Illiteracy rate in Palestine one of the lowest in the world - Page 6 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14948001
@Verv

However, we have issues with Hamas as they are Islamist.


Palestinians didn't vote for the Hamas. The Hamas were placed there by a joint operation with the CIA and Mossad.

I think there is a sort of chink in your armor on this... If Palestinians readily and eagerly accept that they are Arabs, why is integration into Egypt or Jordan such a terrible idea?


Because A. they don't identify with Pan-Arabism; just because you're Arab doesn't mean that you're a Pan-Arabist by default and B. most Arab countries don't want them.

And I swear we used to have people angered whenever War Angel or whomever would post the old book clippings & reports that identified people in the Palestinian province as Jordanians in the East, Egyptians in the West, with a smattering of Jewish people


Because most of those clippings are either false or not corroborated by legitimate sources. It's like me getting a clipping of old American racial investigations of immigrants and saying that this is proof that Jewish people are inferior to whites. It's very outdated and very, very wrong. Also I would like to know exactly why the pro-Israel camp is angered by proof of Palestine's existence through money and administrative papers.

It's actually very integral to a lot of their claims and sympathies that they are decidedly Palestinians before anything else, and that whatever associations that they have with Arabs are minimal and this is more like saying "French people happen to be Europeans" as opposed to the new mode where people are Europeans before they are anything else.


Yes it is and that's what they believe in. Palestinians are the most anti-Pan-Arabism peoples in the Middle East.

IDK, quite an interesting talking point, Ozy, and what would be the best possible outcome of this thread is if people talked about this at length because, I assure you, the "illiteracy to literacy" angle is stupid.


Dude, this is just positive news about Palestine and I posted this because there is rarely positive news about Palestine. It was never intended to be political, you, along with all the posters on this thread, made it political.

(3) Nobody can help the Palestinians because their position is untenable. If their lot rises in the world it'll be only because a huge amount of time has passed and literally everybody & theri grandma gets to be a postmodern consumerista, and then you can go and march in Palestine Pride with them and tell us about how sweet the victory is, Comrade.


Westerners can't help Palestine because they are both too far from the action to cause some meaningful change and because they quite literally can't do anything to cause meaningful change. All they can do is spread information. Furthermore, Israel will cease to exist by itself due to itself and I have already proven this with legitimate sources (of which no one in this thread has provided an argument against) citing both their reliance on foreign aid of both Palestine and themselves and their declining agricultural industry (probably resulting in them being even more reliant on foreign aid and imports) as proof of this.
#14948025
@Drlee

Yeah man, because posting about the status of Israel, it's decline in agricultural production, it's reliance on foreign aid both to it and Palestine for a majority of it's GDP, giving Palestinians food by the calories, and Israel's involvement in the creation of the Hamas while also posting evidence which, once again, hasn't been effectively argued against both by you and other users, is trolling.

You seem to think that anyone who says anything you dislike or feel uncomfortable about is trolling. Grow some skin you snowflake.
#14948026
Drlee wrote:Israel is not the enemy of Palestine. Not by a long shot.


:lol:

Israel is militarily occupying Palestine, continuing to build settlements on Palestinian territory and stealing more land otherwise, imprisoning millions of Palestinians and killing Palestinians very regularly, including Christian Palestinians. 180+ protesters in concentration camp Gaza have been killed since March. Six Palestinians were killed in the last week. You as usual don't have a clue on this issue, but act like a smug know-it-all regardless, which is amusing to observe at least.

Verv wrote:
I think that it doesn't make that much sense to call it apartheid


Last edited by skinster on 21 Sep 2018 23:36, edited 1 time in total.
#14948035
Oxy. Post some credible evidence or stop trolling for your government. What do they pay you?

As for the baseless shit about Israel in this thread. I am tired of simply anti-Semites. They are so passe.

Do try to remember kiddies that Israel is controlling Palestine because some Arab countries decided to attack what Israel without provocation. Why not whine about Russia Oxy. They took more land from your country than it has left. But loosing wars is its special gift.

It is amazing how whiny some ME countries can get when confronted by a country with balls.

The so-called Palestinians should just go home to Jordan. Oh wait. They can't. Jordan does not want them back.

Idiots.
#14948041
Drlee wrote:As for the baseless shit about Israel in this thread. I am tired of simply anti-Semites.
Being against Israel is not anti-Semitism. You're making your argument fall apart when you turn to this sort of rhetoric just to shut down discussion.

Israel is occupying Palestine. This is fact.
#14948045
Drlee wrote:As for the baseless shit about Israel in this thread. I am tired of simply anti-Semites. They are so passe.


What's passé is calling critics of Israeli brutality antisemitic. If you knew even a single thing about this issue beyond the propaganda you quite clearly have eaten up, it's Israeli policy itself that's antisemitic, since newsflash: Palestinians are Semites and treated as second-class citizens - at best - in their own land.

But spare us this bullshit that you're upset about the made-up racism you've fallen for, when you shill for a state that's systematically racist. Israel is a racist state.

Plenty of Jews oppose it for that reason, try reading a book by at least one of them. A list you can begin with: Noam Chomsky, Norman Finkelstein, Ilan Pappe, Max Blumenthal, David, Sheen, Dan Cohen, Eli Valley, Jonathan Cook, Uri Avnery, Edward Herman, William Blum, Ronnie Barkan, Michael Rosen, Medea Benjamin, Ariel Gold, Stanley Cohen, Yasha Levine, Ben Ehrenreich, Aaron Mate, Tali Shapiro, Andrew Epstein, Katie Halper, David Mizner, Glenn Greenwald, this list can go on for ages.

Do try to remember kiddies that Israel is controlling Palestine because some Arab countries decided to attack what Israel without provocation.


Grandpa isn't down with the program that what you're stating here is propaganda, exposed by Miko Peled, the son of an Israeli General of the 1967 land-grab via the Israeli army archives of the meetings between Israeli generals during that time.
#14948052
(1) I do not know how to respond to the idea that Israelis an apartheid state -- mostly because I think apartheid is a political categorization. South Africa literally had a system of racial discrimination within a single state. Here, we have two separate states in existence, that are usually in conflict with one another, and I am aware that we can play some funny business about autonomy, but generally speaking Palestinians have their own nation where they are given primacy.

I do not find that convincing as 'apartheid.' I am not interested in watching a video about it right now but if you would like to throw some text in my direction, that would be cool. I have like half a dozen friends who want me to watch YouTube videos and while this was generally tolerable back when I was a drunk, it grows quite tedious to me -- I am not saying that your YT video is garbage, Skinster, I am merely saying that I do not like watching YT that much and would prefer text.

(2) The idea that Hamas was installed by a joint Israel / USA operation isn't something that I should be forced to acknowledge, Oxy, unless you actually prove that. This is basically a conspiracy theory -- if your ideas do not work without depending on a conspiracy theory, and you aren't totally able to begin proving that conspiracy theory, it's you who are at a loss, and not your audience.

I'll not even bother telling you that the truth value of this claim is exceedingly dubious because I do not want to dwell on it at all.

I am just curious what you would say if this conspiracy wasn't true, or if you will take the time to defend this position.

(3) It's not racist to say that Palestinians were generally Egyptians & Jordanians prior to the foundation of Israel.

It could theoretically just be entirely factual.

Indeed, some of the initial propaganda pins against Israeli settelemnt talked about them as Jordanians living there explicitly.

The argument goes that Jordan & Egypt only recognize them a sdifferent ethnicities because they know that nobody will give a shit about the problem if the argument is "We're upset that Jordan & Egypt lost some of its land."

It is only persuasive if "Palestinian" is an independent identity and ethnicity that is currently not represented anywhere in the world. It kind of works, then.

Doesn't really work for the Kurds that much but, hey, there are some people in the West sympathetic with the idea of a Kurdish homeland.

It's a really brilliant chess move.

That is why I tell white Americans that htey need to start identifying as an ethnicity.
#14948063
Verv wrote:(1) I do not know how to respond to the idea that Israelis an apartheid state -- mostly because I think apartheid is a political categorization. South Africa literally had a system of racial discrimination within a single state. Here, we have two separate states in existence, that are usually in conflict with one another, and I am aware that we can play some funny business about autonomy, but generally speaking Palestinians have their own nation where they are given primacy.


I guess your confusion lies with you assuming that Israel and Palestine are two separate states, they are not. Israel is militarily occupying Palestine in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The army controls the people who lack basic human rights. Jews in the land are treated to democratic rule while Palestinians suffer military rule. Inside of Israel proper, that borderless area of land that has a Palestinian population that amounts to 20%, there, those Palestinians have over 50 discriminatory laws against them based on these Palestinians not being Jewish. In Gaza, Israel controls from without, the air, the land and the sea. What goes in, what goes out. But unlike the occupation of the West Bank where zionists rule via the military within, with Gaza, they rule from without, making Gaza a gigantic open air prison. Palestinians have no sovereignty of their land and have not for decades and if you're confused with the role of the PA, it might be helpful to understand it as an org that serves the occupying government rather than it's own people. Because that is the reality on the ground.

Some text.

I do not find that convincing as 'apartheid.' I am not interested in watching a video about it right now but if you would like to throw some text in my direction, that would be cool. I have like half a dozen friends who want me to watch YouTube videos and while this was generally tolerable back when I was a drunk, it grows quite tedious to me -- I am not saying that your YT video is garbage, Skinster, I am merely saying that I do not like watching YT that much and would prefer text.


There are plenty of articles online about Israeli apartheid. I'm surprised the idea that Israel is an apartheid state is even controversial at this point in time. The settlements in the Palestinian territory known as the West Bank are Jewish-only. There are streets where only Jews can walk down in Hebron. There are Jews-only roads in the West Bank too, where Israelis and Palestinians have different colour number-plates based on whether they are goy or not. Jews in Israel are treated to different laws than Palestinians, who elsewhere suffer under military laws (which Jews do not). For fuck sake, as a Jew in Israel you can't marry a non-Jew and vice-versa. That massive wall that eats up Palestinian territory separates Jews and Palestinians, imprisoning one side - you can guess which - or imposing rule with checkpoints and curfews where rules change on a daily basis, which include things like sometimes not allowing you to go through a checkpoint to go to a hospital, see family or go to work.

(2) The idea that Hamas was installed by a joint Israel / USA operation isn't something that I should be forced to acknowledge, Oxy, unless you actually prove that. This is basically a conspiracy theory -- if your ideas do not work without depending on a conspiracy theory, and you aren't totally able to begin proving that conspiracy theory, it's you who are at a loss, and not your audience.


Israel did spawn Hamas and elevate them as a counter to the PLO because it's easier to demonize religious people and make it about that rather than about human rights and justice.

I'll not even bother telling you that the truth value of this claim is exceedingly dubious because I do not want to dwell on it at all.


Sometimes when I find some shit I read to be absurd, I do a little google search myself to see if what I'm reading is actually not bullshit, but just something that I never came across before. You should try that. Everyone should.

(3) It's not racist to say that Palestinians were generally Egyptians & Jordanians prior to the foundation of Israel.

It could theoretically just be entirely factual.


If it is then surely people who say such could include evidence along with their posts, quite easily.
#14948071
@Verv

Next time, can you ping the person you're talking to? I was confused as to exactly who you were talking to when I first began to read your post.

(1) I do not know how to respond to the idea that Israelis an apartheid state -- mostly because I think apartheid is a political categorization. South Africa literally had a system of racial discrimination within a single state. Here, we have two separate states in existence, that are usually in conflict with one another, and I am aware that we can play some funny business about autonomy, but generally speaking Palestinians have their own nation where they are given primacy.


Palestine is not a state. Not only does Israel not recognize Palestine's existence (if it did, then it's actions would be considered war crimes by international law) but Palestine has no sovereignty. Thus, even if we pretend that your definition of apartheid state is correct, Israel is still an apartheid state is not it's own country or at least Israel does not recognize it as so.

I do not find that convincing as 'apartheid.' I am not interested in watching a video about it right now but if you would like to throw some text in my direction, that would be cool. I have like half a dozen friends who want me to watch YouTube videos and while this was generally tolerable back when I was a drunk, it grows quite tedious to me -- I am not saying that your YT video is garbage, Skinster, I am merely saying that I do not like watching YT that much and would prefer text.


Bro, I gave you the English definition of an apartheid. That is text. You simply refuse to believe that it is the definition of an apartheid and decided to make up your own definition. If you didn't, Israel would be, by definition, an apartheid and that makes you uncomfortable and makes you question yourself and you don't like questioning yourself or feeling uncomfortable.

(2) The idea that Hamas was installed by a joint Israel / USA operation isn't something that I should be forced to acknowledge, Oxy, unless you actually prove that. This is basically a conspiracy theory -- if your ideas do not work without depending on a conspiracy theory, and you aren't totally able to begin proving that conspiracy theory, it's you who are at a loss, and not your audience.


https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/ham ... -conflict/

Literally nothing that has come out of my mouth this entire thread has been conspiracy theories unlike a certain set of users who think that Palestine is the reason why a military dictatorship funds it's military and you, who thinks that Palestinians want an ethno-state with no evidence of such a fact.

I'll not even bother telling you that the truth value of this claim is exceedingly dubious because I do not want to dwell on it at all.


Dude, you mentioned it in the first place. You talked about the Hamas when they weren't even relevant to the discussion. Also, I'm not going to stop talking about the Hamas just because you don't want to dwell on it. It'll serve you well to tackle things that'll make you uncomfortable.

I am just curious what you would say if this conspiracy wasn't true, or if you will take the time to defend this position.


I have literally given evidence of it. There is no "or" here but a "is".

(3) It's not racist to say that Palestinians were generally Egyptians & Jordanians prior to the foundation of Israel.


No one said it was racist, just that it was wrong (and it is). You haven't even given evidence of these "clippings". I'm the only one here backing up my own points, it's time you do as well.

It could theoretically just be entirely factual.


Theories here. There is only truth or lies.

Indeed, some of the initial propaganda pins against Israeli settelemnt talked about them as Jordanians living there explicitly.


Then those propaganda pins are wrong. They're probably western propaganda pins as well. Also Jordan didn't exist as a national identity ever in Middle Eastern history so it's erroneous to call anyone who has historically lived in the area as a "Jordanian". Furthermore, those propaganda pins are probably just referencing the Arab Kingdom of Syria which controlled Palestine and even then, it was considered a separate entity unto itself.

The argument goes that Jordan & Egypt only recognize them a sdifferent ethnicities because they know that nobody will give a shit about the problem if the argument is "We're upset that Jordan & Egypt lost some of its land."


1. Jordan literally was in kahoots with Israel and Britain to invade Syria in the guise of a liberator and then become the king of Syria, Jordan, and Palestine:

p. 132

And furthermore, there’s very good scholarship on this that’s come out in Israel now which shows, I think pretty conclusively, that the intervention of the Arab states [into Israel in 1948] was very reluctant, and that it was to a large extent directed not against Israel, but against King Abdullah of Transjordan (what’s now Jordan), who was basically a client ruler for the British. And the Arab states in fact did it because they felt that Abdullah was just a pawn of Britain, and they had good reason to believe that he was assisting the British in reconstructing their imperial system in the region in various ways [Britain had arranged to turn formal administration of Palestine over to the United Nations in May 1948]. It’ll be a hundred years before any of this material enters mainstream American scholarship, I should say—but it’s very good scholarship, and it’s important. FOOTNOTE 63

So anyway, the area that’s now Jordan was being ruled by a British client, and the other Arab states in the region regarded the Jordanian military, quite correctly, as just a British army with kind of a guy with Arab headgear leading them. And they were very much concerned about the fact (which they knew at some level, even if they didn’t know all of the details) that Abdullah and the Zionists were cooperating in a plan to prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state—which in fact did happen, Abdullah and the Zionists did carry out that plan of partitioning the area that was to be the Palestinian state between them. FOOTNOTE 64 And furthermore, Abdullah also had much greater plans of his own: he wanted to take over Syria, and become the king of “Greater Syria.” And there was apparently a plan in which Israel was going to attack Syria, and then Abdullah was going to move into Syria to defend the Syrians and end up afterwards holding the whole pie, by pre-arrangement. Well, that plan never quite got worked out, as history shows—but the other Arab states had wind of it, so then they moved in against Israel to try to block Abdullah’s goals. FOOTNOTE 65


For the scholarship on the Arab states' reasons for intervening against Israel in May 1948, see for example, Eugene L. Rogan and Avi Shlaim, eds., The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948, Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 2001, especially chs. 4 to 8; Avi Shlaim, Collusion across the Jordan: King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine, New York: Columbia University Press, 1988. An excerpt (p. 193)

It was not only popular clamour for intervention, however, but the knowledge that Abdullah would intervene whatever happened that pushed the Arab governments, with Syria at their head, to the brink of war. From a military point of view, the Syrians had no illusions about their ability to handle the job alone. But from a political point of view they continued to see Abdullah as their principal enemy and were impelled to intervene, if only to prevent him from tipping the balance of power in the region against them.


Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, New York: Pantheon, 1987, pp. 119-152. An excerpt (pp. 126, 128-129):

The overriding issue was the revival of the Hashemite plan for a United Arab Kingdom in Greater Syria -- ruled by the Hashemites, supported by the British, and embracing Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, and at least the Arab part of Palestine. . . . [T]he Arab governments were aware of Abdallah's contacts with the Jewish Agency and of his expansionist plans. They tried to persuade him to adopt instead a policy of cooperation with the Arab League. These attempts were without success. For Abdallah, the Greater Syria plan was not only a vision but a concrete political aim to be realized through the efficiency of his own military forces, with British and Zionist support. . . . Although Abdallah continued to be an active member of the Arab League, his real relationships with the Arab states and with Israel became the very opposite of the way they were represented. Officially Israel was the adversary, and the Arab states were his allies. In practice, the roles were reversed. . . .

Philip C. Jessup, acting U.S. ambassador to the U.N. between 1947 and 1952, cast light on the Syrian situation in a report to the secretary of state, in which he concluded that "the real fear . . . is not so much fear of Israel as reason [sic] of the expansion of Transjordan and an increase in Abdallah's prestige in the light of his former Greater Syria ideas. In other words, a fear that a settlement between Israel and Abdallah would only be a stepping stone for the latter -- his next step being attempted expansion into Syria."

Itamar Rabinovitch [later Israeli Ambassador to the U.S.], The Road Not Taken: Early Arab-Israeli Negotiations, New York: Oxford University Press, 1991, especially pp. 171f; Ilan Pappé, The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-51, London: I.B. Tauris, 1992, ch. 4; Ilan Pappé, Britain and the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1948-51, London: Macmillan, 1988; Avi Shlaim, The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World, New York: Norton, 2000, ch. 1. See also footnotes 62 and 64 of this chapter.

On Abdullah's and the Zionists' plan to partition the area that was to have been the Palestinian state, see for example, Yoram Peri, Between Battles and Ballots: Israeli Military in Politics, Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 1983. An excerpt (pp. 58-59):

[Zionist leader Ben-Gurion had] reached a tacit understanding with King Abdullah of Transjordan, which allowed the latter to move into the territories west of the River Jordan, which had been allotted by the 1947 U.N. Partition Plan to the Arab Palestinian state. This would limit the war on at least one front, leading eventually to peace; would absolve Israel from having to rule over about one million Arabs, and would pave the way for Israel to join the Western bloc by colluding with Britain's regional client, Transjordan. The crux of the arrangement was that Jerusalem, intended to be internationalized by the Partition Plan, should be divided between Israel and Transjordan. This plan was not revealed either to the Cabinet nor to the military command.


Avi Shlaim, "Israel and the Arab coalition in 1948," in Eugene L. Rogan and Avi Shlaim, eds., The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948, Cambridge, U.K.: Cambridge University Press, 2001, pp. 79-103. An excerpt (pp. 82, 84):

King Abdullah of Transjordan was driven by a long-standing ambition to make himself the master of Greater Syria which included, in addition to Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestine. King Faruq saw Abdullah's ambition as a direct threat to Egypt's leadership in the Arab world. The rulers of Syria and Lebanon saw in King Abdullah a threat to the independence of their countries and they also suspected him of being in cahoots with the enemy. Each Arab state was moved by its own dynastic or national interests. Arab rulers were as concerned with curbing each other as they were in fighting the common enemy. Under these circumstances it was virtually impossible to reach any real consensus on the means and ends of the Arab intervention in Palestine. Consequently, far from confronting a single enemy with a clear purpose and a clear plan of action, the Yishuv faced a loose coalition consisting of the Arab League, independent Arab states, irregular Palestinian forces, and an assortment of volunteers. The Arab coalition was one of the most divided, disorganized, and ramshackle coalitions in the entire history of warfare. Separate and conflicting national interests were hidden behind the figleaf of securing Palestine for the Palestinians. The Palestine problem was the first major test of the Arab League and the Arab League failed it miserably. The actions of the League were taken ostensibly in support of the Palestinian claim for independence in the whole of Palestine. But the League remained curiously unwilling to allow the Palestinians to assume control over their own destiny. . . .

In 1947, as the conflict over Palestine entered the crucial stage, the contacts between the Jewish side and King Abdullah intensified. Golda Meir of the Jewish Agency had a secret meeting with Abdullah in Naharayim on 17 November 1947. At this meeting they reached a preliminary agreement to coordinate their diplomatic and military strategies, to forestall the mufti, and to endeavor to prevent the other Arab states from intervening directly in Palestine. . . . In return for Abdullah's promise not to enter the area assigned by the U.N. to the Jewish state, the Jewish Agency agreed to the annexation by Transjordan of most of the area earmarked for the Arab state. Precise borders were not drawn and Jerusalem was not even discussed as under the U.N. plan it was to remain a corpus separatum under international control. Nor was the agreement ever put down in writing. The Jewish Agency tried to tie Abdullah down to a written agreement but he was evasive. Yet, according to Yaacov Shimoni, a senior official in the Political Department of the Jewish Agency, despite Abdullah's evasions, the understanding with him was: "entirely clear in its general spirit. We would agree to the conquest of the Arab part of Palestine by Abdullah. We would not stand in his way. We would not help him, would not seize it and hand it over to him. He would have to take it by his own means and stratagems but we would not disturb him. He, for his part, would not prevent us from establishing the state of Israel, from dividing the country, taking our share and establishing a state in it."


See also, Ilan Pappé, The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-51, London: I.B. Tauris, 1992, especially pp. 115-119, 131; Tom Segev, 1949: The First Israelis, New York: Free Press, 1986, pp. 11-15 (brief treatment of the covert relationship between Abdullah and the Zionist leaders); Simha Flapan, Zionism and the Palestinians, New York: Barnes and Noble, 1979, pp. 334-337 (detailing the interactions between Abdullah and the Zionists, including a Memorandum by U.S. Secretary of State Dean Rusk advocating the partition). And see footnote 67 of this chapter.

On Abdullah's plans for Syria and the Arab states' knowledge of them, see for example, Simha Flapan, Zionism and the Palestinians, New York: Barnes and Noble, 1979. An excerpt (pp. 331-332, 328):

[A Syrian report to the U.S. ambassador indicates that Syrian Foreign Minister Barazi:] "said seemingly fantastic story, now widely believed here, that Abdullah has made deal with the Jews 'not without foundation.' According story Haganah [the Zionist military] will counter-invade Syria after crushing Syrian Army then return quickly to Jewish Palestine as Abdullah rushes to rescue. Abdullah would receive plaudits of grateful Syrian population and crown of Greater Syria. . . . Barazi added Syria would not tolerate Abdullah with his royal airs and his black slaves. . . . [H]e added 'We must invade, otherwise the people will kill us. . . .'"

[The U.S. representative at the U.N. noted that the] real reason for present Syrian extremism is not so much fear of Israel as fear of the expansion of Transjordan and increase in Abdullah's prestige in the light of his former Greater Syrian ideas. In other words a fear that a settlement based on arrangements between Israel and Abdullah would be only a stepping-stone for the latter, his next step being attempted expansion into Syria.


Avi Shlaim, Collusion across the Jordan: King Abdullah, the Zionist Movement, and the Partition of Palestine, New York: Columbia University Press, 1988, especially ch. 5 and p. 193. An excerpt (p. 424):

The Zionist leaders, of course, were well aware of Abdullah's long-standing scheme to make himself the ruler of Greater Syria. They knew about his family history, his thwarted dynastic ambitions, and his longing to break out of Britain's tutelage. They knew of his dream to make Damascus his capital and his feeling that Amman was no substitute -- a spring-board at best. Not only did they understand all this but they also professed themselves to be sympathetic and supportive. No doubt Abdullah's preoccupation with bringing Syria into his domain suited and was exploited by the Zionists as a means of diverting him from the equally burning preoccupation with bringing Palestine into his domain. Nevertheless, the Jewish Agency had always led the amir of Transjordan to believe that it looked with favour on his ambition to conquer Syria, and this was indeed one of the props of the unwritten alliance between the two sides. The Agency did not pledge its active support for the realization of this particular ambition, but it did promise not to stand in his way. An appeal by Abdullah to Israel to lend him military support for the long-awaited march on Damascus was therefore not as bizarre as it might seem at first sight.


Simha Flapan, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, New York: Pantheon, 1987. An excerpt (pp. 151-152):

Even though the Arab Legion was a crack army, it had at most five thousand men and no air force or heavy artillery. It could hardly be expected to defeat the fifty- thousand-strong, well-trained, and well-equipped Haganah. What the Arab states actually feared was that the implementation of Abdallah's secret agreement with Israel would be the first step toward the creation of a Hashemite [Arab royal family] kingdom extending over Syria and Lebanon. This fear explains not only Egypt's intervention -- which was undertaken mainly to foil the plans of Abdallah and his British backers -- but also the overall logic of its military operations. The best of the units, nearly half of the invading force, did not attack Israel. They were sent to the Arab cities of Beersheba, Hebron, and Jerusalem to prevent Abdallah's annexation of these areas, which had been designated for the Palestinian state. The other forces moved along the seacoast northward to Tel Aviv, also in the area designated by the U.N. for the Palestinian state. . . .

Abdallah's first step after occupying Hebron and Bethlehem was to disband and disarm the Palestinian fighting forces and the Egyptians who remained in the area. One week after the signing of the Egyptian armistice, Israel was able to conquer Eilat without firing a single shot.


Itamar Rabinovitch [later Israeli Ambassador to the U.S.], The Road Not Taken: Early Arab-Israeli Negotiations, New York: Oxford University Press, 1991, pp. 15-16; Ilan Pappé, The Making of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, 1947-51, London: I.B. Tauris, 1992, pp. 114, 121. See also footnote 63 of this chapter.

For early acknowledgment of the agreement between Ben-Gurion and Abdullah to partition Palestine, see for example, Jon and David Kimche, A Clash of Destinies: The Arab-Jewish War and the Founding of the State of Israel, New York: Praeger, 1960. An excerpt (p. 60):

[I]n November 1947, Abdullah secretly received Mrs. Golda Myerson as the representative of the Jewish Agency. They discussed the prospects of the resolution to partition Palestine which was then before the United Nations. The King told Mrs. Myerson that he would take over the Arab part of Palestine, for he would not permit another Arab state to be set up; he would then conclude a treaty with the Jewish State. Abdullah foresaw no exceptional difficulties in the way.


Yeah, Jordan, a country that collaborated with Israel, will definitely make up Palestinians as a nationality despite the fact that Israel themselves have considered Palestinians as a distinct nationality in their plans. Also Egypt literally is hostile to Jordan so I have no idea what you're talking about.

Regardless, you need to give proof that Egypt and Jordan made up Palestinians as an ethnicity (despite all forms of propaganda for Palestine asserting them as a nationality). I expect at least 3 citations of legitimate sources and books.

It is only persuasive if "Palestinian" is an independent identity and ethnicity that is currently not represented anywhere in the world. It kind of works, then.


You'd be hard-pressed to find any basis in reality of Palestinians identifying as a race. You can't just make this shit up and expect it to fly. Give some goddamn sources.

Doesn't really work for the Kurds that much but, hey, there are some people in the West sympathetic with the idea of a Kurdish homeland.


So ethnic-nationalism works for the people who aren't an ethnicity (Palestinians) but it doesn't work for the people who do identify as an ethnicity (Kurds)? WTF are you even talking about?

It's a really brilliant chess move.


Ah yes, Arabs, the master manipulators who managed to get fucked over by the British wait a second.

That is why I tell white Americans that htey need to start identifying as an ethnicity.


As if they don't already do that or haven't done that. This cognitive dissonance is astounding.
#14948144
Oxymandias wrote:@Zionist Nationalist

Dude you've never even met an Arab before. Furthermore, I'm pretty sure all Arabs have higher IQs than you'll ever have in a life time.


I have met plenty of Arabs and there are many smart ones but there are many more dumb ones
relative marriege is lowering the average IQ of the population and contributing to the retardation of the society

but its good that you arent willing to admit your problems as long as you keep ignoring it you will stay this way forever and its good for us
please stay dumb
#14948183
You are talking about the apartheid thing as if this exists in a vacuum.

Why it doesn't make sense is clear:

- The two-state solution is on the table, and that is going to be the likely result. The Palestinian Authority largely exists as a separate state and is recognized more or less as having its own political structure, etc.
- The reason that there are Jewish only streets, etc., is because they have to act like they are more or less a different nation, and because there are terror attacks that occur with a pretty high frequency against Israeli people.

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I can almos thear you shouting right now -- sure, the Israelis come and "terrorize" the Palestinians, etc. etc., but at the end of the day you can't blame the Israelis for being better at warfare than you and then taking precautions to protect their citizens from you.

(2) The idea that Jordan would remain allied indefinitely with the Israelis is foolish.

Jordan wants to be a torn in the side of Israel, as the fall of Israel represents opportunities for htem; moreover, they have like infinite population boom all over the M. E.

People are incredibly expendable.

Why would they feel hard pressed to eschew their fellow Jordanians and now call them 'Palestinians?'

Besides, let us remember that national identities can be very fluid -- this is something that the Left normally loves! But suddenly, they are suspicious of it in this argument.

A good example of fluidity is the Iraqi city of Mosul -- they are Arabs, just like anywhere, and they are 'Iraqis,' and few people question that, but there are a lot of narratives which have the people of Mosul traditionally not identifying as Iraqis at all, but having stronger ties to Syria, and, moreover, many of them were quite proud Ottomans...

If the identities of Iraqis can be this malleable, it makes sense to em that the Palestinian identity can easily be pulled out of thin air.

Just as such, it would be quite easy to create a Minnesota identity, or an Upper Midwest identity, because people can choose to assert that their differences are greater or lesser than they are toward whatever end they want with little effort if it has a tangible benefit for them and there is an agreed upon strategy at play.
#14948189
Verv wrote:The two-state solution is on the table, and that is going to be the likely result.


:lol:
No it's not on the table. Likud, Nethanyahu's government that controls of Palestine, declared there would never be a Palestinian state. The two-state solution can't happen because there is close to a million illegal settlers living in illegal Jewish-only settlements in the occupied West Bank, which was to be part of the Palestinian state. Those illegal settlers won't be removed by the state which has spent billions on settlements for them to live in, including billions more on the occupying military force that controls everyone there.

The Palestinian Authority largely exists as a separate state and is recognized more or less as having its own political structure, etc.


The PA does Israel's dirty work as a sub-contractor. If it served its people, we would know about it.

- The reason that there are Jewish only streets, etc., is because they have to act like they are more or less a different nation, and because there are terror attacks that occur with a pretty high frequency against Israeli people.


The Jewish-only streets are in what is internationally recognized as Palestinian territory and they're there not because of terrorism - since that's committed by Israeli settlers' presence alone there - but because Israel is a racist state, in practice and theory. At least you're coming to accept that apartheid is a thing in Israel, some progress. :D

Oh yeah, oh yeah, I can almos thear you shouting right now -- sure, the Israelis come and "terrorize" the Palestinians, etc. etc., but at the end of the day you can't blame the Israelis for being better at warfare than you and then taking precautions to protect their citizens from you.


You
can't. Normal people see Israel for the genocidal settler state that it is. All the information is out there, online and you can go and see for yourself too, what you support. You can play dumb to this shit and support white supremacy in an Arab country, but you can't pretend you didn't know, since, as I said, all the information is already out here.

And the Israeli terrorism you refer to is that which differs from the state, but is the everyday acts of violence against Palestinians by illegal settlers:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... lestinians

(2) The idea that Jordan would remain allied indefinitely with the Israelis is foolish.


Most recently Jordan have been arming and training Islamists fighting war on secular Syria, alongside their ally Israel. I say more recently, but it remains a thing today.
#14948209
Normal people see Israel for the genocidal settler state that it is.


Nonsense.

Normal people know it is nothing of the sort. Normal people know that the so-called Palestinians are largely an invention in the first place. Normal people know that Israel fought a war of survival against nations that continue to insist that they be annihilated as in the quote from Iran's dictator that I posted above.

Normal people are simply tired of disgruntled Islamist's pounding their chests and shouting death to the enemy du jeor. They are blind to the fact that they do have an enemy. It is themselves and their cowardice in the face of the real oppressors. The states of the region who insist on distracting them with Israel.
#14948219
Drlee wrote:Nonsense.


What's nonsense is you saying "Nonsense" while being completely willfully ignorant about what is the very short history of the zionist war on Palestine, that is ongoing. Since you bring that grandpa-smugness with you regularly, I'll point that by the sound of your age, it's possible you're older than Israel. Why not read up about it? Maybe even see what churches in your own country are saying about divesting from and boycotting Israel while it continues its war crimes on Palestine? Are your fellow Christians nonsensical too? What about all the Jews who write against zionism? Are they self-loathing for hating a racist ideology? :lol:

Normal people know it is nothing of the sort.


Why is it that there are people in the streets for Palestine whenever Israel conducts Operation Ethnic Cleansing? I don't mean Middle Eastern countries, I mean here in the West. In the countries both of us live in.


Normal people know that the so-called Palestinians are largely an invention in the first place.


Only a complete moron believes this. Early zionists who created/ran the country at the beginning (1948) didn't even claim the natives were an "invention". They did write a lot about what to do with them though, how to expel them from the land so they could have it all. It's all out there. If you struggle with search engines, I can share plenty.

Normal people know that Israel fought a war of survival against nations that continue to insist that they be annihilated


Thanks again for displaying how you drank the zionist koolaid. Israel wasn't fighting a war of survival, Israel was making war based on opportunity, in order to steal the rest of Palestine that wasn't offered to Israel in the Balfour Agreement, and so, take all of Palestine. This is recorded in the meetings of Israeli Generals who fought that war, and written about by the son of one of them. I already posted about that ITT. Why keep repeating this bullshit after it's been called out for the propaganda it is? Are you not here to learn? If you disagree, prove how.

Normal people are simply tired of disgruntled Islamist's pounding their chests and shouting death to the enemy du jeor. They are blind to the fact that they do have an enemy. It is themselves and their cowardice in the face of the real oppressors. The states of the region who insist on distracting them with Israel.


This isn't about other states in the region, even though people like you try to point elsewhere in an attempt to get off topic, as if that's not always obvious. Israel is a genocidal state that you shill for and you get upset that people everywhere - including within your own government now - speak up about it. You're dumb enough to believe Israel is a victim in this scenario while holding all the power and on video every Friday murdering Palestinian children for the crime of protesting the concentration-camp-like conditions Israel has forced them to live in. So, I guess nothing is going to change with you anyway, but please, try bringing some facts into this debate in future, instead of your shit opinion. I've posted a number of sources on this board to prove what's going on in Palestine, so if you need anything for anything said above, just ask. It's really easy to find. Even though my guess is you're not really interested in the truth; it appears as though it's hard for you to shake off that decades of propaganda you've been fed on this issue. Sad!
#14948231
Yes. As usual you completely ignore the post I made directly quoting the dictator in Iran calling for the annihilation of Israel.

Enough of your propaganda.

Who is paying you?
#14948235
That's all you have? :lol:

I was correct, you're not here to learn.

Drlee wrote:Yes. As usual you completely ignore the post I made directly quoting the dictator in Iran calling for the annihilation of Israel.


Completely? I responded to all the on-topic stuff. Also, in the post above:

I wrote:This isn't about other states in the region, even though people like you try to point elsewhere in an attempt to get off topic, as if that's not always obvious.


Enough of your propaganda.


Quote what is propaganda and prove how it is.

Who is paying you?


Unfortunately you don't get paid to support Palestinian human rights. However, you can get paid to hasbara online for Israel, there is a lot of that going on and sometimes I wonder if I could sell my soul to do that in favour of zionism, since I'm sure I'd be much better at it than some of the sorry lot on this board. :lol:

https://ifamericaknew.org/ - get into it, you're never too old to learn the truth about life, Drlee.
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