[One Degree]

Not that I know of. In many cases it's a human obligation.

Anyway … Facism is -not- an "evil" ideology. In many ways it's the most practical and suitable system available for a stable society. Ayn Rand tried to demonstrate this but was kind of shouted down in her era. It appealed to innovators like Henry Ford. Juan Peron used it to great advantage for Argentina. It's biggest problem stems from it's lack of a balancing system to offset excessive personal power.

Ideally fascism needs a dedicated population, people who need not be coerced into cooperation. An easily available escape route for the disaffected must exist to prevent internal dissension. Fascism is intended to exploit the advantages of unity and cooperation. If allowed to do so without internal distraction, or external interference, it will outpace any other system of government.

Zam

I don’t have much interest in comparing the benefits of political ideologies anymore since I have decided the result is mainly dictated by the natural requirements of hierarchy inherent in all of them much more than any ideology. That said, people should choose the one they want because their support is what will determine the success or failure. They can make any system work without outside interference as you rightly pointed out as a problem.

Edit: I believe it is the structure of hierarchy which makes systems susceptible to corruption. There should only be one level of government which is why I believe no government should have more than a million people.

[Rakshasa]

Were Americans As Bad as the Soviets?

In the popular imagination, American GIs in postwar Germany were well-liked and well-behaved. But a new book claims that US soldiers raped up to 190,000 women at the end of World War II. Is there any truth to the controversial claim?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 21298.html

https://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Unspoken- ... 1509511202

[One Degree]

Were Americans As Bad as the Soviets?

In the popular imagination, American GIs in postwar Germany were well-liked and well-behaved. But a new book claims that US soldiers raped up to 190,000 women at the end of World War II. Is there any truth to the controversial claim?

http://www.spiegel.de/international/ger ... 21298.html

https://www.amazon.com/Crimes-Unspoken- ... 1509511202

This is not news to anyone as you seem to think. It was given widespread coverage because many of the soldiers were Black. Why do you omit this? The mixed race children were a ‘problem’ that was ready evidence in a world where this was unacceptable. It was probably over reported due to race, rather than under reported as you indicate.

[Zamuel]

In the popular imagination, American GIs in postwar Germany were well-liked and well-behaved. But a new book claims that US soldiers raped up to 190,000 women at the end of World War II. Is there any truth to the controversial claim?

Rape / Murder of German women was Russian state policy. It was -not- a punishable offense.

http://www.revisionist.net/human-loot.html “Kill! Kill! In the German race there is nothing but evil. Stamp out the fascist beast once and for all in its lair! Use force and break the racial pride of these German women. Take them as your lawful booty. Kill! As you storm forward. Kill! You gallant soldiers of the Red army.” - Ilya Ehrenburg

"Alexander Solzhenitsyn was a young captain in the Red Army when it entered East Prussia in 1945. He wrote later in his book, ‘The Gulag Archipelago’: “All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction.” (see the url for more detail)

Solzhenitsyn is a well respected authority. His outspoken statements about Russian behavior during the war are one of the things that got him gulaged. He was not alone in making these accusations, or in the gulag.

In contrast American policy was the aggressive prosecution of rapists, in both France and Germany. Rape was not as common due to the GIs abundance of food to trade for sex with the starving populations, but it still happened when the girls took the candy bars and then said "no."

"But rape WAS a problem. By April 1945, 500 rape cases per week were being reported to the Judge Advocate General of American forces in Europe and those were only the reported rapes in limited areas. According to recently disclosed US military records, between 1942 and 1945, US GIs were legally “charged with” committing 11,040 rapes in Germany."

Many of those were eventually dismissed for lack of evidence (refugee women tended to move around a lot). Some were likely never reported. Still the US comes in at a ratio of under 1 / 10 compared to Russian activities. It should also be noted that US soldiers weren't -MURDERING- their victims.

(from your source at Spigel) "5 percent of the "war children" born to unmarried women in West Germany and West Berlin by the mid-1950s were the product of rape. That makes for a total of 1,900 children of American fathers. Gebhardt further assumes that on average, there are 100 incidents of rape for each birth. The result she arrives at is thus 190,000 victims

This is ridiculous … When they counted up Births attributed to Russian rapes, they concluded that 1 pregnancy per 10 rapes was a probable number. Spiegel / Gebhardt is alleging 100 rapes per pregnancy ! Makes for a good headline / title, I suppose.

Zam

[Rakshasa]

Rape / Murder of German women was Russian state policy. It was -not- a punishable offense.

Blatant and offensive lie and slander.
Proof?

Solzhenitsyn is a well respected authority.

SoLIEnitsyn was well known demshiza and slanderer. Proven many years ago.

His outspoken statements about Russian behavior during the war are one of the things that got him gulaged.

Another lie. He insulted Stalin in his letter and make a lots of provoking statement in mail during war.
And he knew it will be inspected, so he deliberately provoked it.

In contrast American policy was the aggressive prosecution of rapists, in both France and Germany.

Another lie. For USA soldiers rape was form of reparation. I already stated big article about it. Take a look above.

http://putnik1.livejournal.com/2137214.html

In short - systematic rapes by USA soldiers were "form of reparation" from the POV of USA commanders.
And it was proven in court after USA Military tried to sue him for slander.
And about "systematic rapes by Russians" - he admit he got 0 proof.

Rape was not as common due to the GIs abundance of food to trade for sex with the starving populations, but it still happened when the girls took the candy bars and then said "no."

Russian soldiers often traded food, cigarettes and other stuff for sex, just like you described.
And for rape punishment was execution. No matter who you are and what is your rank and records.

Still the US comes in at a ratio of under 1 / 10 compared to Russian activities. It should also be noted that US soldiers weren't -MURDERING- their victims.

And you have no proof for this slander.

This is ridiculous … When they counted up Births attributed to Russian rapes, they concluded that 1 pregnancy per 10 rapes was a probable number. Spiegel / Gebhardt is alleging 100 rapes per pregnancy ! Makes for a good headline / title, I suppose.

I read about it - how they calculated "2 millions raped German women".
That method was completely BULLSHIT by many things.
For example woman falsely stated the rape for permission of abortion. She coulnd't do abortion otherwise.

[Albert]

Rape / Murder of German women was Russian state policy. It was -not- a punishable offense.

Like Russian men want to rape women.

I'm not saying it did not happen I'm sure it happened as it did in Russian territory when Germans occupied it, especially with the SS units who were tasked to exterminate Slavs, (but most men in SS were either psychos or brainwashed to begin with). I just really doubt it was something most (95-99%) men committed in the military, on both sides.

[Rakshasa]

In Red Army punishment for that was death. I didn't say it NEVER happened - but it wasn't mass rapes!

[Negotiator]

But even Nazi didn't made "trophies" from bones of killed enemies. Only Usans.

Whats an "Usan" ?

Taking a bone of an opponent that died in battle is pretty regular behavior among primitive people.

And Nazis made soap out of their victims. Which havent died in battle, but have been mass murdered in an industrial way.

Even Nazi didn't use toxic chemicals to poison huge territories to fight guerillas. Only Usans.

Wait a moment, now I get it. Usans = US Americans.

No doubt about it. The world would be paradise without the evil United States. Just look at how great it was before the US existed.

Whow that must be one of the weakest arguments I've ever read in any forum post ever.

The world always gets better over time, obviously. There isnt a single state for which this statement wouldnt be true.

Just look at how awful the world was before Judea existed ! They lived in the bronze age back then, for heavens sake !

Just look at how awful the world was before Germany and France existed ! They had lost all civilization, for heavens sake !

Just look at how awful the world was before China, India, etc etc etc existed !

This is really a dumb thing to say. How has the random point in time at which a certain state started existing anything to do with the state of the whole world ?

So called "Soviet war crimes" looks like standard Goebbels propaganda.

Unsurprisingly. Wikipedia is useless as source for political information. Anyone with even a shred of interest for politics should have noticed by now.

[JohnRawls]

Let us get couple of things straight:

1) Nazis were bad.
2) USSR/Communists were also bad.
3) It doesn't matter who was worse.
4) USSR survived longer so it is hated more nowadays. USSR had a noble goal but that is about it. It was culturally and economically oppressive state at the least. Even if we ignore the Stalin purges/early soviet and WW2 history.

American capitalism triumphed for a reason. It triumphed both culturally and economically, it didn't actually triumph militarily. (The best kind of victory by the way)
So it is very obvious that between USSR Communism, German National Socialism and American capitalism any sane person will choose American capitalism. (Simply by the virtue of it being less oppressive in many areas where National Socialists and USSR Socialists/Communists are oppressive.)

Now having said that, communism in itself is not a bad ideology. While i can't say the same thing about the National Socialists, they did not even have a noble goal of any sort for anybody becides the germans.

[Rancid]

[Albert]

Let us get couple of things straight:

1) Nazis were bad.
2) USSR/Communists were also bad.
3) It doesn't matter who was worse.
4) USSR survived longer so it is hated more nowadays. USSR had a noble goal but that is about it. It was culturally and economically oppressive state at the least. Even if we ignore the Stalin purges/early soviet and WW2 history.

American capitalism triumphed for a reason. It triumphed both culturally and economically, it didn't actually triumph militarily. (The best kind of victory by the way)
So it is very obvious that between USSR Communism, German National Socialism and American capitalism any sane person will choose American capitalism. (Simply by the virtue of it being less oppressive in many areas where National Socialists and USSR Socialists/Communists are oppressive.)

Now having said that, communism in itself is not a bad ideology. While i can't say the same thing about the National Socialists, they did not even have a noble goal of any sort for anybody becides the germans.

I agree with most of what you said here, that is a very interesting point you make here John.

I guess if you look at it, the West won the Cold War because in comparison it provided a better solution to modern industrial existence then Comintern did.

[Rancid]

I guess if you look at it, the West won the Cold War because in comparison it provided a better solution to modern industrial existence then Comintern did.

The business of business is business.
The business of government is business.
What is good for business is good for the country.
everyone has a share.

I'm in love with Catch-22

[Rakshasa]

Whats an "Usan" ?

I won't call them Americans. It's wrong because America is TWO continents, and USA only little part of North America.
And it's extremely wrong and rude mix up good people on both Americas with this nation of abomination.

Taking a bone of an opponent that died in battle is pretty regular behavior among primitive people.

So you think Usans are primitive, savage nation? I agree.

And Nazis made soap out of their victims. Which havent died in battle, but have been mass murdered in an industrial way.

It's a propaganda myth just like lampshades from human skin. Was disproved even before Nurnberg Trial.

Wait a moment, now I get it. Usans = US Americans.

You are genius!

Wow that must be one of the weakest arguments I've ever read in any forum post ever.

I suppose it was sarcasm, from your opponent.
But really, argument is very weak.
And thanks to USA entire world in XX century was put on a brink of self-destruction.

Unsurprisingly. Wikipedia is useless as source for political information. Anyone with even a shred of interest for politics should have noticed by now.

Wiki is useful, but many pages are biased. But even biased ppl cannot deny Usans are primitive...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America ... e_war_dead

========================================================================================================================================

Let us get couple of things straight:
1) Nazis were bad.
2) USSR/Communists were also bad.
3) It doesn't matter who was worse.
4) USSR survived longer so it is hated more nowadays. USSR had a noble goal but that is about it. It was culturally and economically oppressive state at the least. Even if we ignore the Stalin purges/early soviet and WW2 history.

1) Without a doubt.
2) Only for capitalism, because it's complete denial of capitalism, existential threat.
3) No, it's very important for historian, and every ppl who wants to know the truth.
Capitalism is, without a doubt, cannibalistic society, and Nazism is pure capitalism, without mask.
4) Pure BS. USSR is hated by modern lackeys of Capitalism. In Russia they are hated and despised by most ppl.
USSR saved entire civilization from Nazism. Thanks to USSR, entire Colonial system was destroyed and many nation freed from enslavement.
Oppressive BS. During Soviet era Russian culture was extremely high. Now, it's almost gone!
Do you know about "Literature Newspaper" effect? During USSR this magazine was extremely popular. Right after 1991 it's size dropped almost to zero. Capitalism in Russia almost killed all culture, now only vulgar and primitive movies survived.

So, you really know nothing beside Goebbels propaganda. Pity.

American capitalism triumphed for a reason. It triumphed both culturally and economically, it didn't actually triumph militarily. (The best kind of victory by the way)

Economically block of capitalist states was many times bigger than the soviet block.
And military - do you understand WTF are you talking about?
WWIII! It would be end of civilization as we know it!

And now, suddenly, USA capitalism after victory begin to degrade. Do you know why?

So it is very obvious that between USSR Communism, German National Socialism and American capitalism any sane person will choose American capitalism. (Simply by the virtue of it being less oppressive in many areas where National Socialists and USSR Socialists/Communists are oppressive.)

How foolish.
Even best ppl in USA can lose job. And if you lose job, you won't have money to pay rent, you will become homeless in no time. This is worst kind of oppression! For most common kind of ppl - who simply wants to live normal life, not for any kind of BS opposition!

Now having said that, communism in itself is not a bad ideology. While i can't say the same thing about the National Socialists, they did not even have a noble goal of any sort for anybody becides the germans.

You can blame Russians for betraying their own Dream. It would be fair. Since Fall of USSR, 1991, world is quickly going to hell.


========================================================================================================================================

I agree with most of what you said here, that is a very interesting point you make here John.
I guess if you look at it, the West won the Cold War because in comparison it provided a better solution to modern industrial existence then Comintern did.

Wrong.
It won because of betrayal of USSR elite.
His solution to modern industrial existence is total crap.
Just look at the numbers of homeless and poor ppl in USA.



========================================================================================================================================

The business of business is business.
The business of government is business.
What is good for business is good for the country.
everyone has a share.

In short - MONEY UBER ALLES.
This means deep degeneration of entire society.

[JohnRawls]

I won't call them Americans. It's wrong because America is TWO continents, and USA only little part of North America.
And it's extremely wrong and rude mix up good people on both Americas with this nation of abomination.




So you think Usans are primitive, savage nation? I agree.




It's a propaganda myth just like lampshades from human skin. Was disproved even before Nurnberg Trial.




You are genius!




I suppose it was sarcasm, from your opponent.
But really, argument is very weak.
And thanks to USA entire world in XX century was put on a brink of self-destruction.





Wiki is useful, but many pages are biased. But even biased ppl cannot deny Usans are primitive...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/America ... e_war_dead

========================================================================================================================================



1) Without a doubt.
2) Only for capitalism, because it's complete denial of capitalism, existential threat.
3) No, it's very important for historian, and every ppl who wants to know the truth.
Capitalism is, without a doubt, cannibalistic society, and Nazism is pure capitalism, without mask.
4) Pure BS. USSR is hated by modern lackeys of Capitalism. In Russia they are hated and despised by most ppl.
USSR saved entire civilization from Nazism. Thanks to USSR, entire Colonial system was destroyed and many nation freed from enslavement.
Oppressive BS. During Soviet era Russian culture was extremely high. Now, it's almost gone!
Do you know about "Literature Newspaper" effect? During USSR this magazine was extremely popular. Right after 1991 it's size dropped almost to zero. Capitalism in Russia almost killed all culture, now only vulgar and primitive movies survived.

So, you really know nothing beside Goebbels propaganda. Pity.





Economically block of capitalist states was many times bigger than the soviet block.
And military - do you understand WTF are you talking about?
WWIII! It would be end of civilization as we know it!

And now, suddenly, USA capitalism after victory begin to degrade. Do you know why?





How foolish.
Even best ppl in USA can lose job. And if you lose job, you won't have money to pay rent, you will become homeless in no time. This is worst kind of oppression! For most common kind of ppl - who simply wants to live normal life, not for any kind of BS opposition!




You can blame Russians for betraying their own Dream. It would be fair. Since Fall of USSR, 1991, world is quickly going to hell.


========================================================================================================================================




Wrong.
It won because of betrayal of USSR elite.
His solution to modern industrial existence is total crap.
Just look at the numbers of homeless and poor ppl in USA.



========================================================================================================================================




In short - MONEY UBER ALLES.
This means deep degeneration of entire society.

You have a very naive understanding of what happened. I would say biased actually more than naive.

To get it started a bit, yes communism is obviously hated by capitalism. But mostly it is now for historical reasons of the communist system being opressive to ex Warshaw pact countries/Comiecon. During those times, there was no choice for them in both cultural matters and economical ones.(So it is well deserved) Fall in line with communist ideals or tanks will roll in. This is the main reason for the hate.

I do not understand, why do you need to decide who is better or worse between the 2 very bad choices. I am not equating Nazis to Communists but still, for a lot of people communism brought nothing besides pain, oppression and bad memories. Russian people perhaps do not remember it that way but for most of eastern Europe it is the case. If you want some gratitude, then Nazis were worse because, as i mentioned before, communists didn't really wanna kill everyone besides themselves.

Communism played a very important part for Russia. It educated the serfs and industrialised the nation. Basically it managed to Europenise and industrialize Russia. It brought a lot of European concepts to the Russian serfs. But after that happened, there was no more use for communism. After the population is educated and the industry is there to a degree, you need to start doing something with your education and industry. Communism doesn't allow this to a large degree. A brilliant person might invent a new car, truck, iphone, ipad etc but the communist planner will simply consider it irrelevant and never will launch it to mass production. On top of that, even if it gets launched it will be small in quantity(If people don't pay full price + profit then you can't expand/shrink production properly) and there will be much less research on that product ( Again, because concept of profit either does not exist or goes to the state instead of the inventor/producer).

This is the main problem of communism. It has never achieved anything for the common man besides education and healthcare. When it comes to general commodities that make our life much better, it is far enferiore to capitalism. It was the capitalist that invented and put in to production: cars, refrigirators, washing machines, microwaves, tvs, internet etc. People in space, nuclear bombs and rockets are not something that benefit the common man.

Culturally communism uplifted the Russian serf. It provided him the education that is required to understand and admire culture. But it did not uplift the European people of eastern Europe who already had that and had a far better standard of living. On top of that communism imposed restrictions on national thought and religion for example. Also on some local cultural differences. Why can't the poles remember some parts of its history because it is considred anti-communist? Why can't Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians do that also?

As for the downsides of capitalism. Yes, it has a lot of them also. At the least though, capitalism does not require economic oppression. I also does not require religious oppression. Finally it uses the cultural elements of the society instead of suppressing them.

USSR ultimately lost because the people gave up when they understood that for an Educated person capitalism is far superior. For a serf communism perhaps is better but when you are educated then it does not look that way. Also capitalism provided a FAR better standard of living compared to Communism. The Elites are also people by the way. So since the belief was lost so did the USSR crumble.