[Hindsite]

I don’t wonder. I know why he got elected. Racism + Russia + Ignorance and a sprinkle of Misogyni.

Sounds like the perfect combination. Praise the Lord.

[Albert]

I don’t wonder. I know why he got elected. Racism + Russia + Ignorance and a sprinkle of Misogyni.

Yep, that is it.

[Godstud]

@One Degree From your source:

This raise -- made up of base pay and automatic, seniority-based pay -- topped last year's average increase by 0.35 percentage point, the first such growth in three years.

Incidentally:
Why Mass Migration Is Good for Long-Term Economic Growth
And yet overall our evidence(a study done- so facts) suggests that immigration-fueled diversity is good for economic growth. The main recommendation that political leaders and organizational practitioners can take away from these findings is to increase openness to workers from as many origins as possible, to reap the large benefits of having an increased range of skills, ideas, and innovative solutions.
https://hbr.org/2017/04/why-mass-migrat ... mic-growth

[Albert]

^







lol

[Godstud]

Yes, don't let facts get in the way of your delusional beliefs.

[Potemkin]

We didn't do this though it is a common meme.

Actually, you did. Link: Guatemalan Civil War. Does the name 'United Fruit Company' ring a bell?

And neither has the US unduly exploited the developing world. We invented the modern world. We are rich. They are not. Of course it would be difficult for them to keep up.

America did not accumulate this wealth in splendid isolation from the rest of the world. Capitalism is, and has always been, a global system.

I am tired of people accusing us of exploitation when it is our money in these countries that keeps them afloat at all. I was in Guatemala in 1969. If you think it was some kind of happy, sleepy land that time forgot you are delusional. It was a shit hole. 60% of children died before the age of 6. We (Americans) went there to save their lives by providing medical care. We Americans built the few health clinics they had. We Americans shipped in tons of medicine and food that they would otherwise not have. We educated their doctors, trained and equipped their military and protected them. Yes we bought shit from them. Stuff they could not sell for hard currency at home.

We have to get off this "backed a dictator" shit. It is a non-issue. We are not responsible for the reprehensible conditions in these countries. I saw it first hand. The corruption, even out in the sticks where my clinic was bred oppression even 50 years ago.

The CIA overthrew a democratically elected left-wing leader in Guatemala in 1954, and then provided material and logistical aid to a succession of genocidal reactionary dictators for the next 40 years.

I would like to see the third world rely on the kind and benevolent Russian aid they so desire.

You think the Russians didn't build schools and hospitals in Afghanistan? Lol.

And my solutions are not cruel. I am pointing out the duplicity on the right. They profess to hate the chickens but the can't do without the eggs.

This is the one part of your post with which I agree.

[One Degree]

I don’t wonder. I know why he got elected. Racism + Russia + Ignorance and a sprinkle of Misogyni.

You wouldn’t happen to be another expert on the US who has never been here would you?

[One Degree]

@One Degree From your source:


Incidentally:
Why Mass Migration Is Good for Long-Term Economic Growth
And yet overall our evidence(a study done- so facts) suggests that immigration-fueled diversity is good for economic growth. The main recommendation that political leaders and organizational practitioners can take away from these findings is to increase openness to workers from as many origins as possible, to reap the large benefits of having an increased range of skills, ideas, and innovative solutions.
https://hbr.org/2017/04/why-mass-migrat ... mic-growth

Yes Godstud, immigration is great for profits by holding wages down. This is why capitalism is considered the enemy of the workers. Are you a 1950’s Republican now?

[Godstud]

There's nothing wrong with being a 1950's Republican, is there? The 1950 republicans were pretty liberal, btw.

1950 Republican platform:
On federal assistance to low-income communities, the 1956 platform said the party would "promote fully the Republican-sponsored Rural Development Program to broaden the operation and increase the income of low income farm families and help tenant farmers."

On protecting Social Security, the platform touted the Eisenhower administration’s extension of Social Security to 10 million more workers and benefits hikes for 6.5 million Americans.

On refugees, the platform spotlighted the administration’s work in sponsoring the Refugee Relief Act "to provide asylum for thousands of refugees, expellees and displaced persons," promising its "wholehearted support" for additional efforts. M. Christine Anderson, a Xavier University historian, noted that many refugees were coming from communist countries in Eastern Europe, so this wasn't an especially controversial issue during the Cold War era.

On the minimum wage, the platform notes that the Eisenhower administration raised the minimum wage for more than 2 million workers. It urged extending minimum-wage protections "to as many more workers as is possible and practicable."

On improving the unemployment benefit system, the 1956 platform touted the administration’s actions to bring unemployment insurance to 4 million additional workers, and backed efforts to "improve the effectiveness of the unemployment insurance system."

On strengthening unions, the platform says the "protection of the right of workers to organize into unions and to bargain collectively is the firm and permanent policy of the Eisenhower Administration."

That’s full-throated rhetoric in support of unions -- but the policy reality is a bit more nuanced, said Jennifer Delton, a Skidmore College historian and author of Rethinking the 1950s. The platform did not support unions’ key agenda item that year -- a repeal of states’ ability to pass "right to work" laws that would ban compulsory union membership.

On equal pay for equal work regardless of sex, the platform says the Eisenhower administration will "continue to fight … (to) assure equal pay for equal work regardless of sex."

[XogGyux]

You wouldn’t happen to be another expert on the US who has never been here would you?

Does the address of my domicile make any difference on the strength of my arguments? If I live in the US argument really good, if I live in puerto rico moderately good argument and if I am in guatemala it is a weak argument?
Tell me please, I want to understand how low truly is your understanding of logic and reason.

[Drlee]

@Drlee
I didn’t bother reading past ‘the states with highest immigration has the highest minimum wage.’

You think this defeats my argument? How is that?

General statement you can either embrace and own or reject.

Illegal immigrants are here to stay. There are some 30 million of them in the country and if they were all magically deported tomorrow the economy would collapse. I would defy you to find a credible economist to dispute this.

The Trumpets are being sold a bill of goods here. The part of the equation, which deliberately stops enforcement at the border, that they do not understand is that Trump's policies leave these 30 million alone. So lets go with the right wing argument for a moment. IF what they say about immigrants driving down wages is true, then it is because they are willing to work for very little; certainly less than citizens are. OK. Look at two farm workers. One is illegal and one is not. You say the illegal is driving down the wages of the legal worker. Fine. So why is that? These two workers do the same job every day for the same pay but you blame the illegal worker for the low wages. OK. What happens to the wages of the illegal worker if you take away the legal worker? They go up. The illegal makes more money. Simple supply and demand. He can demand more. But wait. He does not have the option to move to some other place in the economy where his illegal status is likely to get him busted. What happens to the wages of both workers if you grant the illegal amnesty and allow him to freely move throughout the job market? He challenges other jobs held by citizens. The price of back-breaking farm work goes up and other sectors may go down.

At the end of the day, it is the illegal status of the worker that is the key. They have become a virtual slave category. Though they are free to leave (if you call likely starvation of their family freedom) they are stuck in jobs that offer no advancement and in many cases pay no significant income taxes. When they do pay payroll taxes, their social security contributions do not accrue to themselves because they are intelligible to receive the benefits.

OneDegree "stops reading" as soon as his beliefs are challenged. That is typical of the right these days. They can't be bothered to think past the Fox News talking points. So they allow themselves to be moved by mere rhetoric with no substance.

Let's see if they have stopped reading when I post this:

There is already no automatic birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens. The 14th amendment does not extend that to them. It was designed specifically for slaves born in the US. How do I know? The SCOTUS denied citizenship to a Native American based on birthright holding that the NA owed his loyalty to his tribe and not the US. Indeed, it was not until 1924 that Native Americans were granted citizenship at all. Clearly those here illegally cannot prove that they "owe allegiance to the United States of America and are subject to its jurisdiction". They can assert it, as did Elk, but they cannot prove it. In fact, illegal aliens retain their citizenship of whatever country from which they came so it is an open question as to whether they are "subject to its jurisdiction". Certainly they are in some (if not most) cases because of treaty with the US.

The only supreme court ruling touching on this was United States v. Wong Kim Ark. This person was denied reentry to the US even though born here. This decision did not hinge on his being born here but rather on the fact that his parents were here legally and therefor "subject to.....".

We have a very conservative court right now. Should Trump challenge the notion of birthright citizenship it is just possible that he may prevail. I don't think he would but a very good argument could be made. It would go something like this. .....The child was not born to parents who were "subject to its complete jurisdiction" of the US and that the evidence of this is that they came here despite our laws prohibiting it and they remain in hiding from the complete jurisdiction of the government.

Wonder if the far right wingers stopped reading that.....

[One Degree]

Does the address of my domicile make any difference on the strength of my arguments? If I live in the US argument really good, if I live in puerto rico moderately good argument and if I am in guatemala it is a weak argument?
Tell me please, I want to understand how low truly is your understanding of logic and reason.

If you have never been to the US, then your information is from the media. This appears to be what your posts are based on, so I was curious. The US in the media is not the US.

@Drlee
When your introduction contradicts your argument there is no need to read further. You seem to acknowledge what I said but then go into lengthy descriptions which seem to have no purpose other than to say we should continue with a globalist view of putting illegals before country and it’s citizens. Trump (maybe) and his supporters (definitely)reject this position outright so it is not an argument.

[skinster]

Does the name 'United Fruit Company' ring a bell?

America did not accumulate this wealth in splendid isolation from the rest of the world. Capitalism is, and has always been, a global system.

The CIA overthrew a democratically elected left-wing leader in Guatemala in 1954, and then provided material and logistical aid to a succession of genocidal reactionary dictators for the next 40 years.

The sad thing is Drlee, like a lot of Americans, believe their own myths, even while we have everything we ever want to learn, at our fingertips. It wouldn't matter if it didn't affect the rest of us so incredibly negatively, but here we are.

It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening.

[One Degree]

The harm of immigration is done to the American workers, not the government. The workers don’t owe reparations for past crimes.

[Potemkin]

The sad thing is Drlee, like a lot of Americans, believe their own myths, even while we have everything we ever want to learn, at our fingertips. It wouldn't matter if it didn't affect the rest of us so incredibly negatively, but here we are.

It never happened. Nothing ever happened. Even while it was happening it wasn't happening.

The astounding part of is that Drlee was there even while it was happening, and seems to have noticed nothing. Drlee genuinely seems to care about people and seems to have genuinely made an effort to help people throughout his life, but seems to have understood nothing he saw and experienced. It's actually a tragedy.

[skinster]

The astounding part of is that Drlee was there even while it was happening, and seems to have noticed nothing. Drlee genuinely seems to care about people and seems to have genuinely made an effort to help people throughout his life, but seems to have understood nothing he saw and experienced. It's actually a tragedy.

Even when you put things / the evidence to his attention, he will argue against it or ignore it. He has certain beliefs and nothing, not even evidence against them, will change them. For example, I'm sure if we put here the declassified documents proving the CIA's dirty work in Guatemala - or Iran the year before - to Drlee's attention, he would continue to deny the US had anything to do with anything.

Not to sound ageist, but it usually happens that people that are older just get stuck in their ways and expecting much from them as far as change or an open mind, is expecting more than you'll ever get. I'm reminded of this regularly from my mother . Anyway, it's a wonder why he even bothers here at all, since I figured most people came here to learn.

[Potemkin]

Even when you put things / the evidence to his attention, he will argue against it or ignore it. He has certain beliefs and nothing, not even evidence against them, will change them. For example, I'm sure if we put here the declassified documents proving the CIA's dirty work in Guatemala - or Iran the year before - to Drlee's attention, he would continue to deny the US had anything to do with anything.

Not to sound ageist, but it usually happens that people that are older just get stuck in their ways and expecting much from them as far as change or an open mind, is expecting more than you'll ever get. I'm reminded of this regularly from my mother . Anyway, it's a wonder why he even bothers here at all, since I figured most people came here to learn.

I don't think it's just his age - his eyes and ears seem to have been closed even back in the 1960s and 70s. His efforts to help people were actually being used against the very people he was trying to help by the CIA and their puppets in the Guatemalan military:

The Social Consequences of "Development" Aid in Guatemala

In the rural areas, government security forces and their associated "death squads" kidnapped, tortured, and murdered anyone associated with rural development activities. Their victims, according to a recent survey of North American relief, religious, and development workers, also included members of local reconstruction and social betterment committees, leaders of community organizations, officers of cooperatives, credit unions, and artists' groups, Christian Democratic mayors, school teachers, catechists and pastors, rural health-care workers, and even members of local Alcoholics Anonymous groups. The rural cooperative movement, which was financed by US AID, was particularly hard hit by the government's program of political violence. "The newly founded government ministry for co-ops, INACOOP," one informant who was close to the ministry said, "was no more than a front for collecting names of the most active (and dedicated) people in the community - people who would later be eliminated."

[Drlee]

Sigh. I'll just let it go.

Yes I was there. Yes I saw bad stuff. Montenegro was not boy scout. Yes I treated the guerillas in my clinic without alerting my Policia National guards.

You read about stuff. You did not live it. Claiming that I was blind because of what the CIA may or may not have been doing is absurd. NEITHER OF YOU know what the CIA is doing right now, on your watch. I hope that someday some young person calls you blind of senile because you do not have a deep understanding of what is happening right now, under your noses.

Now be good youngsters and go back and read my post. I did not excuse anything the US did. I simply maintain that it does not amount to an open invitation to any economic migrants who want to move here. It is tantamount to blaming the inquisition for modern Catholicism.

Some day I will tell you what I knew and when about AIDS. That will give you fodder for blaming African governments for atrocities for a decade.

I am not sorry that I do not believe that the US is responsible for all of the ills in the world. I believe that the good the US has done has overwhelmingly outweighed the evil. Skinster would have had a gay old time if she were in Germany when the Red Army took over. She would have been running toward the nearest US infantryman like her life depended on it. Because it would have.

[XogGyux]

If you have never been to the US, then your information is from the media. This appears to be what your posts are based on, so I was curious. The US in the media is not the US.

@Drlee
When your introduction contradicts your argument there is no need to read further. You seem to acknowledge what I said but then go into lengthy descriptions which seem to have no purpose other than to say we should continue with a globalist view of putting illegals before country and it’s citizens. Trump (maybe) and his supporters (definitely)reject this position outright so it is not an argument.

Stop making vague claims and senseless accusations and present evidence and logical argument. The place where someone lives or someone is born has absolutely no effect on whether that person's argument is consistent, valid or sound. If you spot a flaw that you think is valid on my argument, bring it on. If you think my facts are somehow inaccurate, bring it on, attacking my character or motives is a fallacy and just points towards the fact that you have no understanding on how to properly discuss and debate a topic and how logic works.

[skinster]

Sigh. I'll just let it go.

lol

You read about stuff. You did not live it. Claiming that I was blind because of what the CIA may or may not have been doing is absurd.

NEITHER OF YOU know what the CIA is doing right now, on your watch. I hope that someday some young person calls you blind of senile because you do not have a deep understanding of what is happening right now, under your noses.

Actually, I've been making noise about Operation Timber Sycamore lately, which is ongoing, if by another name, about US interference in Venezuela's democracy, in Cuba, in Iran, in Libya, etc.

Nobody called you senile, I said you were stuck in your ways. But you are willfully ignorant.

Now be good youngsters and go back and read my post. I did not excuse anything the US did. I simply maintain that it does not amount to an open invitation to any economic migrants who want to move here. It is tantamount to blaming the inquisition for modern Catholicism.

No it's not. Your government and its deep state orgs creates the conditions for people to leave their homes elsewhere. Your government is beyond responsible for its actions.

Some day I will tell you what I knew and when about AIDS. That will give you fodder for blaming African governments for atrocities for a decade.

lol wat.

I am not sorry that I do not believe that the US is responsible for all of the ills in the world. I believe that the good the US has done has overwhelmingly outweighed the evil. Skinster would have had a gay old time if she were in Germany when the Red Army took over. She would have been running toward the nearest US infantryman like her life depended on it. Because it would have.

Who said the US is responsible for everything? I didn't. I didn't read Potemkin say the same. We talked about specific things, which you'd rather ignore over playing victim and rambling on about some other stuff that I'll basically ignore.

Here is a list of the countries your country has overthrown or tried to, since WW2 (your lifetime). It was written by an American who sadly may be dying now, but he is one who thinks. It's not to late to learn, Drlee:

China 1949 to early 1960s
Albania 1949-53
East Germany 1950s
Iran 1953 *
Guatemala 1954 *
Costa Rica mid-1950s
Syria 1956-7
Egypt 1957
Indonesia 1957-8
British Guiana 1953-64 *
Iraq 1963 *
North Vietnam 1945-73
Cambodia 1955-70 *
Laos 1958 *, 1959 *, 1960 *
Ecuador 1960-63 *
Congo 1960 *
France 1965
Brazil 1962-64 *
Dominican Republic 1963 *
Cuba 1959 to present
Bolivia 1964 *
Indonesia 1965 *
Ghana 1966 *
Chile 1964-73 *
Greece 1967 *
Costa Rica 1970-71
Bolivia 1971 *
Australia 1973-75 *
Angola 1975, 1980s
Zaire 1975
Portugal 1974-76 *
Jamaica 1976-80 *
Seychelles 1979-81
Chad 1981-82 *
Grenada 1983 *
South Yemen 1982-84
Suriname 1982-84
Fiji 1987 *
Libya 1980s
Nicaragua 1981-90 *
Panama 1989 *
Bulgaria 1990 *
Albania 1991 *
Iraq 1991
Afghanistan 1980s *
Somalia 1993
Yugoslavia 1999-2000 *
Ecuador 2000 *
Afghanistan 2001 *
Venezuela 2002 *
Iraq 2003 *
Haiti 2004 *
Somalia 2007 to present
Honduras 2009 *
Libya 2011 *
Syria 2012
Ukraine 2014 *

https://williamblum.org/essays/read/ove ... aster-list