[ness31]

*beats head against the wall*

[Sivad]

1. The claim that MMR vaccines and/or thimoseral causes autism has been shown to be wrong.

No it hasn't. Zimmerman, Kelly, and Healy have all clearly stated that the epidemiological studies that conclusion is based on are not powered to detect subgroups. Healy says that there are multiple subgroups with different susceptibilities(mitochondrial, metabolic, autoimmunological) where nothing has been ruled out.

Spitzer makes the same point in his congressional testimony -

@1:38:00

Walter Spitzer epidemiologist and professor of epidemiology and health at McGill University, 1975-1995

Spitzer chaired the Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics at McGill, was the founding co-editor of the Journal of Chronic Diseases in 1982, renamed the Journal of Clinical Epidemiology in 1988. Chairedthe Quebec Task Force on Spinal Disordersand was was elected to the Institute of Medicine in 1985.

He's also credited as a major figure in the development of the modern system of evidence-based medicine, along with Archie Cochrane and David Sackett.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Since I mentioned both death and suffering, I am also including things like needing to use an iron lung, or needing to use a wheelchair for the rest of their lives, or autism.

I thought you were ignoring me? I knew you couldn't help yourself.

Also, please provide evidence for the claim that these things would be occurring in mass if the vaccine companies had gone under. Namely iron-lung and wheel chair dependency.

Thanks.

I do not think that the mortality rate from these diseases would have dropped to the current rate without vaccines.

I already demonstrated this in the other thread, you even conceded it there, as did several others.

Not all goods and services that are efficacious and essential as a product are economically viable on the open market. This is a huge assumption on your part if you think this is the case.

Please provide an example; otherwise this sounds like your opinion. Thanks.

No one is saying they should be mandated, so I am going to ignore this strawman.

So you don't think vaccines should be mandated then? Good.

I guess we have no disagreement then, so we can end this conversation here, as that is my only REAL problem.

I have no idea. As far as I can tell, the only argument you made was that US vaccine companies suck because they did not make enough money to protect themselves from lawsuits.

If you think that is my argument, you clearly misread. Is this problem with reading comprehension a chronic issue with you? Does it occur at home too, or just on Pofo?

Maybe you can request a vaccine be made to help you with this?

[Victoribus Spolia]

*beats head against the wall*

Quit it!!! Do you want brain damage? Do you want people to think you were fully vaccinated?! HMMMM?!

[ness31]

Measles makes the paper where I live. It’s just so fucking weird .

[Victoribus Spolia]

Measles makes the paper where I live. It’s just so fucking weird .

Its stupid, I'm not that old and I can still remember kids getting chicken pox, measles, etc., pretty regularly and people weren't keeling over dead or being bound to wheel-chairs for life.

Not that it never happens, but apparently the trade-off for vaccine-related damages hasn't been that stellar in the minds of parents as the lawsuits alone nearly destroyed the vaccine industry in the U.S. until Uncle Sam came in and protected it from having to pay damages to people whose children were either killed or became retarded.

Now they want to mandate it and are feeding this push with the hysteria of things like...….publishing every outbreak of things like the common flu or chicken pox likes it the fucking black plague or ebola.

First world problems with gulagist solutions I suppose.

Pretty fucked up.

[Pants-of-dog]

No it hasn't. Zimmerman, Kelly, and Healy have all clearly stated that the epidemiological studies that conclusion is based on are not powered to detect subgroups. Healy says that there are multiple subgroups with different susceptibilities(mitochondrial, metabolic, autoimmunological) where nothing has been ruled out.

Spitzer makes the same point in his congressional testimony -

If the subgroup you are talking about is kids with mitochondrial disorders, then you are confusing the two claims again.

——————————

Also, please provide evidence for the claim that these things would be occurring in mass if the vaccine companies had gone under. Namely iron-lung and wheel chair dependency.

Thanks.

Are you asking to support the claim that iron lungs were used as treatments for polio, or for the claim that polio users were often cinfined to wheelchairs, or that illnesses cause autism?

The first two are well known, and the third can be supoorted if you are really not familiar with it.

I already demonstrated this in the other thread, you even conceded it there, as did several others.

If you think you demonstrated this and I conced3d it, then you must have misread.

Please provide an example; otherwise this sounds like your opinion. Thanks.

If you are claiming that goods and services that are efficacious and essential as a product are economically viable on the open market, then you have the burden of proof to supoort it.

Please do.

I guess we have no disagreement then, so we can end this conversation here, as that is my only REAL problem.

Then you agree that the MMR vaccine and/or thimoseral do not cuase autism.

And you agree that the vaccine/fever/encephalopathy claim is not currently supoorted by science.

—————————-

And all three of you should be asking yourselves why vaccine companies were sued so often in the USA, but not in other developed countries.

If the reason was thatvaccine companies are bad, or their products are bad, it would have been an issue in these other countries as well.

[Sivad]

If the subgroup you are talking about is kids with mitochondrial disorders, then you are confusing the two claims again.

Lawyer: Do you agree with the statement that vaccines do not cause autism?

Dr. Kelley: No.

Lawyer: You are actually arguing for a link between vaccines and autism in this case, aren’t you?

Dr. Kelley: I am.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, Kelly was one of the doctors looking into kids with mitochondrial disorders.

So, this is about the second claim and not the MMR/thimoseral claim.

[Sivad]

Lawyer: And then it says here, “These studies do not show any link between autism and MMR, thimerosal, multiple vaccines given at once, fevers, or seizures. Did I read that correctly?

Dr. Zimmerman: Yes.

Lawyer: And you agree with that, right?

Dr. Zimmerman: Yes, with the exception that these are epidemiological studies and do not incorporate our new knowledge at this point. This is the same point Dr. Kelley just made about the position the CDC has on vaccines and autism. He’s not saying the CDC or AAP (of which he is a member) are lying when they say, “Vaccines do not cause autism.” He’s saying they are relying on flawed and outdated science.

[Pants-of-dog]

Yes, Zimmerman is discussing how the second claim may be true.

Please note the claim involving mitochondrial disorders does not disprove the claim that MMR vaccines are safe for kids without mitochondrial disorders.

[Sivad]

Yes, Kelly was one of the doctors looking into kids with mitochondrial disorders.

So, this is about the second claim and not the MMR/thimoseral claim.

Are you like pretending you don't understand simple English now? He said vaccines cause autism, that's what he said, there's no mistaking it, it's not at all ambiguous, it's impossible to honestly deny that this top authority said, under oath, in a court of law, that vaccines do cause autism.

That's just one top authority directly stating that vaccines do cause autism, there's also a concurring statement by another top authority asked specifically about thimerosal and MMR:

Lawyer: And then it says here, “These studies do not show any link between autism and MMR, thimerosal, multiple vaccines given at once, fevers, or seizures. Did I read that correctly?

Dr. Zimmerman: Yes.

Lawyer: And you agree with that, right?

Dr. Zimmerman: Yes, with the exception that these are epidemiological studies and do not incorporate our new knowledge at this point. This is the same point Dr. Kelley just made about the position the CDC has on vaccines and autism. He’s not saying the CDC or AAP (of which he is a member) are lying when they say, “Vaccines do not cause autism.” He’s saying they are relying on flawed and outdated science.

[Pants-of-dog]

He said vaccines cause autism, that's what he said, there's no mistaking it, it's not at all ambiguous, it's impossible to honestly deny that this top authority said, under oath, in a court of law, that vaccines do cause autism.

Again, there is more than one possible way for vaccines to cause autism.

Three particular claims have already been analysed and shown to be wrong:

1. MMR vaccines directly cause autism.
2. Thimoseral causes autism.
3. MMR vaccines with thiiseral cause autism.

There is now a new possible way for vaccines to cause autism: the mitochondrial disorders claim.

That one is still being studied.

That's just one top authority directly stating that vaccines do cause autism, there's also a concurring statement by another top authority asked specifically about thimerosal and MMR:

Lawyer: And then it says here, “These studies do not show any link between autism and MMR, thimerosal, multiple vaccines given at once, fevers, or seizures. Did I read that correctly?

Dr. Zimmerman: Yes.

Lawyer: And you agree with that, right?

Dr. Zimmerman: Yes, with the exception that these are epidemiological studies and do not incorporate our new knowledge at this point. This is the same point Dr. Kelley just made about the position the CDC has on vaccines and autism. He’s not saying the CDC or AAP (of which he is a member) are lying when they say, “Vaccines do not cause autism.” He’s saying they are relying on flawed and outdated science.

And this corroborates my point about this being a new claim.

[Sivad]

Nobody cares about your lame equivocations, stop trying to save it and just admit that you're totally fucking wrong so we can all move on already.

[Pants-of-dog]

Do you agree that the mitochondrial disorders claim is separate from the MMR/thimoseral claims?

Yes or no?

[Sivad]

Do you agree that the mitochondrial disorders claim is separate from the MMR/thimoseral claims?

Yes or no?

Are you trying to claim that the MMR isn't a vaccine? Zimmerman says vaccines, and the MMR specifically, can and do cause autism.

And how are you ruling out thimerosal as a factor? Zimmerman says it could be the vaccines in general, thimerosal, or the MMR specifically. When asked about it he says it could be any or all of the above. The only thing the epidemiology has really established is that not all cases of regressive autism in vaccinated children can be attributed to vaccines, that in no way has cleared vaccines in general, the MMR specifically, or thimerosal of all links to autism and other disorders.


Zimmerman has filed fraud allegations against the DOJ lawyers for the same exact shit you're trying to pull here. It's a complete prevarication.

[Sivad]

If you go back through this thread you'll see how PoD just brought up thimerosal and MMR out of nowhere to invent some imaginary distinction that he could use to muddy the waters and sow confusion. That's gotta be the craziest bullshit tactic he's pulled yet.

[Sivad]

Garth L. Nicolson (born October 1, 1943)[1] is an American biochemist who made a landmark scientific model for cell membrane, known as the Fluid Mosaic Model. He is the founder of The Institute for Molecular Medicine at California, and he serves as the President, Chief Scientific Officer and Emeritus Professor of Molecular Pathology. He is also Conjoint Professor in the Faculty of Science and Technology, University of Newcastle, Australia.

During the outbreak of the Gulf War syndrome, he was the leading authority on the study of the cause, treatment and prevention of the disease. He was appointed Chairman of the Medical-Scientific Panel for the Persian Gulf War Veterans Conference.[2] On suspicion of the bacterium that caused the disease as a product of biological warfare, he made extensive scientific investigations and served as authority to the United States House of Representatives.[3] For his service he was conferred honorary Colonel of the US Army Special Forces and honorary US Navy SEAL.[4]

With S.J. Singer, Nicolson published a paper titled "The fluid mosaic model of the structure of cell membranes" in 1972,[5] which is now regarded as a classic paper in cell biology.

During 1970–1971 he worked as Senior Research Associate in the Armand Hammer Cancer Centre of the Cancer Council Laboratory at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, La Jolla. He became Head of the Cancer Council Laboratory, as well as Director of Electron Microscopy Laboratory in 1972. In 1974 he took the Chair of the Department of Cancer Biology, the post he held till 1976. In 1975 he was appointed Professor in the Department of Developmental and Cell Biology at the University of California, Irvine. In 1978 he additionally became Professor in the Department of Physiology and Biophysics at the College of Medicine, University of California, Irvine. In 1980 he was conferred the post Florence M. Thomas Professor of Cancer Research at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, where he worked for seven years. Between 1980 and 1996 he was also Professor at the Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences, the University of Texas Health Science Center; as well as David Bruton Jr. Chair in Cancer Research, Professor and Chairman of Tumor Biology at The University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center. He was also Professor in the Department of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine at the University of Texas Medical School from 1982 to 1998. During 1981–1998 he was Adjunct Professor in the Department of Pathology at the School of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A & M University. From 1989 to 1999 he was Professor in the Department of Internal Medicine at the University of Texas Medical School.[1] In 1996 he founded The Institute for Molecular Medicine at Huntington Beach in 1996.[15] He became its President, Chief Scientific Officer and Research Professor of Molecular Pathology. He also serves as Professor of Integrative Medicine at Capitol University of Integrative Medicine. Since 2003 he is also the Conjoint Professor in the Faculty of Science and Technology at the University of Newcastle, Australia.[2][3] He is a Founding Editor of the editorial board of the Cancer and Metastasis Reviews.[16]

Institutions
Salk Institute for Biological Studies
University of California, Irvine
University of Texas
Texas A&M University
The Institute for Molecular Medicine

[ness31]

@Pants-of-dog I take on board your comment about other developed nations not having the same issue with vaccines as the US, and I will try to read up on it.

[Pants-of-dog]

Are you trying to claim that the MMR isn't a vaccine? Zimmerman says vaccines, and the MMR specifically, can and do cause autism.

Please provide a link and a quote from Zimmerman to support the claim that Zimmerman says vaccines, and the MMR specifically, can and do cause autism that does not discuss people with mitochondrial disorders.

And how are you ruling out thimerosal as a factor? Zimmerman says it could be the vaccines in general, thimerosal, or the MMR specifically. When asked about it he says it could be any or all of the above. The only thing the epidemiology has really established is that not all cases of regressive autism in vaccinated children can be attributed to vaccines, that in no way has cleared vaccines in general, the MMR specifically, or thimerosal of all links to autism and other disorders.

Please provide a link and a quote from Zimmerman to support the claim that Zimmerman says vaccines in general, thimerosal, or the MMR specifically can and do cause autism that does not discuss people with mitochondrial disorders.

Zimmerman has filed fraud allegations against the DOJ lawyers for the same exact shit you're trying to pull here. It's a complete prevarication.

Do you agree that the mitochondrial disorders claim is separate from the MMR/thimoseral claims?

Yes or no?

If you go back through this thread you'll see how PoD just brought up thimerosal and MMR out of nowhere to invent some imaginary distinction that he could use to muddy the waters and sow confusion. That's gotta be the craziest bullshit tactic he's pulled yet.

Actually, the first mention of MMR or thimoseral in our exchange comes from you in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=175957&start=40#p14979303

In that post, you quote Zimmerman’s affidavit where he discusses how the mitochondrial disorders claim is different from the MMR/thimoseral claim(s).

If anyone feels that I have been muddying the waters, please note that I am merely paraphrasing Zimmerman’s own words, and if I have misunderstood Zimmerman’s words, please clarify where I misunderstood. Thanks.

————————————

@Pants-of-dog I take on board your comment about other developed nations not having the same issue with vaccines as the US, and I will try to read up on it.

Thanks. I have my own ideas about this, and it would be interesting to see if you come up with something similar.