[Pants-of-dog]

Please note that I never claimed you should apy reparations that were gathered by taxes.

I simply pointed out that your analogy is not a realistic depiction of the situation.

While you may say you oppose it, I see no real efforts to stop this from people in the USA.

[Sivad]

These societies aren't prosperous because they've had incompetent and corrupt leadership for decades.

I agree that that's one of the reasons, but it's not the sole reason. There's been a lot of theft and exploitation by the US and the US does foster the corruption and incompetence to advance its own interests. I don't think the US can solve all the problems in these societies but if the US just stopped exacerbating the problems these societies would at least be livable and that alone would reduce immigration.

If those countries wouldn't fuck it up all the time they wouldn't need the IMF in the first place.

Those countries are set up to fail.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I simply pointed out that your analogy is not a realistic depiction of the situation.

Not for present issues, but its still close, a second analogy would only remove the multi-generational distance from the infraction. I already described why reparations would still be unjust.

While you may say you oppose it, I see no real efforts to stop this from people in the USA.

What do you want me to do Pants? Declare war on the pentagon with my pick-up truck and hunting rifle so the United States will stop putting tariffs on venezuela and funding guerillas who burn cocaine crops in Colombia?

[Rugoz]

While internal corruption is a problem, it does not mean that US intervention is not also a problem.

It's perfectly possible to become prosperous in a world dominated by the US, just don't be stupid and have delusions of grandeur.

This seems incorrect.

Most countries need IMF loans not because of corruption but becuase of longstanding debt issues that have existed since colonial times. The Haitian debt, for example, was initially caused by Europeans demanding reparations for lost slaves.

Haiti hasn't paid anything to France since WW2, meanwhile it got $13bn in aid since 2010 alone. You're making stuff up.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Haiti hasn't paid anything to France since WW2, meanwhile it got $13bn in aid since 2010 alone. You're making stuff up.

It's perfectly possible to become prosperous in a world dominated by the US, just don't be stupid and have delusions of grandeur.

and don't have too much oil with too little allies.....

[Pants-of-dog]

Not for present issues, but its still close, a second analogy would only remove the multi-generational distance from the infraction. I already described why reparations would still be unjust.

I am not interested in a discussion about your imaginary victimhood at having to pay imaginary reparations.

The actual point is that this is still an ongoing problem caused by the US, and Latin Americans are still having to pay for these policies in many ways, including migration.

What do you want me to do Pants? Declare war on the pentagon with my pick-up truck and hunting rifle so the United States will stop putting tariffs on venezuela and funding guerillas who burn cocaine crops in Colombia?

Again, this is not about you.

The fact is that despite lip service to ideas of freedom, most people in the US do absolutely nothing to support things like freedom when it comes to the actions of their own government and corporations.

——————————

It's perfectly possible to become prosperous in a world dominated by the US, just don't be stupid and have delusions of grandeur.

This does not contradict my claims that US neoliberal intervention is partly responsible for the disastrous conditions that are impelling migration.

Haiti hasn't paid anything to France since WW2, meanwhile it got $13bn in aid since 2010 alone. You're making stuff up.

I think that the fact that Haiti had to pay 21 billion dollars (and interest) over 147 years was probably significant in terms of reducing Haitian economic development.

A lot of its current debt is due to the Duvaliers.

US support of the Duvalier dynasty is well documented.
https://www.indystar.com/story/opinion/ ... /17191805/

The Duvaliers, in turn, supported US corporations and arrested anyone who tried to help the workers.

[Victoribus Spolia]

The fact is that despite lip service to ideas of freedom, most people in the US do absolutely nothing to support things like freedom when it comes to the actions of their own government and corporations

[Pants-of-dog]

:violin:

Your emotional reaction is irrelevant.

The point is that the US population is not going to do anything about US neoliberal practices except maybe dismiss it as fake or insignificant, as has been shown in this thread.

Since the US is not going to do anything about it, it is up to us instead.

And this is why socialism is a big thing in Latin America.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Your emotional reaction is irrelevant.

The point is that the US population is not going to do anything about US neoliberal practices except maybe dismiss it as fake or insignificant, as has been shown in this thread.

Since the US is not going to do anything about it, it is up to us instead.

And this is why socialism is a big thing in Latin America.

Not an argument. More victim-narrative whining.

[Pants-of-dog]

Not an argument. More victim-narrative whining.

Your reading comprehension is abysmal.

Please note that I am pointing out that we are not going to idly stand by and play the victim while you guys pat yourself on the back for doing nothing, or whine about imaginary reparations.

We will, instead, strive to limit the negative effects of your capitalist policies.

And we will do this with socialism.

[Victoribus Spolia]

You do that Che.

[Pants-of-dog]

I see that we have reached the point in the thread where you give up on making argumnets and go straight to the ad hominems.

Please try to remain courteous and respectful to other users of the forums at all times and avoid making personally directed attacks on any other user.

[Sivad]

I don't think Americans should pay for reparations via taxes

There's a lot of ways to finance it. Debt cancellation or zero interest loans wouldn't cost taxpayers a dime. You could also look at it as an investment in global security. Prosperous democratic countries don't support violent extremism or go to war with their neighbors. It would make the world as a whole much more safe and prosperous and everyone benefits from that.

[Sivad]

Since the US is not going to do anything about it, it is up to us instead.

And this is why socialism is a big thing in Latin America.

[center-img]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5lBrzOCxGjQ/WShnvwegEuI/AAAAAAAA4ek/urXyQTnuoaAIByuF3TA4awq3F7Oif1K2gCEw/s1600/574f50b20e21634575082360mmw_gulag_031.png[/center-img]

[Pants-of-dog]

If the US were to only cancel the existing debts and stop further interventions, these two things would be huge game changers.

However, it is not feasible in the international capitalist system to do so. Both would work against the financial interests of the bankers, defense insustries, related resource industries, and other major players in this conflict.

Since we are discussing Latin America and neoliberalism, it would be more appropriate to show a picture of the many, many, prisons, torture centers, mass graves, etc. that were used by the right wing dictators such as the aforementioned Duvaliers.

[Rugoz]

I agree that that's one of the reasons, but it's not the sole reason. There's been a lot of theft and exploitation by the US and the US does foster the corruption and incompetence to advance its own interests. I don't think the US can solve all the problems in these societies but if the US just stopped exacerbating the problems these societies would at least be livable and that alone would reduce immigration.

The US makes deals with corrupt regimes, so does everybody else. If the US doesn't sell weapons, somebody else will, and so on. Are you asking for the US to enforce "good governance" around the world? That's where it failed mostly, at least in recent times.

Those countries are set up to fail.

The IMF doesn't set up countries to fail, it just wants its money back. It's not a charity. If developing countries are so convinced of their own credit worthiness, they can set up their own IMF.

This does not contradict my claims that US neoliberal intervention is partly responsible for the disastrous conditions that are impelling migration.

I think that the fact that Haiti had to pay 21 billion dollars (and interest) over 147 years was probably significant in terms of reducing Haitian economic development.

Everything is "partly responsible" for everything or "probably signficant " in terms of everything . It's still largely irrelevant in the great scheme of things.

[Sivad]

The US makes deals with corrupt regimes, so does everybody else. If the US doesn't sell weapons, somebody else will, and so on. Are you asking for the US to enforce "good governance" around the world? That's where it failed mostly, at least in recent times.

I want my country to conduct itself honorably and ethically. The US has never enforced good governance, the US enforces submission to private capital. If the US ever did attempt to enforce good governance it would be wildly successful at it due to its enormous power and influence.

The IMF doesn't set up countries to fail, it just wants its money back.

It doesn't want it's money back, it wants countries drowning in debt so they're more vulnerable to corporate looting.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I see that we have reached the point in the thread where you give up on making argumnets and go straight to the ad hominems.

Please try to remain courteous and respectful to other users of the forums at all times and avoid making personally directed attacks on any other user.

Where did I give an ad-hominem? I gave a dismissal to your non-arguments, because they weren't arguments, they were complaints.

Quit acting like a moderator or I will be forced to assume you are trying to impersonate one.

[Rugoz]

I don't watch videos, their information content is usually close to zero.

Funny you mention austerity though. The IMF has been far more critical of austerity than the rest of the troika.

I want my country to conduct itself honorably and ethically. The US has never enforced good governance, the US enforces submission to private capital. If the US ever did attempt to enforce good governance it would be wildly successful at it due to its enormous power and influence.

No it wouldn't, because good governance cannot be enforced from the outside.

It doesn't want it's money back, it wants countries drowning in debt so they're more vulnerable to corporate looting.

Wrong. It does want its money back. It usually advocates hair cuts, as long as its own money isn't part of it of course.

[Sivad]

Funny you mention austerity though. The IMF has been far more critical of austerity than the rest of the troika.

Yeah, it finally admitted what everyone knew for decades, and for some reason it still requires those same SAPs as a condition for lending.