Tommy Robinson Sent to Prison - Page 25 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14926168
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Please describe or show me what you mean, @Pants-of-dog. This is a bit tedious.


Well, when I argued that presumption of innocence is limited to court and is not applicable to things like debate forums, you saw this as advocating mob justice.

Now, Yaxley-Lennon is actually trying to subvert presumption of innocence in an ongoing trial, and is doing so by appealing to the media.

If the former is advocating mob justice, how is the latter not also advocating for mob justice?
#14926275
Pants-of-dog wrote:Now, Yaxley-Lennon is actually trying to subvert presumption of innocence in an ongoing trial, and is doing so by appealing to the media.

If the former is advocating mob justice, how is the latter not also advocating for mob justice?

In the US and Canada, juries can be sequestered during deliberations and are admonished to avoid media throughout the trial.
#14926282
Tommy Robinson promotes the idea that Muslims are somehow much more liable to be child abusers because …. they are Muslims.

Anyone who goes along with such an idea or proposition is not very bright, because a persons faith does not ever make a person more prone to the abuse of children - however, a persons cultural background may do.

The problem we have in the UK is a problem with people of mainly / mostly Pakistani origin or background, it just so happens that Pakistan is roughly 99% Muslim, so I guess we could say that burglary and theft in Pakistan is a Muslim problem.

Tommy Robinson is a bigot, he is absolutely NOT interested in opposing child abuse, unless of course committed by Muslim people, and only then does he highlight the crime(s).

In recent times here in the UK we have uncovered what was an epidemic of sexual abuse committed by sports / soccer coaches, so where was Tommy Robinson ?, no where to be seen because most of the defendants were white, indigenous British people.

If you cannot see Tommy Robinson for what he really is, then you are obviously supporting and backing bigotry against people because they are somehow different, and you assist those who promote the idea that all Muslims are either Paedophiles or terrorists.
#14926362
witchfinder wrote:Tommy Robinson promotes the idea that Muslims are somehow much more liable to be child abusers because …. they are Muslims.

Anyone who goes along with such an idea or proposition is not very bright, because a persons faith does not ever make a person more prone to the abuse of children - however, a persons cultural background may do.

The problem we have in the UK is a problem with people of mainly / mostly Pakistani origin or background, it just so happens that Pakistan is roughly 99% Muslim, so I guess we could say that burglary and theft in Pakistan is a Muslim problem.

Tommy Robinson is a bigot, he is absolutely NOT interested in opposing child abuse, unless of course committed by Muslim people, and only then does he highlight the crime(s).

In recent times here in the UK we have uncovered what was an epidemic of sexual abuse committed by sports / soccer coaches, so where was Tommy Robinson ?, no where to be seen because most of the defendants were white, indigenous British people.

If you cannot see Tommy Robinson for what he really is, then you are obviously supporting and backing bigotry against people because they are somehow different, and you assist those who promote the idea that all Muslims are either Paedophiles or terrorists.


So even if a person is standing up for a ‘good’, he should be dismissed because of his personal attributes?
Most of our most famous quotes and ideals would not exist if we followed that reasoning.
#14926901
Pants-of-dog wrote:Well, when I argued that presumption of innocence is limited to court and is not applicable to things like debate forums, you saw this as advocating mob justice.

I think now is the time to say that you must have misunderstood me.

Pants-of-dog wrote:Now, Yaxley-Lennon is actually trying to subvert presumption of innocence in an ongoing trial, and is doing so by appealing to the media.

I haven't seen enough of the video to determine whether that's true or not. He did break the law and hence jeopardised the trial which, as mentioned, was a mistake, but reporting on a court case, naming the accused, etc. is not subverting the presumption of innocence.
#14926913
Pants-of-dog wrote:Well, do you not think that Yaxley-Lennon was supporting mob justice?

Interesting that you think people should be obedient to the identity that they are born with. I guess if people are not allowed to choose their own name, they're certainly not allowed to choose they're gender. I guess also that you would always refer to Tony Cliff as Yagail Gluckstein.

I must also commend you on choosing to pretend to ignore my posts. You're smart enough to realise that you have no effective counter to my arguments, and that engaging in debate with me, would only lead to the embarrassment of your cause.
#14926917
noir wrote:To galvanize American public opinion support is the only way out.



Lol - the Yanks banging on about human rights??? :D

Didn't they just withdraw their membership of the UN Human Rights Council?

And haven't they just stopped banging up little kids in cages?

And don't US cops often kill unarmed black teens, and get away with that?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't chuck stones. ;)
#14926918
noir wrote:^ Yes, it's pathetic. BTW, George Orwell was born Eric Arthur Blair.


That was a pen name, loads of people use those - he was still Eric Arthur Blair - it's not the same as an official name change.

Samuel Langhorne Clemens, was better known by his pen name Mark Twain, but he remained Samuel Clemens.
#14926921
Paddy14 wrote:Lol - the Yanks banging on about human rights??? :D

Didn't they just withdraw their membership of the UN Human Rights Council?

And haven't they just stopped banging up little kids in cages?

And don't US cops often kill unarmed black teens, and get away with that?

People who live in glass houses shouldn't chuck stones. ;)


The genious of the Islamic Lobby is to wrap their sinister strategy in human rights speak and legalism. Treating once great Britain as laughing stock by their only true ally will have effect among the indigenous British patriots.
#14926931
blackjack21 wrote:Bloody Sunday is known the world over. Nobody believes the UK is as tender a touch as you would have us believe.


Yes 14 people died 36 years ago (before even my mum was born) and there was no excuse for that, but it did happen in a period where there was civil unrest. There was shooting by both the Irish paramilitaries and the British army - and the matter was investigated by the British authorities.

How many British people do you think were killed by IRA terrorists - who were supported, armed, and financed by Americans - since that time?

blackjack21 wrote:You can read, but this is not a complete sentence. You can kill someone who is a threat to you. There is no right to kill someone who stepped on to your property by "mistake."


The Castle Doctrine laws are different from state to state, but too many innocent people have been shot dead by panicky householders (who haven't gone to prison), to say you can only kill someone who is threatening you.

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/24/us/a ... udent.html

And while not every one was killed, loads of people, including kids have been shot just asking directions and stuff like that.


blackjack21 wrote:Again, you have another completely botched sentence. Everyone has access to health care in the US. The US has had social security since 1934 or thereabouts. You might want to try reading modern US government congressional records and not mindless propaganda. Europe lets its women get raped by foreigners. This is not just a problem in the UK. It's a big problem in Germany as well. If your women don't like getting raped by Muslims, your governments characterize them as racist. Europe is a very dark and cruel place.


Social security is not the same thing as Universal Healthcare - can you go to the doctor of your choice, be sent to the hospital you want, and have major surgery - without health insurance, and not pay a penny? I don't think so - even your Emergency Rooms send you huge bills for treatment. Universal healthcare, unlimited unemployment benefits, widow's and old age pensions, disability pensions - all paid for by the government are features of the 'very dark and cruel' society where I live.


blackjack21 wrote:When your government favors foreigners over the citizens they are supposed to protect; when your government allows your women to be raped by foreigners with no recourse; when your streets are rife with grifters; when you have a problem with knife murders that exceeds gun murders in New York City, you may want to rethink what a "great civilization" you have.


It's not Aussies or Brits who brag about their 'great civilisation' - it's mainly Americans.

blackjack21 wrote:There aren't "armies" of homeless people in the United States. They are thoroughly disorganized. Much of it has to do with alcohol and drugs. Additionally, the US government trade policies favor outsourcing low-cost labor to third world countries--leaving low-IQ people with no means of sustaining themselves. Additionally, US political parties prefer exploiting illegal aliens for low-skilled labor over Americans--who have lawful recourse to the US justice system without being deported. The desultory ethics of the "open borders" movement and the cultural hedonists--so-called "progressives"--share a lot of the blame for homelessness in the United States, and elsewhere. To be a "progressive" is to be a heartless, mindless idiot with an ego and sense of self-esteem that bears no relation to reality whatsoever.


I don't know what it is you call 'progressive', but the most successful societies on earth have a mixture of free enterprise and socialism. You should visit the Northern European societies some day.

Here are some independent rankings of the standard of living (called the IHDI index) across the several countries.

1. Norway

3. Australia

5. Germany

13. UK

19. USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... justed_HDI

The wealthiest nation on earth is 19th in standard of living! :eh:
#14926937
The genious of the Islamic Lobby is to wrap their sinister strategy in human rights speak and legalism. Treating once great Britain as laughing stock by their only true ally will have effect among the indigenous British patriots.


I personally do not belong to any religious lobby, because I am a proud atheist


All I am attempting to convey is that it is wrong, and was wrong for Tommy Robinson to lobby anyone involved in an on-going criminal court case, I regard my opinion as simply common sense, because it can obviouly be construed as influencing the case, which is ilegal.


There are many failings in the United Kingdom, but English and Scottish law is not one of them, I believe our justice system(s) in this country are the best in the world, which is why they have been copied many times - including by the United States of America.


I do not adhere to Islam, but I would defend each and every persons right to practice his or her chosen faith in the name of freedom and without fear or prejudice, and of course that applies to all faiths.
#14926938
The growing colonization and invasion is much more than "defend each and every persons right to practice his or her chosen faith". You're too naive to get their end strategy or sophisticated tactics to achive this.

TR has difficulty to convey his liberation message because of his class and his background as former football hooligan. But he will always remembered as the man who changed the tide against the current British "bien pensant" views.
#14926954
Paddy14 wrote:Yes 14 people died 36 years ago (before even my mum was born) and there was no excuse for that, but it did happen in a period where there was civil unrest. There was shooting by both the Irish paramilitaries and the British army - and the matter was investigated by the British authorities.

How many British people do you think were killed by IRA terrorists - who were supported, armed, and financed by Americans - since that time?

Plenty, I'm sure. My point is that you brag about police officers with no guns and everything being ultra fair in the UK while you bash the US constantly. The Tommy Robinson case is an example of what would not happen in the US, because the courts can muzzle the free speech of the entire public. They can only sequester people involved in a case so that limits to freedom are absolutely minimized.

Paddy14 wrote:The Castle Doctrine laws are different from state to state, but too many innocent people have been shot dead by panicky householders (who haven't gone to prison), to say you can only kill someone who is threatening you.

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/24/us/a ... udent.html

And while not every one was killed, loads of people, including kids have been shot just asking directions and stuff like that.

There was a little more to that case, and that's why there was an acquittal. Rushing someone with a gun after they tell you to stop is not a good idea.

Paddy14 wrote:Social security is not the same thing as Universal Healthcare - can you go to the doctor of your choice, be sent to the hospital you want, and have major surgery - without health insurance, and not pay a penny?

I have family from the UK. It's nowhere near as elective a place as you are implying. If you need a quadruple bypass, you can't just say, "I'll be in Thursday afternoon after my golf game..." pretty much anywhere in the world.

Paddy14 wrote:I don't think so - even your Emergency Rooms send you huge bills for treatment.

Not since ObamaCare. You can sign up in the waiting room. There's no more pre-existing condition clause. So you can show up with a gun shot and sign up for Medicaid on the spot.

Paddy14 wrote:Universal healthcare, unlimited unemployment benefits, widow's and old age pensions, disability pensions - all paid for by the government are features of the 'very dark and cruel' society where I live.

It seems very desirable to people from cultures where neither men nor women vote, women are second class citizens, and archaic religious views are not only practiced but enforced as a matter of law. I prefer not to live under a combination of Sharia and leftist group think.

Paddy14 wrote:It's not Aussies or Brits who brag about their 'great civilisation' - it's mainly Americans.

You just did that in your previous comment. Not uttering the words 'great civilization' doesn't exempt you from that criticism. Someone just needs to write a book called "The Ugly European" so that it becomes clearer to you that you are every bit as smug as Americans.

Paddy14 wrote:I don't know what it is you call 'progressive', but the most successful societies on earth have a mixture of free enterprise and socialism. You should visit the Northern European societies some day.

I've been to the UK, Ireland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany. I haven't been to Norway. I didn't mention Italy, Spain, or Switzerland, as I suspect they may be too far South for your tastes.

noir wrote:TR has difficulty to convey his liberation message because of his class and his background as former football hooligan. But he will always remembered as the man who changed the tide against the established paradigm.

Indeed. They just made him an historical figure.
#14926955
Albert wrote: You ask deep questions PI, forgive me, that is why it takes me some time to respond to you. I fully understand what background Robinson comes from. I also see that the modern "alt-right" has many irreligious in their ranks. I support them out of principle. What Robinson endures under the state is oppression and that is wrong. Whatever colours or stripes a person is I would not support such treatment towards them. Unless it is deserved, like a person planned terrorism or some other ignorant violent act.


Please excuse me for taking so long to respond to you, it is a busy time at the moment, as always.

I understand your sympathy on the basis of fair treatment.

Albert wrote:Tommy is oppressed by the state, he also is trying to expose the wrongdoing of the state, that is why he is in jail now. I support what he is trying to do. As I think the sooner it is exposed what these anarco-progressives are doing the better it would be for everyone in the long run.


The trouble is that it is becoming a new binary, and society is becoming increasingly more polarised into two camps that have analysed the world in a particular way. Alt-Right and far left are essentially these two camps. Both have a very flawed and extreme view of reality, it's mostly incorrect no matter what side. Eventually I think one of these two will prevail over the other, but the truth which one finds in the middle ground will not be upheld. The far right and far left are both very dangerous forces, Albert. And this time, unlike last time, the world view of the Alt-Right and far left are even more exreme and hysterical. If the Alt-Right prevail we will see a massive clash of civilisations, and the import into Europe of American style racial hysteria. The Alt-Right is all racial, it's a white identity movement. Obviously Americans will produce this type of movement because they are a racially obsessed society. That is not going to work because white identity politics will isolate the whites from humanity. The extreme right of the 1930s was not a white identity movement either. Those were national movements. And the Islamophobic wing of this movement that rallies people around liberal nationalism and opposition to Muslim immigration will be even more dangerous.

Europe cannot afford to have a clash of civilisations with the Islamic world. Both will end up destroyed.

Albert wrote:I also understand that Robinson is an English nationalist at heart and he or people like him if push comes to shove wont necessary tolerate Russians all that much. If given their way it will not only be non-Europeans who will have to leave, but also large numbers of non assimilated European nationals as well. That is the reality of things and I have come to accept it. Hence why I'm also preparing a plan B to migrate to Russia when the lid finally flies off this whole progressive nonsense. That is why in my other reply to you, people like us, who see what is happening and understand where things are going have to be prepared and not be taken by surprise of events.


I hope we can avoid it. Sadly this bifurcation we're witnessing is just going to get worse. The extreme right and extreme left, both equally detestable, will only get stronger until one prevails over the other and the centre ground.

Albert wrote:I would not underestimate Robinson, I get the sense that he knows many things and knows where he is going. He is not stupid by any measure at all. He concentrates on "Islam" because he knows he can get away with it rather then just speaking about migrants in general. Islam has become an open easy target to channel one's discontent with immigration policies and the whole progressive multicultural program in general.


But that is pure communalism. It's a nothing but a right wing type of SJWism. The real solution is to transcend SJWism and unite all communities within the state around the national cause.

Both Alt-Right and far left will not agree to do this. The Alt-Right will refuse to embrace the non-whites and Muslims while the far left will keep pushing for mass immigration and more anti-white nonsense. Both are communalist SJW idiots.

Albert wrote:I also believe Robinson is genuinely a good man who is trying to do best for his country. He is fighting for the English people after all. Look how much he has already sacrificed for them.


I agree that he is a good man, and a brave man. But he is misguided and does not know how he is being manipulated.
#14926987
The trouble is that it is becoming a new binary, and society is becoming increasingly more polarised into two camps that have analysed the world in a particular way. Alt-Right and far left are essentially these two camps. Both have a very flawed and extreme view of reality, it's mostly incorrect no matter what side. Eventually I think one of these two will prevail over the other, but the truth which one finds in the middle ground will not be upheld. The far right and far left are both very dangerous forces, Albert. And this time, unlike last time, the world view of the Alt-Right and far left are even more exreme and hysterical. If the Alt-Right prevail we will see a massive clash of civilisations, and the import into Europe of American style racial hysteria. The Alt-Right is all racial, it's a white identity movement. Obviously Americans will produce this type of movement because they are a racially obsessed society. That is not going to work because white identity politics will isolate the whites from humanity. The extreme right of the 1930s was not a white identity movement either. Those were national movements. And the Islamophobic wing of this movement that rallies people around liberal nationalism and opposition to Muslim immigration will be even more dangerous.


If it seems as "white identity" movement, is because the other side is much more racialists. They are trying to dissolve the coherence and resolve of this mainly working class street protest movement by branding them as "racists".



Europe cannot afford to have a clash of civilisations with the Islamic world. Both will end up destroyed.


If Britain will not fight for its own heritage and image they will end up like Sweden

#14927003
Swedish police later withdrew their statement that a gang of foreigners had assaulted women at the Bravalla festival after admitting that the “the descriptions [of perpetrators] are diverse”.



:lol:
#14927061
blackjack21 wrote:Plenty, I'm sure. My point is that you brag about police officers with no guns and everything being ultra fair in the UK while you bash the US constantly. The Tommy Robinson case is an example of what would not happen in the US, because the courts can muzzle the free speech of the entire public. They can only sequester people involved in a case so that limits to freedom are absolutely minimized.


There was a little more to that case, and that's why there was an acquittal. Rushing someone with a gun after they tell you to stop is not a good idea.


I have family from the UK. It's nowhere near as elective a place as you are implying. If you need a quadruple bypass, you can't just say, "I'll be in Thursday afternoon after my golf game..." pretty much anywhere in the world.


Not since ObamaCare. You can sign up in the waiting room. There's no more pre-existing condition clause. So you can show up with a gun shot and sign up for Medicaid on the spot.


It seems very desirable to people from cultures where neither men nor women vote, women are second class citizens, and archaic religious views are not only practiced but enforced as a matter of law. I prefer not to live under a combination of Sharia and leftist group think.


You just did that in your previous comment. Not uttering the words 'great civilization' doesn't exempt you from that criticism. Someone just needs to write a book called "The Ugly European" so that it becomes clearer to you that you are every bit as smug as Americans.


I've been to the UK, Ireland, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany. I haven't been to Norway. I didn't mention Italy, Spain, or Switzerland, as I suspect they may be too far South for your tastes.


Indeed. They just made him an historical figure.


Actually, while I grew up in the UK, I live and go to school in Australia. So I have experience of both countries.
I have never bragged that the UK (or Australia) is better than any other developed society - I just stated what happens in those countries. Whether it's better or worse is up to the reader.

And my mum and dad have friends in the USA, so I was there when I was little, but I don't claim to know much about it. My posts are based on what I have read on the net and in books. And I don't bash the USA except when some Americans claim it is better than anywhere else, and bang on about your 'freedoms'.

And you didn't answer any of the points I raised - you just answered what you thought I was saying.

From what I read in a load of reports - the Japanese student didn't rush anyone - simply took one or two steps into the front yard. Where he was shot dead - there were no hidden justifications.

And the elective thing with universal healthcare is what happens in Australia - where there is an Aussie version of the NHS, but the doctors are all private - they are just paid by the government.

And no matter what you sign up for, your ERs are not free, and that was my point.

And yes, you may have been to lots more countries than me, but a tourist visit doesn't mean you know all about those countries.

When we lived in the UK, we went to Noway, Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Holland, Finland, France, Austria, Germany, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Monaco. And since we moved to Australia, we have been to Singapore, Malaysia, Bali, Hong Kong, Vietnam and China. But all these were just visits of a few days - maybe a week, and I know almost nothing about those countries. I saw nice hotel rooms, and went on guided tours of historical things and pretty scenery. But I have no idea of how those people live their lives.

So sorry, I'm used to flag waving Americans getting all nationalistic, but that doesn't help any discussion. There's lots of good things about your society, but you are not as exceptional as you like to think, and you are not 'the greatest' in everything - no country is.
#14927064
The Islamist worldwide tactic, exploiting the race card and forming an alliance with radical blacks and white SJW racialists (the so called "anti racists") to weaken the indigenous (dubbed "racist") society.

"White Identity movement"

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