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By layman
#14970949
I don’t think the eu,s heels are especially digged in. They offered us multiple options with natural conditions.

The only harshness has come from individual country’s seeking local advantage but that is to be expected as its always been the way. Not least from the uk itself.

My guess is that this country won’t reverse. Partly due to pride and partly due to the sunk cost fallacy.

@Rugoz the eu wouldn’t allow any negotiations before article 50 for this reason. They knew they would gain leverage and they knew may could only delay so long due to the impatient dotards that are the Tory Brexiteers.
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By Potemkin
#14970952
Beren wrote:Irish deputy PM says backstop remains anyway, so I wonder how the deal could be significantly improved.

Could May's strategy be that the harder her deal is voted down the more concessions she can get? :eh:

I am not sure if which one is worse, the vandalism in Paris or the circus in London.

The circus in London, because that circus is in power. The vandals are on the streets in Paris, but in London they are at the heart of political authority.
By Rich
#14970957
The dishonesty and lack of integrity of the Brexiteers is breath taking. An honest "Leave means leave!" campaign would explicitly demand that we withdraw from the Good Friday Agreement. Implicit within the GFA was that Britain and Eire would stay with the EU or leave together. It should be remembered that part of the motivation for entering World War I was to put off the Irish issue.
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By Godstud
#14970968
Enjoy!
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By JohnRawls
#14970980
Lol at the pound hitting 1.10 to Euro. It is very close to the historic minimum? I wonder where a no deal Brexit will send it. :lol:
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By Nonsense
#14970991
Apparently, MAY is attempting to kick-the-can-down-the- road, in her attempt at avoiding,both, a leadership challenge & a no-confidence vote in the Commons.

This is 'apparently' a guise to clarify with europe on the meaning of 'temporary' backstop on Northern Ireland, in fact, this is MAY's 'backstop' to avoid her personal humiliation at Westminster.

She, Theresa MAY is the architect of her own demise & her government.

She, Theresa MAY, is making the U.K a laughing stock in full view of the world.she is a performing liability & must go.

For the 'remainers' in parliament, as elsewhere, the referendum has to be delivered, both in the 'spirit' & 'letter' of that referendum result.

Another referendum, held before, or even after a general election in the short-term, will NOT result in a Labour victory, should it include that promise to hold one, because it will be a gross betrayal of, as well as a treacherous act against democracy.

In 1975, that referendum was 'non-binding', it was intentionally so, because, the then Labour government, hated 'democracy', they did NOT want any 'popular' decisions to be made by the people, they wanted to wield power & abuse it(like the Tories do)as a 'privilege' of being in power.

WILSON would have said,( had the result been to 'LEAVE') that, because the result was only 'marginally' in favour of leaving, he & his government would not honour the result despite saying that it would be the 'people's decision'.

This is why Gordon BROWN would NOT allow a referendum on the LISBON Treaty, which, fundamentally changed the E.U from what it was hitherto & caused Ed MILLIBAND to introduce an Act of Parliament that would make a referendum an obligation should any more powers were transferred to the E.U.

In 2016, that referendum was BINDING on the Tory government to deliver, of which the failure to do so will be politically toxic & fatal to the Tory Party's prospects of ever holding power again.
By Rich
#14970996
Nonsense wrote:For the 'remainers' in parliament, as elsewhere, the referendum has to be delivered, both in the 'spirit' & 'letter' of that referendum result.

Why?

Here we see the narcissism of Brexiteers. When have the Tories ever tried to help the Labour party deliver its manifesto promises? When has the Labour party ever tried to help the Tories deliver on their manifesto promisses. Why do these Brexiteers think they're so entitled to have they're vote respected? If Brexiteers (or remainers for that matter) were stupid enough to put their faith in a referendum then they need to learn about reality. I opposed Scottish independence, although I wasn't even given a vote. But I never expected the Scottish Nats to respect the result if they lost, as I never expected Nigel Farrage to respect a remain vote for one second if he lost.

Proportional representation encourages a more adult politics. Normally parties have to come together, compromise, choose their priorities and then form a working majority. Sometimes that even means the main right wing party and the main left wing party coming together to form a coalition.

In First Past the Post even when you get a minority government, the main parties are always looking at the opportunity of calling a General Election and regaining a majority. This is what makes no overall majority parliaments, under FPTP so unstable. Under PR parties have to grow up and face the reality that they will probably never get a single party majority. Under First Past the Post, taking responsibility for compromise is totally dis-incentivised. Why on earth should MPs who don't support a hard Brexit support a hard Brexit? What's in it for them.
By Rich
#14971011
layman wrote:She is a coward. The country doesn’t have time for more of these games.

Relax! Chill! We've got plenty of time. The European question's been going since the summer of 1914, but remember the Irish question's been with us much longer:
Benjamin Disraeli in 1844 wrote:A dense population, in extreme distress, inhabit an island where there is an Established Church, which is not their Church, and a territorial aristocracy the richest of whom live in foreign capitals. Thus you have a starving population, an absentee aristocracy, and an alien Church; and in addition the weakest executive in the world. That is the Irish Question.'

I hear over and over that Mrs is cowardly and she is stupid. Mrs May is surrounded on all sides by brave and intelligent people. So my question is why is She still Prime Minister and all of the heroic geniuses not?
By B0ycey
#14971013
layman wrote:She is a coward. The country doesn’t have time for more of these games.


I wouldn't use the word coward, but clueless. No problem calling off a vote she was going to lose anyway but what is her plan B?

Tick Tock Tick Tock...
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By noemon
#14971015
British politics has finally cut all links with normality and drifted off into absurdity. In the Commons a moment ago Labour’s Rupa Huq described the decision to call off the vote as an act of “premature parliamentary ejaculation”. In response, Theresa May said that, if Huq were to look carefully, she would see that May is not capable of premature ejaculation.

God knows what they make of this nonsense in Brussels ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... e792a058ab
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By Nonsense
#14971016
Rich wrote:Why?



Nonsense; Ever heard the word called, DEMOCRACY? :roll: :roll:

More to the point, NOT 'WHY', but, 'WHAT' does it mean to you Rich?

Would it be what it means to Theresa MAY, NOTHING!, the same as it does to the 'Remainers'.

'WHAT' is the point of Democracy' if all it means is that you just ignore it?

Is it any wonder the country is in such a parlous state, simply because of the ignorance of it's inhabitants & it's representatives.

Of course, it's ALWAYS a woman's 'right', to change her mind isn't it? :roll: :roll: :*( :*(
By Rich - 10 Dec 2018, 17:39

Rich -

I hear over and over that Mrs is cowardly and she is stupid. Mrs May is surrounded on all sides by brave and intelligent people. So my question is why is She still Prime Minister and all of the heroic geniuses not?


Nonsense -

Well, she is,the answer to the question is, they are ALL one of a kind, like clones, cowardly & stupid to the last.

Thick-as-thieves, stick together, like rats on a sinking ship, they jump on board the sinking ship to keep the 'leader'( :lol: :roll: ) 'afloat. :evil:
Last edited by Nonsense on 10 Dec 2018 18:18, edited 1 time in total.
By Rich
#14971017
I want to expand my politican's rules to three:

1 Never put the short term interests of your country before the long term interests of your party.

2 Never put the short term interests of your party before the long term interests of your political career.

3 Disguise your ambition, as Petyr Baelish says, "Don't let your enemies know what you want."

With May and Corbyn we seem to have two politicians who really understand these principles.
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By Nonsense
#14971018
Rich wrote:I want to expand my politican's rules to three:

1 Never put the short term interests of your country before the long term interests of your party.

2 Never put the short term interests of your party before the long term interests of your political career.

3 Disguise your ambition, as Petyr Baelish says, "Don't let your enemies know what you want."

With May and Corbyn we seem to have two politicians who really understand these principles.



That's a quick 'learning curve' Rich. :lol: :lol: :lol:
By layman
#14971066
@B0ycey i think it cowardly in that she is putting her ego and need to be be embarrassed over anything else.

She must know going back to Europe is not possible. She said the same herself 5 mins ago... no one is that clueless.

And it’s not about career in the way @Rich talks about because these months are her swan sono. She knows she doesn’t have long now.
By Rich
#14971123
layman wrote:@B0ycey i think it cowardly in that she is putting her ego and need to be be embarrassed over anything else.

She must know going back to Europe is not possible. She said the same herself 5 mins ago... no one is that clueless.

And it’s not about career in the way @Rich talks about because these months are her swan sono. She knows she doesn’t have long now.

Enoch Powell wrote:Every political career ends in failure.

But Petyr Baelish puts it better:
Varys wrote:What do we have left once we abandon the EU?
Chaos.

A gaping pit waiting to swallow us all.

Chaos isn't a pit.
Chaos is a ladder.
Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again.
The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but they refuse. They cling to the Customs Union, or the Single Market or the Good Friday Agreement.
Illusions.
Only the ladder is real.
The climb is all there is.
By B0ycey
#14971204
layman wrote:@B0ycey i think it cowardly in that she is putting her ego and need to be be embarrassed over anything else.

She must know going back to Europe is not possible. She said the same herself 5 mins ago... no one is that clueless.

And it’s not about career in the way @Rich talks about because these months are her swan sono. She knows she doesn’t have long now.


Her aim Layman is getting this deal through parliament and she finally now understands this deal would lose in parliament as things stand. Cowardness would be to walk away like Cameron did. So she is clueless and is wasting time. Going to Brussels and coming back with warm words will change nothing. There is nothing really she can do. She was checkmated months ago. Her only option now is either hard Brexit or no Brexit. And only the public should decide that fate. Perhaps rather than trying to persuade Brexiteers that this is the only possible deal (which it is) she should just be straight with them. Tell them that if they don't back her and this deal falls in parliament her next action is the people's vote as there is no other option she can take. And if they call for a leadership challenge let the next person discover unicorns can't be delivered. And if parliament back no confidence on May let Labour discover that their six tests cannot be executed with trade deals with the rest of the world and let their deal fall in parliament also. So there will be a peoples vote eventually, it is just a question of how many times article 50 needs to be extended until we have one and who is in power to call for it.
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