[Sivad]

Please provide a link and a quote from Zimmerman to support the claim that Zimmerman says vaccines, and the MMR specifically, can and do cause autism that does not discuss people with mitochondrial disorders.

It's been posted multiple times in this thread, it's been posted multiple times on this page.

Please provide a link and a quote from Zimmerman to support the claim that Zimmerman says vaccines in general, thimerosal, or the MMR specifically can and do cause autism that does not discuss people with mitochondrial disorders.

It's been posted multiple times in this thread, it's been posted multiple times on this page.

Do you agree that the mitochondrial disorders claim is separate from the MMR/thimoseral claims?

Yes or no?

Fraud.

Actually, the first mention of MMR or thimoseral in our exchange comes from you in this post:
viewtopic.php?f=45&t=175957&start=40#p14979303

In that post, you quote Zimmerman’s affidavit where he discusses how the mitochondrial disorders claim is different from the MMR/thimoseral claim(s).

What I love most about this is how an affidavit describing a fraud is posted and PoD reads it and thinks to himself "hey that's a pretty good trick, I think I'll pull that trick right now, I'll do it directly after the post of the affidavit describing it".

[XogGyux]

Have you found sasquatch yet?

[Pants-of-dog]

It's been posted multiple times in this thread, it's been posted multiple times on this page.

It's been posted multiple times in this thread, it's been posted multiple times on this page.

Fraud.

What I love most about this is how an affidavit describing a fraud is posted and PoD reads it and thinks to himself "hey that's a pretty good trick, I think I'll pull that trick right now, I'll do it directly after the post of the affidavit describing it".

At this point, you no longer seem engaged in debate.

You are simply refusing to post evidence, attacking me personally, and repeating yourself.

It seems that there is nothing left to learn.

Have a pleasant evening, Sivad.

[Sivad]

At this point, you no longer seem engaged in debate.

I tried to engage, you just weren't having it. All you've done is troll the thread with "highly misleading" bullshit.

[Pants-of-dog]

If you think I have been misleading, please show how. Thanks.

[Sivad]

Have you found sasquatch yet?

A couple of em.

[Pants-of-dog]

Here are Dr. Zimmerman’s own words when discussing the case of Michelle Cedillo:

Based on this background, my opinions in this case cover six areas:


1. There is no scientific basis for a connection between measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine or mercury (Hg) intoxication and autism. Despite well-intentioned and thoughtful hypotheses and widespread beliefs about apparent connections with autism and regression, there is no sound evidence to support a causative relationship with exposure to both, or either, MMR and/or Hg. Michelle Cedillo had a thorough and normal immunology evaluation by Dr. Sudhir Gupta, showing no signs of immunodeficiency that would have precluded her from receiving or responding normally to MMR vaccine.

2. Michelle Cedillo’s developmental regression was likely to have been pre-programmed from birth to emerge, as it does in Rett syndrome, long after birth. Although in rare instances MMR can be associated with an acute encephalopathy, this event did not occur here. While parental description of the emergence of Michelle Cedillo’s condition has been inconsistent, no description coincides with an acute encephalopathic insult. Petitioners’ experts postulate a chronic brain injury. Again, there is no scientific basis for attributing autism to MMR administration.

3. The pediatric growth records show abnormal growth in height, weight and head circumference during Michelle’s first 18 months of life. At birth, her weight was at the 50th, while length was at the 90th percentile. By 6 months of age, all measurements were well above the normal growth curve for age. However, at 11 years her height was at the 75th percentile, although she continued to be overweight. This unusual growth pattern suggests a genetic disorder of growth, a so-called “overgrowth syndrome,” such as Sotos syndrome, which has been associated with autism. Although she was said to have had extensive genetic testing, I was unable to locate results of such testing in the records, nor was there a genetic consultation recorded, as recommended by Dr. B.J. Freeman (in 7/00) among others. Rapid acceleration of head growth has been documented during early postnatal development in autism (but not height or weight), the causes for which are still unknown.

4. Although Michelle’s early developmental milestones were later said to be normal, they were not. Dr. Karlsson Roth recorded during an early diagnostic evaluation that Michelle did not smile until 4-6 months, roll front to back until 4-5 months, crawl until 9 months, sit until 11 months or walk until 16 months. Such delays suggest subtle abnormalities of development during the first year of life, preceding the administration of MMR vaccine.

5. Associated medical disorders in children with autism may occur commonly or uncommonly, but are not diagnostic of autism, nor do they indicate or imply the etiology of autism. For example, gastroesophageal reflux and lymphoid hyperplasia in the gastrointestinal tract, and epilepsy in the nervous system, both occur together with autism, however neither is diagnostic or definitive with respect to its causes or treatment. The medical treatment of these and other associated medical disorders can alleviate suffering and help a child respond better to autism therapies (such as speech and occupational therapy), but in neither case do the treatments change the underlying autism. Crohn’s disease, uveitis and arthritis, conditions attributed to Michelle, have no correlation with autism.

6. Autism, in most cases, begins before birth, and the maternal “environment” in the womb is likely to be important in the process. A number of factors are likely to increase susceptibility to autism, such as autoimmune disorders in the mother, including allergy and asthma (for which Theresa Cedillo was treated and followed). Autoimmune disorders are more common in the mothers and families with autism than the general population, however such associations have not been found in the children.


In summary, the factors outlined above strongly suggest that Michelle Cedillo had unusual signs and symptoms leading up to the appearance of developmental regression and the recognition of autism. Her medical course has also been unusual and complex but does not imply a relationship to a specific etiology. Furthermore, there is no evidence of an association between autism and the alleged reaction to MMR and Hg, and it is more likely than not, that there is a genetic basis for autism in this child.

According to my understanding, the bolded phrases all support the claim that Dr. Zimmerman thinks the MMR vaccine and/or thimoseral do not cause autism in kids without mitochondrial disorders.

The phrase highlighted in yellow alludes to the possibility that vaccines may cause symptoms that are similar to autism in children with mitochondrial disorders.

Here is where @Sivad usually accuses me of being misleading, so let us address that by looking at Dr. Zimmerman’s affidavit, where he explains why he thinks people have been using his words in a misleading way.

Here are the relevant parts of Dr. Zimmerman’s affidavit:

6. On Friday June 15th 2007, I was present during a portion of the O.A.P. to hear the testimony of the Petitioner’s expert in the field of pediatric neurology, Dr. Marcel Kinsbourne. During a break in the proceedings, I spoke with DOJ attorneys and specifically the lead DOJ attorney, Vincent Matanoski, in order to clarify my written expert opinion.

7. I clarified that my written expert opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was a case-specific opinion as to Michelle Cedillo. My written expert opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was not intended to be a blanket statement as to all children and all medical science.

8. I explained that I was of the opinion that there were exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.

9. More specifically, I explained that a subset of children with an underlying mitochondrial dysfunction, vaccine-induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic energy reserves could, and in at least one of my patients, did cause regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.

10. I explained that my opinion regarding exceptions in which vaccines could cause autism was based upon advances in science, medicine, and clinical research of one of my patients in particular.

....

19. In my opinion, the statement by Mr. Matonoski during his closing argument regarding my expert opinion was highly misleading and not an accurate reflection of my opinion for two reasons. First, Mr. Matanoski took portions of my opinion out of contrxt. My opinion as to Michelle Cedillo was case specific. I was only referring to the medical evidence that I had reviewed regarding her. My opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was not intended to be a blanket statement as to all children and all medical science. Second, as explained above, I specifically explained to Mr. Matanoski and the other DOJ attorneys who were present that there were exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.

So, Dr. Zimmerman thinks it is misleading to discuss his opinion without separating the cases involving mitochondrial disorders from thise cases that do not deal with underlying mitochondrial disorders.

Please note that it would then be misleading to claim that Dr. Zimmerman thinks vaccines cause autism, if you did not also mention mitochondrial disorders.

[Sivad]

It's crazy that you keep doing this. It was fraud when the DOJ lawyers did it, it was fraud the first time you did it, it was fraud the last umpteen times you did it, and it'll be fraud the next time you do it.

Zimmerman clearly says that MMR and thimerosal can and do cause autism in groups with that susceptibility. He goes on to say that the epidemiology that purportedly ruled out any connection between MMR/thimerosal and autism was "flawed and limited".

Everyone has always accepted that vaccines don't cause autism in every single child, that's been obvious from the start. We all know that whatever the connection is it's going to depend on a complex interaction of genetic and environmental factors.

This stupid nonsense you keep harping on is completely irrelevant and "highly misleading". All you're doing is trolling the thread with fraudulent bullshit.

[Sivad]

Here's why it's fraud:

7. I clarified that my written expert opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was a case-specific opinion as to Michelle Cedillo. My written expert opinion regarding Michelle Cedillo was not intended to be a blanket statement as to all children and all medical science.

8. I explained that I was of the opinion that there were exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.

9. More specifically, I explained that a subset of children with an underlying mitochondrial dysfunction, vaccine-induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic energy reserves could, and in at least one of my patients, did cause regressive encephalopathy with features of autism spectrum disorder.

10. I explained that my opinion regarding exceptions in which vaccines could cause autism was based upon advances in science, medicine, and clinical research of one of my patients in particular.

[Pants-of-dog]

It's crazy that you keep doing this. It was fraud when the DOJ lawyers did it, it was fraud the first time you did it, it was fraud the last umpteen times you did it, and it'll be fraud the next time you do it.

This stupid nonsense you keep harping on is completely irrelevant and "highly misleading". All you're doing is trolling the thread with fraudulent bullshit.

You keep calling me a liar, but you seem unable to show how I lied.

You cannot even say what I am supposedly lying about.

Zimmerman clearly says that MMR and thimerosal can and do cause autism in groups with that susceptibility. He goes on to say that the epidemiology that purportedly ruled out any connection between MMR/thimerosal and autism was "flawed and limited".

Everyone has always accepted that vaccines don't cause autism in every single child, that's been obvious from the start. We all know that whatever the connection is it's going to depend on a complex interaction of genetic and environmental factors.

Not quite.

Dr. Zimmerman does not think that the MMR vaccine specifically can lead to encephalopathy in kids with mitochondrial disorders.

He thinks any vaccine that causes a fever can do that. MMR vaccines cause fevers about 5% of the time. Many other vaccines do, with similarly low percentages.

Please note that the diseases prevented by these vaccines cause fevers far nore often.

The fever then causes a trigger injury which is the encephalopathy that cuases the symptoms that appear to be autism, which is a fancy way of saying the fever causes brain damage.

From my understanding, Dr. Zimmerman does not think mercury additives lead to either autism or encephalopathy. Dr. Zimmerman’s hypothesis does not include thimoseral at all.

If Dr. Zimmerman is correct, that may indicate that children with mitochondrial disorders should not be vaccinated. And if that is the case, then their main protection from the diseases that would cause these fevers would be herd immunity. And if that is the case, then we should try to vaccinate as many other people as we can, in order to protect them.

Having said that, there are problems with Dr. Zimmerman’s hypothesis.

[Sivad]

Noemon Edit: Rule 2 Violation.

See Moderation notes on calling people liars here: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=151651

Dr. Zimmerman does not think that the MMR vaccine specifically can lead to encephalopathy in kids with mitochondrial disorders.

The MMR is a vaccine, so when Zimmerman says vaccines in general can cause autism, that includes the MMR.

He thinks any vaccine that causes a fever can do that. MMR vaccines cause fevers about 5% of the time. Many other vaccines do, with similarly low percentages.


Please note that the diseases prevented by these vaccines cause fevers far nore often.

It's not just fever, he also says autoimmune response [in addition to fever].

The fever then causes a trigger injury which is the encephalopathy that cuases the symptoms that appear to be autism, which is a fancy way of saying the fever causes brain damage.

Yeah, that's like saying it's not the bullet that kills you, it's the massive organ damage and blood loss. This is just a desperate little equivocation.

symptoms that appear to be autism

Autism is not a specific etiology, it's a set of symptoms with an unknown etiology. If you have the requisite symptoms then you have autism.

Dr. Zimmerman’s hypothesis does not include thimoseral at all.

The lawyer specifically mentions MMR and thimerosal in his question to Zimmerman and Zimmerman responds in the affirmative. Thimerosal can definitely trigger a strong autoimmune response, some people have full blown allergic reactions to the shit, and since Zimmerman says a an autoimmune response can do it, that would then include thimerosal.

If Dr. Zimmerman is correct, that may indicate that children with mitochondrial disorders should not be vaccinated.

If Zimmerman is correct then he has identified one susceptibility pathway for one disorder, Dr. Healy says there could multiple pathways that lead to multiple disorders. When you start adding up the unknowns it's not at all clear if the benefits outweigh the harm. Whether the cure is worse than the disease is still very much an open question.

[Sivad]

Having said that, there are problems with Dr. Zimmerman’s hypothesis.

I'm sure all the pharma trolls are "debunking" it and Zimmerman could very well be mistaken, but for you that only means at best that there's a legitimate controversy and therefore vaccines are not proven to be as safe as the public health establishment claims.

[XogGyux]

I'm sure all the pharma trolls are "debunking" it and Zimmerman could very well be mistaken, but for you that only means at best that there's a legitimate controversy and therefore vaccines are not proven to be as safe as the public health establishment claims.

I'm sure all the world's people are "debunking" it and Daniel Shenton could very well be mistaken, but for you and only peans at best that there's a legitimate controversy and therefore the earth is not proven to be a glove as the establishment claims.

See? you can do that with every conspiracy theory. POD now is your turn to do it with bigfoot

[Pants-of-dog]

You're lying right there. I have repeatedly shown how you're lying.

No, you just keep calling me a liar for some reason.

The MMR is a vaccine, so when Zimmerman says vaccines in general can cause autism, that includes the MMR.

Well, Dr. Zimmerman does not say vaccines in general can cause autism. That would be misleading.

But it is true that the MMR vaccine is one of the vaccines implicated in his hypothesis.

It's not just fever, he also says autoimmune response [in addition to fever].

Yes, from what i understand, the trigger injury can also be caused by inflammation.

And since you do not disagree with the claim that the diseases themselves are even more likely to cause trigger injuries, I will assume you agree.

Yeah, that's like saying it's not the bullet that kills you, it's the massive organ damage and blood loss. This is just a desperate little equivocation.

This is your opinion about how I wrote the sentence.

You do not seem to disagree with this on a factual level.

[
Autism is not a specific etiology, it's a set of symptoms with an unknown etiology. If you have the requisite symptoms then you have autism.

Not necessarily. By that logic, people with Down’s syndrome would be autistic. They are not considered so, despite the fact that they display many of the symptoms.

Anyway, this is another example where you are hot factually disagreeing with me, and your criticism is based on my wording.

The lawyer specifically mentions MMR and thimerosal in his question to Zimmerman and Zimmerman responds in the affirmative. Thimerosal can definitely trigger a strong autoimmune response, some people have full blown allergic reactions to the shit, and since Zimmerman says a an autoimmune response can do it, that would then include thimerosal.

I would ask you to quote the text where Dr. Zimmerman replies in the affirmative to such a question. I do not remember that happening.

Also, Dr, Zimmerman is not discussing allergic reactions to thimoseral at all.

If Zimmerman is correct then he has identified one susceptibility pathway for one disorder, Dr. Healy says there could multiple pathways that lead to multiple disorders. When you start adding up the unknowns it's not at all clear if the benefits outweigh the harm. Whether the cure is worse than the disease is still very much an open question.

And it will always be an open question, so we need to keep looking at it.

Since you have not commented on the fact that kids with mitochondrial disorders would beed herd immunity, and this implies an obligation for the rest of is to be vaccinated, I will assume you agree.

[ness31]

So, I can’t really find any online literature that shows litigation over vaccines is US specific Post some links POD and I’d gladly read them.

Off the top of my head though, I’d say the vaccines are triggering adverse reactions to people with certain genetic markers. My opinion is, our species is compromised. We don’t even reproduce naturally anymore. We’re weak, and getting weaker, ‘snowflakier’.

http://instructor.mstc.edu/instructor/s ... terfly.htm

Now, I’ve hung out on this board long enough to know that you will probably reject that outright. And that’s fine. It’s about as valid a point as saying people who smoke cannabis are predisposed to psychosis

[Sivad]

Off the top of my head though, I’d say the vaccines are triggering adverse reactions to people with certain genetic markers.

It's at least that, and we don't know how many of these subgroups are out there or how many different disorders vaccines might be triggering. Spitzer says the epidemiology isn't powered to detect a vaccine-autism link in up to 20% of autism cases that have a temporal association with vaccination. And since the IOM and other institutes of babbittry have recommended against more rigorous investigation we won't be getting to the bottom of it anytime soon.

[Sivad]

certain genetic markers.

Another thing is certain common contaminates in vaccines like mycoplasmas can cause mitochondrial damage, so vaccines might be doing more than just triggering these disorders.

PoD claims that natural infections are just as likely to trigger a disorder as vaccination but that's not at all clear either. The adjuvants and contaminants vaccines contain could very well provoke a far more powerful immune response than the natural infections they're designed to prevent.


The bottom line to all of this is that we don't know. We don't know because it hasn't been properly studied.

[ness31]

My light reading over the weekend informed me that vaccine manufacturing isn’t a terribly profitable exercise. The US has massive purchasing power and demands deep discounts.

Could this quasi mandating of vaccines be a way of ensuring continued production?

[Sivad]

My light reading over the weekend informed me that vaccine manufacturing isn’t a terribly profitable exercise.

Then your sources have misinformed you:

In 2014 the global vaccine market was worth over 32 billion dollars and was expected to reach over 59 billion by the year 2020.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/265 ... ne-market/

And even if vaccines weren't extremely profitable, adding another dozen or so over the next decade and mandating compliance with the schedule would be a good way of making them extremely profitable.




The Vaccine Business

A common argument from vaccine promoters is that vaccine manufacturing is not profitable and that Pharma only manufactures vaccines as good samaritans. This false narrative is the usual response to questions about corruption in vaccine safety studies or criticisms of the conflicts of interest between the CDC (that designates the mandated vaccine schedule) and the corporations who profit from those vaccines. Vaccine producers have never claimed that vaccines are not profitable, so its a bit of a mystery where this idea comes from. Market analysts and the manufacturers’ financial reports demonstrate considerable profits (both current and future) of vaccines products.

http://vaccinepapers.org/vaccine-revenue/


Crony capitalism at its finest.

[ness31]

Yeah, this is where I use my discretion as one of the non Babbitt class. I know it’s a sexy angle to go with crony capitalism but that ain’t it IMHO.
It’s more complex than that and at the heart of this coercion shit is plain old patriarchy. Patriarchy with extremely outdated data, unable to reconcile all sorts of major issues and technological advances, mainly in AI.

That’s the crux of it for me.


Edit - and fear. Lots of fear. Segments of society feel vulnerable. I’m sure they have their reasons, but it doesn’t justify coercion and the blowing away of some very basic, fundamental human rights.