to unnecessary trauma that might affect their development.

Statistics obtained by news media suggest that thousands more migrant families may have been separated by the Trump administration even prior to this new policy.

Amnesty International recently interviewed 17 asylum-seeking parents who were forcibly separated from their children, and all but three of them had entered the USA legally to request asylum.

“The claims of the Trump administration ring hollow. This cruel and unnecessary practice is being inflicted not only on families crossing irregularly, but also on those seeking protection at ports of entry. The majority of these families fled to the US to seek international protection from persecution and targeted violence in the Northern Triangle, where their governments are unwilling or unable to protect them,” said Guevara-Rosas.

Secretary of Homeland Security Kirstjen Nielsen has denied a policy of separating families is in place, but her statement from January this year confirms that the intention all along has been to target families: “We’re looking at a variety of ways to enforce our laws to discourage parents from bringing their children here.” Her predecessor John Kelly, now Trump’s chief of staff, suggested the policy as early as March 2017 “in order to deter” families of migrants and asylum seekers from coming to the USA.

“Make no mistake, these family separations are a crisis of the government’s own making. The U.S. government is playing a sick game with these families’ lives by playing politics with what is a serious and mounting refugee crisis. Just as we have seen with previous immigration reforms from this administration, authorities have chosen to target the very families seeking safety in the USA, adding to the trauma and pain they have already experienced,” said Erika Guevara-Rosas.

Amnesty International is calling on the administration to immediately put an end to this unnecessary, devastating and unlawful policy of forced separation, and to reunite those families that have already been separated as quickly as possible.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... n-torture/




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[blackjack21]

[Zamuel]

bizzilions of bucks for that useless wall, oooor is Trump just going to make Latino Americans pay for it?

Maybe Mr. Wheeler Dealer is going to sell their kids back to them ?

Zam

[anarchist23]

Young children staying in jail with their mothers is a common practice around the world in both developed and developing countries. Although this article is long it is worth a read, without a doubt.

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/children-r ... oreign.php

[anarchist23]

Countries surveyed are.

Algeria
Argentina
Australia
Belgium
Benin
Bolivia
Botswana
Brazil
Burma
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Canada
Chile
China
Colombia
Côte d’Ivoire
Cuba
Denmark
Ecuador
Egypt
El Salvador
England and Wales
Ethiopia
Fiji
Finland
France
Greece
Guatemala
Haiti
Honduras
Hong Kong
Iceland
India
Indonesia
Iraq
Ireland
Israel
Italy
Jamaica
Japan
Jordan
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kiribati
Kuwait
Libya
Luxembourg
Malawi
Malaysia
Mali
Mexico
Morocco
Namibia
Nepal
New Zealand
Nicaragua
Nigeria
Norway
Oman
Pakistan
Papua New Guinea
Peru
Philippines
Portugal

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/children-r ... oreign.php

[Suntzu]

[Finfinder]

Well, obviously, I would have preferred Obama had put these kids up in a decent hotel, but this is different. These kids came up alone. Obama didn't break up families. That's Trump's trick to try and force Democrats to pay for that useless wall. And this includes babies and preschoolers.


SO

You tell him, SO!

I don't understand your point at all except you give a pass to an obvious failed attempt to use 2014 photos as propaganda. Which is more proof that your ilk loves the issue more than the fix.

[Zamuel]

As for the Nazis, it was kind of a rough ride for the Jews and a few other minorities. The rest of Germany did just fine until the war started.

A rough ride to the gas chambers, yeah. But that's not my point. In Germany a steady progression of atrocities perpetrated by Nazi goons steadily desensitized the population. They reached the point of simply ignoring the evils done in their name. They are still paying the price for allowing this. America must not follow this path.

Zam

[Conscript]

A rough ride to the gas chambers, yeah. But that's not my point. In Germany a steady progression of atrocities perpetrated by Nazi goons steadily desensitized the population. They reached the point of simply ignoring the evils done in their name. They are still paying the price for allowing this. America must not follow this path.

Zam

That's really not true. What desensitized the Germans was their Central European predicament following WW1, troubled by communist revolution, labor unrest, Polish riots, economic downturn, poor post-war national divisions that didn't reflect ethnic composition, and a general sense of their national interest being neglected by the fought-for international order and its hierarchy of dominance. Fascism doesn't make a country go 0-100, to paraphrase Mosley it's a product of a sense that the old order failed to solve modern problems.

The mentioned background conditions are things that weren't dealt with by the political center, either because it couldn't or wouldn't, leaving room for both the far-right and far-left to lay claim to solving the country's problems. The only thing that would lead America down a path to fascism is forbidding the center-right from taking steps to resolve the social contradictions, antagonisms, and questions brought to a head by accelerated material development after the left has demonstrated no interest in doing such (in fact, relishing at either heartland or rust belt people being culturally and economically left behind as a chance to shape the nation's values and identity), such as pushing back on a one-sided debate in the overall role of the nation-state and borders in a globalized world. The skewed nature of such debate is a product of post-45, post-60s, post-91 momentum rewarding a certain belief on the exact degree liberal universalism and its historical mission contradict national self-determination. Trumpian populism can be seen as a corrective force against an old or skewed consensus (however you want to see it), swinging the pendulum back after it progressively went into overdrive with these time periods. Whether it can go too far in certain cases is a legitimate debate.

But, capitalism has worsened our class, city-countryside, and ethnic/racial divides while at the same time developing a greater plutocratic nature that does not respect the nation-state which served as the original vehicle for liberalism. After a brief end of history that saw such social antagonisms rise back to a head, we are seeing a return to ideological opposition to liberalized capitalism on the basis of justice, stability, or a bit of both.

[Rugoz]

Trumpian populism can be seen as a corrective force against an old or skewed consensus (however you want to see it), swinging the pendulum back after it progressively went into overdrive with these time periods. Whether it can go too far in certain cases is a legitimate debate.

Trumpian populism is not a "corrective force". It addresses a minor issue (globalization) the wrong way and ignores the major issue (economic inequality).

[Stormsmith]

I don't understand your point at all except you give a pass to an obvious failed attempt to use 2014 photos as propaganda. Which is more proof that your ilk loves the issue more than the fix.

My point is that these two scenarios are a false equivalancy. The fix is to keep families together for the sake of the children. Put them where you like. PS I haven't used images for either side

Maybe Mr. Wheeler Dealer is going to sell their kids back to them ?

Zam

Maybe. The parents could be farmed out in CA where there a shortage of farm workers...I wonder why.