Trumps separating Central American children from their parents. Is this acceptable? - Page 23 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14926439
SpecialOlympian wrote:From NPR & ICE:



They also apparently use phone apps as well. Details in the article.


The obvious deception here is the figure is based upon those enrolled in the program. Obviously, they would have been chosen based upon some criteria for believing they were honest. The figure is meaningless applied to all asylum seekers. This accounts for the difference in percentages, not Republican deception. The deception appears to be from the other side.

Edit: I just read that the children are under the care of Health and Human Services. With their parents, they will be under US Marshals jurisdiction. Nice going. Lol
Last edited by One Degree on 20 Jun 2018 22:29, edited 1 time in total.
#14926441
SpecialOlympian wrote:Good job reading, 1°. Obviously this only applies to people enrolled in the program, and not people who are detained. I am sure the detained rate is 100% when it comes to making court appearances.

This number is from ICE btw.


It is a lot lower when you give them bus tickets. Why are they not included? It appears maybe one program was cherry picked? Since your source was a ‘talk show’, I don’t really know what this refers to.
#14926443
Because you do not enroll in bus tickets home, as presumably people who are being bused out of the country are not expected to show up to Immigration Court. This should not be difficult to understand, even for a Trump supporter.

Morning Edition is one of NPR's morning news shows, btw. It is not a talk show.
#14926444
Drlee wrote:The people illegally entering the US are, for the most part, committing a misdemeanor. They are not "criminals" anymore than anyone here who has had a littering, jay walking, speeding or shoplifting offense is. So let's just stop that ignorance right now.


Why do people think this is an argument? Either you have a border and a system that doesn't release people, or you don't.

SpecialOlympian wrote:Good job reading, 1°. Obviously this only applies to people enrolled in the program, and not people who are detained. I am sure the detained rate is 100% when it comes to making court appearances.

This number is from ICE btw.



Yes, and the combined released and never detained in absentia statistic is 39% in 2016, a rise from 24% in 2012.
https://www.justice.gov/eoir/page/file/fysb16/download
Pdf page 52

This rise roughly correlates with the 130% increase in asylum claims from 2010-2014. pdf page 27
https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/673941.pdf
Last edited by Conscript on 20 Jun 2018 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
#14926445
Really? You use an article saying how horrible family incarceration is to justify it? Did you read the article?


What is the matter sport? Not man enough to google it if you disagree? To hard for you? Do you want me to find an article with really small words?

Man up. Do you deny that you were wrong when you said the US never incarcerated adults and children together? Do you deny the overwhelming evidence of many family detention centers in the US?

You can troll all you want to but everyone here will know exactly what you are made of.

This is fucking serious. This detention of children and refusal to even allow asylum seekers to enter and plead their case makes the US a pariah state. Under republican leadership we have violated every notion of human decency that we have spent a couple of hundred years speaking against.

The Trump administration has insulted the memory of every soldier who died defending freedom. Today he ran away from what he did. Did he realize what he did? Nope. He said "(he) didn't like how it looked".

Go ahead and defend him. Just understand that anyone who attempts to justify the jailing of innocent children is a scum bag. You get to decide right now where you come down on the jailing in concentration camps of innocent babies, toddlers and children. Decide.
#14926446
Finfinder wrote:You think Americans vote solely on immigration policy?

Of course not, I think many American voters vacillate, and are swayed by momentum more than ideology.

The right outcome occurred how is that a swing and a miss and now the ball is in congresses court.

My perception, and I think that of many voters, is that Trump once again CREATED a situation and tried to blame it in his opponents. He then attempted to "Make a Deal" that favored him and his image. That failed (Badly) as did the attempt to fix blame on his opposition (Dems). In the end he caved rather than allow the backlash to grow into a festering wound.

If you consider that ... "the right outcome" you need to decrease the dosage on your meds.

None of this EVER should have happened. It was a scam by Trump, he thought he could make it work for him and win midterm votes. Oooops.

Zam :eek:
#14926447
SpecialOlympian wrote:Because you do not enroll in bus tickets home, as presumably people who are being bused out of the country are not expected to show up to Immigration Court. This should not be difficult to understand, even for a Trump supporter.

Morning Edition is one of NPR's morning news shows, btw. It is not a talk show.


Is this deliberate ignorance? Obviously they were bussed in the country, not out of it.

@Drlee Family detention was unheard of until 2007(?). It has been controversial ever since. It has never been an established means of detention in the US. Yes, I ignored these recent failed attempts to do what Democrats are now advocating. It is obvious from the article you supplied Democrats have no intention of supporting family incarceration. It was simply a ruse to end all incarceration. They want open borders and get support from people who don’t think beyond the last emotional picture.
#14926452
SpecialOlympian wrote:[Zag Edit: Rule 2]


It's a better logical deduction than saying Trump must want to separate children. The Democrats have offered no solution to crossings between ports of entry or the subsequent releases and in absentia rates. They seem to just want to harvest the excesses of a broken, overwhelmed system for imagery and political points in an opportunist kind of humanism.
#14926453
If he didn't want to separate children then why did he do it? There's also Sessions, Miller, etc. on record saying they absolutely wanted to do this as a deterrent.

Anyway, let's go over what you said again because you clearly didn't give much thought to it:

Separating children from parents: A well thought out, planned, and executed approach to fixing immigration done with the noblest of intentions.

Pointing out that we are putting children in concentration camps: Evil, opportunistic scheming from the Democrats actively trying to impede a brilliant legislative solution.

The Democrats have offered no solution to crossings between ports of entry or the subsequent releases and in absentia rates. They seem to just want to harvest the excesses of a broken, overwhelmed system for imagery and political points in an opportunist kind of humanism.


Good thing the Republicans control the House, Senate, and Executive branch and don't have to rely on Democrats for solutions. Too bad they are incapable of passing meaningful legislation though :/
Last edited by SpecialOlympian on 21 Jun 2018 00:05, edited 1 time in total.
#14926454
Looks like Donald stepped in shit. As The Great Buck Passer and The Man Who Never Errs he will, of course, spin this as another great triumph and blame the mess on someone else. Any bets on who this will be? Hillary? Obama? The Democrats? Warren G. Harding?

Image

:lol:
#14926461
D
rlee Family detention was unheard of until 2007(?). It has been controversial ever since. It has never been an established means of detention in the US.


Family detention most certainly is "established". The Obama administration asked for funding for almost 7000 spaces.

Why do you find it so hard to admit that you are wrong? Do you think that makes you look less absurd than sticking to a position that is obviously been proved wrong?

I do not find it hard to admit it when I am wrong. Or even more frequently when I change my mind.


The Democrats have offered no solution to crossings between ports of entry or the subsequent releases and in absentia rates. They seem to just want to harvest the excesses of a broken, overwhelmed system for imagery and political points in an opportunist kind of humanism.


Of course this is not true. The democrats (if you count Obama as a democrat) deported a shit load of people. They do not advocate open borders as so often is claimed. Ever since my party (Republican) had decided that lying is OK this contention has been common though.

The Democratic Party platform says:

The Democratic Party supports legal immigration, within reasonable limits, that meets the needs of families, communities, and the economy as well as maintains the United States’ role as a beacon of hope for people seeking safety, freedom, and security. People should come to the United States with visas and not through smugglers.


Doesn't sound like open borders to me.

The Libertarian platform says:

We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.


There are your open borders folks. Libertarians who by the way vote republican almost always.
#14926462
@Hong Wu Build the wall. Something like this, perhaps? Trump can try to make the Inuit pay for it.
Image

I'd fly into America, anyways. I am a preferred customer to the US(Nexus pass) because of my frequent trips. :D

Excellent post @Drlee.
#14926476
Drlee with the super judgmental "illegal immigration is less harmful than littering because the fine is less", as if anyone expects them to have money to pay fines. Still, Trump has signed an executive order so the as little as a a working day-long family separations for getting caught trying to sneak into the country will end, probably to the detriment of the occasional trafficked minor. Selective outrage is an amazing thing.

Winter is coming :eek:
#14926491
Donald Trump is deporting fewer people than Barack Obama did
By The Economist

Yet figures released by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) on December 5th show that the total number of deportations has declined over the past fiscal year—from October 1st 2016 to September 30th 2017—to the lowest level seen since 2006. The data also show that deportation has become less selective in the Trump era, increasing the risk of removal for people like Mr Barrios Mendoza, who have led long and quiet lives in America.

The decrease in total deportations is largely explained by a 17% drop in the number of immigrants arrested and removed at the border over the past fiscal year. Recent border crossers are the easiest to deport; those found within 100 miles (161km) of the frontier who have been in America 14 days or fewer are not entitled to make their case before an immigration judge, a process that can take months, if not years, in the backlogged courts. DHS officials credit tighter border security and more stringent interior enforcement with dissuading migrants from making the risky trek across America’s southern frontier. Mr Trump’s harsh rhetoric probably served as a deterrent, but border apprehensions, which are often used as a proxy for illegal immigration, began declining before he moved into the Oval Office.


Trump appears to be better at deterrence than deporting.

SpecialOlympian wrote:I am sure the detained rate is 100% when it comes to making court appearances.

Sadly it is below 100% due to suicide.
#14926493
Imagine you've spent time arguing with people who think that fatherhood and families should be abolished but all of a sudden they care a lot, at least when it comes to attacking you, happens to be after some IG report thing comes out.

So Trump can't process them as criminals but he sure can't put the kids in jail with adults, they don't care that this dilemma obviously existed in some form under Obama too, so now he has to immediately deport without much process. But they won't accept that either. You realize that these vindictive hypocrites leave you with no way out.

Just the left playing with fire as usual I guess...
#14926523
Please tell me the Democrats solution to illegal immigration. For those arguing against separating children, are you going to support family incarceration? Your silence will be proof of your hypocrisy.
#14926530
Godstud wrote:There has always been family incarceration. Only Trump's recent policy changed that.

No one has the solution for illegal immigration, but the Zero Tolerance policy is quite terrible.


Only intermittently since 2007. To refuse Trump’s solution by saying there is no solution is disingenuous.
You are simply proposing open borders through default.
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