Liberals stop demonising Trump and admit you were wrong! - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14980693
Hindsite wrote:The medical professionals and the hospitals deserve to be paid fairly for their services.
They do in other countries, as well.

Hindsite wrote:Other countries have benefited greatly from our medical research that they don't have to pay for.
And the US has benefited greatly from medical discoveries and research done in other countries, as well.

https://globalnews.ca/news/3496099/8-me ... -proud-of/

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/02/medical- ... k-7675660/
#14980697
Rancid wrote:I agree. This is probably the worst thing he has done (economically anyway). perhaps I should amend my statement, because I don't think TPP can be resurrected.

Edit: I would need to understand more by what you mean by institutional knowledge. I always that with every new president, stuff is largely wiped clean anyway (new group of people with no experience are brought in).


Trade negotiations with other countries are time sensitive.

By institutional knowledge I mean career people at agencies like the State Department, which was gutted under Rex Tillerson. People who enter into lifelong federal careers tend to be civic minded and we have basically shuttered tons of them out of important agencies that help the country run.


Hindsite wrote: I believe your analysis is too simplistic by ignoring the obstruction by the Democrats.


What obstruction? He did it unilaterally.

I am sure Trump is not through with China and North Korea or with negotiating a better trade deal with those in the Pacific. I am also sure he is not working to kill me, but on the contrary is working to protect me and all other citizens of the USA.


1) He had a chance to negotiate a better trade deal and decided to walk away from the table instead, creating a power vacuum China is happy to fill.

2) The GOP is already discussing how we can't afford the social programs that keep you alive because we simply can't afford them after the tax bill that was supposed to pay for itself. You do not strike me as a savvy investor with a diversified bond portfolio that supplements your Social Security income.

Folow up to number 2: This is the standard GOP playbook. Defund government, say it can't help you, and then either give money to the rich through reduced taxes or through privatization. It plays into their narrative of "Government can never help you (especially when we are in charge)."
#14980706
Godstud wrote:They do in other countries, as well.

And the US has benefited greatly from medical discoveries and research done in other countries, as well.

I did not say otherwise. However, the USA still has the best healthcare in the world. If we were to go to the single payer government run healthcare system that would probably not last long. The doctors would only get paid what the bureaucrats determined they should get for their services, not necessarily what they deserved. That is not the way a free market democratic system should work. That would be a socialist or communist system.
#14980708
No. :roll: USA does not have the best healthcare in the world. That's American ignorance and arrogance at work.

Top 11.
United Kingdom
Switzerland
Sweden
Australia
Germany
Netherlands
New Zealand
Norway
France
Canada
USA

https://fr.april-international.com/en/h ... re-systems
#14980712
Free market capitalism has had a chance to provide affordable healthcare to all since the 40's when WW2 legislation prevented employers from offering higher wages to lure people away from industries necessary for the war. This is the origin of employer health care.

Since then, it has not been able to provide health care to the American populace. Maybe we should stop expecting it to work at some point and socialize it so that people don't tell paramedics to fuck off because a $500 ambulance ride to the hospital will bankrupt them.

If we can fund forever wars that gain us nothing for decades then maybe we can afford healthcare. Just a thought.
#14980716
SpecialOlympian wrote:What obstruction? He did it unilaterally.

I was referring to the obstruction to delay the confirmation of everyone of his appointments that require Senate confirmation.

SpecialOlympian wrote:The GOP is already discussing how we can't afford the social programs that keep you alive because we simply can't afford them after the tax bill that was supposed to pay for itself. You do not strike me as a savvy investor with a diversified bond portfolio that supplements your Social Security income.

It does not matter what the GOP discusses. It matters what the President will sign into law. He has already promised to protect Social Security and Medicare. You may be right that I might not be a savvy investor. Anyway, Social Security provides less than half of my retirement income.
#14980721
Godstud wrote:No. :roll: USA does not have the best healthcare in the world. That's American ignorance and arrogance at work.

Well, the USA did have the best healthcare in the world before Obamacare. I know Canada does not have better healthcare, otherwise there would not be any Canadians coming to the USA to get treatment.
Last edited by Hindsite on 17 Jan 2019 03:57, edited 1 time in total.
#14980724
Godstud wrote::roll: No... they never have had the best healthcare. Where did you get this idea from?

The ACA gave more healthcare to more people. It didn't make the healthcare system worse.

I never said the USA has the best system, that is debatable, but it has the best healthcare, if you can get it. That is why Canadians still come to the USA for certain healthcare problems, even though it is free in Canada. Before Obamacare in 2010 the U.S. delivered a superior quality of care on the measures that matter most to patients, and the system is far more dynamic and innovative.
#14980726
Hindsite wrote:That is why Canadians still come to the USA for certain healthcare problems, even though it is free in Canada.
:lol: That's a false claim that has been disproven time and time again. I expected you to say something this ignorant in response to what I posted.

It's also not "free'. We pay for it through our taxes. It is, however, far more efficient than the USA system and we get as good medical care for less $money$, and it's not in the government's best interest to try to make money off of our medical problems. We also don't have people going bankrupt because of medical bills, either.

Healthcare is a Right in Canada because we made it a priority to have healthy people. Healthy people are happier.

Canadians(#11 for life expectancy -82.02 yrs) enjoy a life almost 3 years longer than Americans(#53 for life expectancy - 79.25 yrs) because we have a better healthcare system.
http://www.geoba.se/population.php?pc=w ... e=d&page=2

Hindsite wrote:Before Obamacare in 2010 the U.S. delivered a superior quality of care on the measures that matter most to patients, and the system is far more dynamic and innovative.
Please, provide some actual evidence for this claim.
#14980736
Hindsite wrote:I was referring to the obstruction to delay the confirmation of everyone of his appointments that require Senate confirmation.


OK so why did you bother to bring it up when it had no relevancy to anything we discussed RE: the transpacific partnership deal?

It does not matter what the GOP discusses. It matters what the President will sign into law.


Lmao Trump had no input on the tax bill and signed it because he was told it would be a win. You're talking about a president who is completely uninterested in governing and who will happily sign any bill the GOP and, more importantly, Fox & Friends tell him is good to sign.

Just lmfao at even asking "What will Trump think of it?"

He won't.
#14980741
SpecialOlympian wrote:OK so why did you bother to bring it up when it had no relevancy to anything we discussed RE: the transpacific partnership deal?

Because it was relevant to your claim of "his inability to manage and fill key positions" in an earlier part of your post.

SpecialOlympian wrote:Trump had no input on the tax bill and signed it because he was told it would be a win.

His input was that he wanted a tax cut with less tax brackets and sure he likes a win. Nothing wrong with winning unless you get tired of winning.
#14980932
Godstud wrote::lol: That's a false claim that has been disproven time and time again. I expected you to say something this ignorant in response to what I posted.

Canada was last in the category of wait times. That is one reason they come across the border for healthcare.

Crossing the Border for Care

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

In citing those numbers in its 2015 report, "Leaving Canada for Medical Care," the organization said difficulties in obtaining timely medical care at home is, increasingly, leading Canadians to seek it abroad. "It is possible [they] may have left the country to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care, such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death," the report says. "Some may leave simply to avoid delay and to make a quicker return to normal life."

Canadians could expect to wait 9.8 weeks for medically necessary treatment after seeing a specialist in 2014, the researchers found, three weeks more than the time physicians considered to be clinically "reasonable."

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countr ... ealth-care

As Grossman notes, other advanced nations “clamp down” on the profit motive in various ways, meaning that people who would normally make more money in a free market through developing new medical devices, medications, or procedures to produce better health care outcomes and perhaps drive down prices through competition have less incentive to do so in these more government-controlled health care systems.

That is, despite the many regulations and laws aimed at consumer protection and safety that do exist in the United States, our health care market is relatively freer and more dynamic than those of other developed countries. This leads to a high rate of medical and pharmaceutical innovation that ends up benefiting the rest of the world, particularly other rich countries, in a similar way that NATO nations, for example, benefit from close military alliance with the United States. In short and somewhat reductive terms: we spend more money so everyone else can be healthier.

https://arcdigital.media/u-s-health-car ... 4241fb80ba
Last edited by Hindsite on 17 Jan 2019 23:43, edited 2 times in total.
#14980934
:lol: You are well brain-washed, by American exceptionalism, aren't you??? People who need necessary surgery are not on long lists. You do know that this includes dentistry, right? Our dentists are expensive and not covered by healthcare.

This dismisses more myths about Canadian healthcare vs American healthcare(?).


Also... from your article:
But Meyer acknowledges that some Canadians head to the U.S. for experimental therapies or faster access to treatment that is beneficial though not curative or life saving. Hip replacement surgery and other orthopaedic procedures are among treatments that fall into this category.

"In a public health system, you have to balance the high desire to get quality-of-life treatment as soon as possible with the need to deliver universal health care in an equitable manner." If the priority is universal health care, Meyer says, there is a risk of wait times.

But not everyone sees it that way.

"Canadians often think that the long wait times and bureaucratic roadblocks we experience are simply the price we pay to have a system that is fair and free… but the world tells us otherwise," journalist Michael Bolen wrote in The Huffington Post. He noted that in the Commonwealth Fund report, European countries with universal health care systems that use a hybrid of private and public models have shorter wait times and are ranked higher overall.

"So we're better than The United States," he wrote, referring to the rankings. "But should we really aim so low?"


Also, move to Canada. You'll live, on average, 3 years longer. :D I wonder why that is? :?:
#14980959
A Canadian Speaks Out About Health Care In Canada

Association of American Physicians and Surgeons
Published on Dec 25, 2010

Government-controlled health care in Canada is "great unless you need it." Ralph Weber, a Canadian medical refugee, explains why he and his family got the medical care they needed, not in Canada, but in the United States. Is Canada style waiting lists and rationing headed south, with the passage of ObamaCare?



Comments:

Evada E
I'm a Canadian and this doctor is spot on! I can tell you first hand that here in BC we do have many residents that do not have health insurance and many procedures are not covered, wait times are insane and overall the care is garbage. His words are the truth his message very clear! One example in my case -- I went to my doctor as I twisted my knee and could hardly walk, I was told the soonest I could get in to see a specialist was 1 year!

Two Cents
My neighbor waited seven years for surgery for trigeminal neuralgia in Canada. My son waited for a cancer diagnosis for five months. He flew to Boston and went into treatment at a major cancer center the day after he landed. I have experienced both health care systems, and America wins, hands down! This doc is speaking the absolute truth.

rob roy
It's simple all one has to do is watch the border states here in the states . They fill up with snowbirds most of whom are Canadian. The rest cross the border into the northern states to get health care . The proof is right there just ask a real Canadian. I've spoken to dozens and they all say Canadian health care sucks.

Universal Health Care? United States vs. Canada



The TRUTH About Universal Healthcare! (from a Canadian)

Obamacare, Trumpcare, Ryancare, Berniecare. Doesn't matter what you call it, when you hand over control of healthcare to the Government through a single-payer, universal system: it sucks. Allow me, someone who grew up with socialized medicine in Montreal, Canada, explain why.

#14980963
I lived in BC. The guy in that first video is lying, an idiot, or he never considered seeing a different doctor. My friend got an MRI the same day he was diagnosed with a serious injury to his knee(not "twisted", but a serious ACL tear). He was in surgery within a month. That's also anecdotal evidence.

I have extensive experiences with the Canadian healthcare system due to a back injury. The fear-mongering and lies that we hear from Americans telling us about our healthcare system, are just that.

In short, anecdotal evidence is all that you are presenting, and it's pretty lame evidence, at that. :lol:

American exceptionalism from a Trump fan-boy. Who'd have thought? :knife:

Here's America!!!
Alan Grayson claims 45,000 people die a year because they lack health insurance
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete ... -because-/
#14980975
Yes, wait times are longer in Canada than in the USA.

The reason is very simple: in Canada, access is determined by priority; whoever needs the help most urgently gets access first. In the USA, access is determined by ability to pay; whiever has the most money gets access first.

This means that Canadians who do not need urgent care will have to wait longer.

And this means that people in the US cannot get access if they do not have the ability to pay, regardless of how badly they need it.

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