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By noemon
#14981279
Boycey wrote:UKIP has never had a chance in a general election. At best they perhaps might spilt the Tory vote. Big woop.


I don't know why you are denying this. UKIP reached 13% in 2015 and received more votes than the Lib-Dems and the SNP combined. It was destroyed in the next elections after Brexit. The Tory/Cameron political calculation succeeded indeed.
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By B0ycey
#14981280
noemon wrote:I don't know why you are denying this. UKIP reached 13% in 2015 and received more votes than the Lib-Dems and the SNP combined. It was destroyed in the next elections after Brexit. The Tory/Cameron political calculation succeeded indeed.


I am denying it because they never had a chance in the election Noemon. Neither did the Lib Dems and SNP. At best they would have split the Tory vote, resulting in a few more MPs for labour and maybe double their MPs to two.
By Rich
#14981302
B0ycey wrote:REALLY!!!

Half way through the coalition, the most prominent European party in the UK agreed and announced the referendum???

The EU referendum was a Tory pledge in their manifesto. And the reason it was put in there was because Cameron got outfoxed live on TV.

Cameron made his referendum promise in January 2013. It effectively became Conservative policy. It was repeated over and over again, the way to a referendum was to give the Tories a majority. It was argued over and over again, that the best way to leave the EU was to vote Tory not UKIP.


UKIP has never had a chance in a general election. At best they perhaps might spilt the Tory vote. Big woop.

Big woop? Big woop? Splitting the right wing vote was Cameron's nightmare. How do you think that Thatcher won a landslide in 1983 on a reduced vote? Because the anti Thatcher vote was split. How do you think Bill Clinton won in 1992 on 43% of the vote? Because Perot split the conservative vote. Teresa May increased the Tory vote share in 2017 over both the 2015 result and over the local election result a month earlier. The reason she lost her majority was because the Remain and left vote consolidated behind labour.

The reason the Conservatives got wiped out in Scotland in the nineties was because the SNP too so much of the nationalist vote. It was Scottish nationalism rather than British nationalism. THE only reason the SNP defies the split vote syndrome, because it wins votes as both a nationalist party and a progressive party.

The Liberal Party clung on in 1951 with 6 seats. UKIP briefly had two MPs, if they could have got to 5 or 6 MPs they could have established a permanent food hold in British parliamentary politics. The Tories could have been out of power for a generation. Cameron's 2013 referendum pledge was a stroke of genius. Without it Ed Miliband would almost certainly have walked into number 10 in 2015 and Corbyn would never have become Labour leader.
By B0ycey
#14981307
Rich wrote:Cameron made his referendum promise in January 2013. It effectively became Conservative policy. It was repeated over and over again, the way to a referendum was to give the Tories a majority. It was argued over and over again, that the best way to leave the EU was to vote Tory not UKIP.


Well it is not true because Clegg was sitting on Camerons cock to make sure he remained in order. Cameron always dodged the question until the light got in his eyes and made his Freudian slip in 2015. But whatever.

Big woop? Big woop? Splitting the right wing vote was Cameron's nightmare. How do you think that Thatcher won a landslide in 1983 on a reduced vote? Because the anti Thatcher vote was split. How do you think Bill Clinton won in 1992 on 43% of the vote? Because Perot split the conservative vote. Teresa May increased the Tory vote share in 2017 over both the 2015 result and over the local election result a month earlier. The reason she lost her majority was because the Remain and left vote consolidated behind labour.

The reason the Conservatives got wiped out in Scotland in the nineties was because the SNP too so much of the nationalist vote. It was Scottish nationalism rather than British nationalism. THE only reason the SNP defies the split vote syndrome, because it wins votes as both a nationalist party and a progressive party.

The Liberal Party clung on in 1951 with 6 seats. UKIP briefly had two MPs, if they could have got to 5 or 6 MPs they could have established a permanent food hold in British parliamentary politics. The Tories could have been out of power for a generation. Cameron's 2013 referendum pledge was a stroke of genius. Without it Ed Miliband would almost certainly have walked into number 10 in 2015 and Corbyn would never have become Labour leader.


As I said Rich, it would have split the Tory vote but not to the extent you and Noemon think. They would have had a smaller minority "perhaps". And lets not forget that not all UKIP votes were from the Tory heartland. So yeah, Big Fuckin' Woop. UKIP are now a fringe party because it is clear that leaving the EU is a bad deal.

Also it needs to be said that the Tories are at risk of losing the next general election, not because people think that saint Corbyn is the Messiah, but because the Tories cannot produce unicorns that were promised by the Brexiteers. Being in power during Brexit negotiations was a poison chalice. So if this was Cameron master plan at making the Tories the top dog in politics, then my meme is completely right and he was a twat who has not only fucked up this country but is going to make the most unelectable opposition leaders ever to be a sure thing as the the next UK PM.

So wave your Tory flag Rich. Someone has to. :lol:
By SolarCross
#14981319
I bet Her Maj put Cameron up to promising a referendum; the EU wants to usurp her country and her armed forces so nobody loses more from staying in the EU than Her Maj. Cui bono.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#14981333
SolarCross wrote:I bet Her Maj put Cameron up to promising a referendum; the EU wants to usurp her country and her armed forces so nobody loses more from staying in the EU than Her Maj. Cui bono.


Ah, the story of the benevolent ruler. Its the elites that are bad but the ruler is supremely good. This bullshit has been said so many time during the centuries that i do not understand how the people keep believing this. "The Tsar is good but the Boyars are bad", "Putin is good but his oligarchs are bad", etc etc etc
By B0ycey
#14981348
I support Dame Yvette Copper if the rumours are true. A real bastion leader who knows how to grab the bull by the horn and actually has an idea for plan B.

Although I will add that such honors are merely vanity titles from the Feudial era.
User avatar
By noemon
#14981349
Londonbiker wrote:All those media releases by Barnier & Junker about not punishing the UK puts it into perspective.


The only perspective that should worry you is expecting(begging) EU charity to provide a deal that does not provide its own members when Britain already has the most privileged deal anyway.
User avatar
By Londonbiker
#14981365
noemon wrote:
The only perspective that should worry you is expecting(begging) EU charity to provide a deal that does not provide its own members when Britain already has the most privileged deal anyway.
I'm not worried, quite the opposite in fact.
User avatar
By noemon
#14981367
You should be because once people scent that Britain can only stand in the world as a beggar that is allegedly being bullied by Barnier and Juncker, then what stops Russia, China, India, Japan from treating you even worse. Once you assume the victim role, you have not just lost your prestige but your dignity too.
By SolarCross
#14981479
JohnRawls wrote:Ah, the story of the benevolent ruler. Its the elites that are bad but the ruler is supremely good. This bullshit has been said so many time during the centuries that i do not understand how the people keep believing this. "The Tsar is good but the Boyars are bad", "Putin is good but his oligarchs are bad", etc etc etc


That's not what I said, keep dreaming.
User avatar
By Heisenberg
#14981543
Beren wrote:I doubt we'll ever see a Sir David Cameron.

In fairness, he wouldn't want one. As far as b aristocrats like Cameron are concerned, knighthoods are for commoners. The peerage is the real prize. :lol:
By Rich
#14981550
We shouldn't give the slightest smidgen of respect to the referendum. It should be treated with total and utter contempt. This is why there is no need for a second referendum. The first can be flushed down the toilet like the worthless toilet paper it is.

Brexiteers claim its Britain's greatest act of democracy, its the opposite, its one of the most puerile and idiotic acts of democracy in British history. Although as I said it was a brilliant partisan party move by Cameron. First off we Britain and Eire joined the EU together, and have both chosen to reject Schengen and retain the common travel area, so if you were having a referendum then the citizens of Eire should be included in the vote. We share a closer union with Eire than the rest of the EU, which I haven't heard anyone complain about, so by any standards of decency and honour the citizens of the Irish Republic should be included in the decision making process.

This is why the decent, honest, honourable leaders and bureaucrats of the EU put the question of Ireland at the beginning of the process and the the lying, ignorant bigoted Brexiteers have been so blind sided by the issue.

B0ycey wrote:So wave your Tory flag Rich. Someone has to. :lol:

Umm I'd be interested to know by what logic you make me out to be a Tory. I thought I understood Liberal logic, but on this one you're got me beat.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981621
[quote="Rich"]We shouldn't give the slightest smidgen of respect to the referendum. It should be treated with total and utter contempt. This is why there is no need for a second referendum. The first can be flushed down the toilet like the worthless toilet paper it is.

Nonsense -

As a person who believes in freedom, including free speech, I defend your right to express your opinon's however you wish, but your comments quoted above deserve to be, " be treated with total and utter contempt" that they deserve.

I look forward to your response in a similar vein, but, I will leave it to others to decide on whom the contempt should be directed at. :roll: :roll: :?: :lol: :lol:

The 'logic' of your argument is, we, the people, have no right to express a democratic view, which, ALL the eligible people to vote had the opportunity to do so & YOU think that ALL of them had no right to do so.

I suppose you are one of those who think only a 'general election' suffices for such expressions.

Well, let me tell you, without a referendum, which is very popular in many countries, that without a referendum, such decisions would NEVER be decided, yet alone aired in places like WESTMINSTER.

So much for your type of 'democracy' erh!. :roll:
By Rich
#14981658
Nonsense wrote:The 'logic' of your argument is, we, the people, have no right to express a democratic view, which, ALL the eligible people to vote had the opportunity to do so & YOU think that ALL of them had no right to do so.

I suppose you are one of those who think only a 'general election' suffices for such expressions.

I'm not particularly a fan of referendums but although I didn't want to see tax benefits and other subsides given to gay marriages, but if I'd been Irish I'd be perfectly willing to accept the result of the 2015 referendum. Even gay marriage is not a perfect binary issue but its close enough. The same again with abortion, although not a binary issue its possible to present it as such in a coherent way but even if the Irish question had been dealt with the Brexit referendum did not answer

Should we leave the EU and join the EEA?
Should we leave the Single market?
Should we leave the Customs Union?
Should we leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ?
Should we leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR?
Should we leave Euratom?
Should we leave the Social Charter agreement?
Should we end European Free movement?
What control over health and safety standards should we sacrifice to get a free trade deal with the United States?
Should we abandon protection and subsides of our farmers to get a free trade deal with the United States?
How much should we abandon security concerns to get a trade deal with China?
Should we allow looser immigration restriction and student visas to get a trade deal with India?

Brexiteer fascists think they have the sole right to answer these questions? This is why I say the referendum was worthless garbage, because the EU can not be reduced to a binary question. This was a Tory Brexit referendum, promised in 2013 to solve a Tory problem, conditional on winning a majority in 2015. But I did accept the result. The Tories had a majority, so absolutely nothing stood in the way of them delivering a Tory Brexit. Brexit could have been done before I ever got another vote on it. So don't come whining to me that you haven't got Brexit. The Brexiteers wanted the Tory government to have absolute control over the negotiations. They wanted no one else to have any say in the result. And then these whining narcissists have the audacity to complain about what May has negotiated. Its not the fault of Labour, the Lib Dems or the SNP if you're not happy with the deal.

Brexiteers, you knew when you voted in the referendum that the Conservative Parliamentary Party was not hard Brexit. You knew that Tories that didn't believe in Brexit would have to deliver the result, what are you complaining about? You don't want to listen to me, why didn't you listen to Peter Hitchens? He's a long time Brexiteer, but what he says on this is almost the same as me. If you want to Brexit get a parliamentary majority and then don't invoke article 50, but negotiate your deal while you are inside from a position of strength. Brexiteers have acted like the twats from the Confederacy who left the Union before they had got an exit deal and then have spent the last 150 years whining about the results of their own stupidity.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#14981745
Rich wrote:I'm not particularly a fan of referendums but although I didn't want to see tax benefits and other subsides given to gay marriages, but if I'd been Irish I'd be perfectly willing to accept the result of the 2015 referendum. Even gay marriage is not a perfect binary issue but its close enough. The same again with abortion, although not a binary issue its possible to present it as such in a coherent way but even if the Irish question had been dealt with the Brexit referendum did not answer

Should we leave the EU and join the EEA?
Should we leave the Single market?
Should we leave the Customs Union?
Should we leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ?
Should we leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR?
Should we leave Euratom?
Should we leave the Social Charter agreement?
Should we end European Free movement?
What control over health and safety standards should we sacrifice to get a free trade deal with the United States?
Should we abandon protection and subsides of our farmers to get a free trade deal with the United States?
How much should we abandon security concerns to get a trade deal with China?
Should we allow looser immigration restriction and student visas to get a trade deal with India?

Brexiteer fascists think they have the sole right to answer these questions? This is why I say the referendum was worthless garbage, because the EU can not be reduced to a binary question. This was a Tory Brexit referendum, promised in 2013 to solve a Tory problem, conditional on winning a majority in 2015. But I did accept the result. The Tories had a majority, so absolutely nothing stood in the way of them delivering a Tory Brexit. Brexit could have been done before I ever got another vote on it. So don't come whining to me that you haven't got Brexit. The Brexiteers wanted the Tory government to have absolute control over the negotiations. They wanted no one else to have any say in the result. And then these whining narcissists have the audacity to complain about what May has negotiated. Its not the fault of Labour, the Lib Dems or the SNP if you're not happy with the deal.

Brexiteers, you knew when you voted in the referendum that the Conservative Parliamentary Party was not hard Brexit. You knew that Tories that didn't believe in Brexit would have to deliver the result, what are you complaining about? You don't want to listen to me, why didn't you listen to Peter Hitchens? He's a long time Brexiteer, but what he says on this is almost the same as me. If you want to Brexit get a parliamentary majority and then don't invoke article 50, but negotiate your deal while you are inside from a position of strength. Brexiteers have acted like the twats from the Confederacy who left the Union before they had got an exit deal and then have spent the last 150 years whining about the results of their own stupidity.



Nonsense -


Rich -

Should we leave the EU and join the EEA?
Should we leave the Single market?
Should we leave the Customs Union?
Should we leave the jurisdiction of the ECJ?
Should we leave the jurisdiction of the ECHR?
Should we leave Euratom?
Should we leave the Social Charter agreement?
Should we end European Free movement?

Nonsense -
Apart from the euratom issue, which is within the original 1957 Treaty of the Common Market, but,is also part of the 'divorce settlement' within the 'Withdrawl Agreement',the rest are part - parcel of the E.U itself & to be a member is conditional on acceptance of the rules of the 'club'.

Rich -
What control over health and safety standards should we sacrifice to get a free trade deal with the United States?
Should we abandon protection and subsides of our farmers to get a free trade deal with the United States?
How much should we abandon security concerns to get a trade deal with China?
Should we allow looser immigration restriction and student visas to get a trade deal with India?

Nonsense - IMHO, its a NO to all of them.

Rich -

Brexiteer fascists think they have the sole right to answer these questions?

Nonsense -

Apart from the inflammatory nature of calling 'Brexiteers' "fascist", people never voted for 'BREXIT', they voted 'LEAVE'-a very different animal indeed & being their democratic decision was to 'LEAVE', they have every 'right' to answer those 'questions', just as others have the 'right to 'ASK' those questions.

If the referendum in 2016 was about 'TORY' internal politics, which, in part I accept, it still doesn't settle the question of, WHY the people also decided to vote 'LEAVE', which, I assume, that you think those within the TORY Party wanted, What I mean to say is, those 'TORY' issues, despite CAMERONS duplicity, resonated with the voters in that referendum & they voted accordingly.

Rich -
So don't come whining to me that you haven't got Brexit. The Brexiteers wanted the Tory government to have absolute control over the negotiations. They wanted no one else to have any say in the result. And then these whining narcissists have the audacity to complain about what May has negotiated. Its not the fault of Labour, the Lib Dems or the SNP if you're not happy with the deal.

Nonsense -

This is where your post descends into the realms of being nonsensical.

I am not whining that we haven't got 'BREXIT', if I were 'whining', it would be because the government have created a 'BREXIT' WITHOUT a mandate, when they were ONLY instructed by voters, to LEAVE'.

It is RIGHT that the government have absolute control-NOT-on 'negotiations on a 'BREXIT', but, just on 'LEAVING' & the 'Divorce Settlement' which completes that instruction.

The 'problem' is, they HAVE NOT got 'full control', they ceded 'control' to parliament when they allowed a 'meaningful' vote, which they have now had & should be denied any more say in the proceedings to LEAVE.

In other words, parliament has had it's say, the government must have it's way(elected by the voters in a general election, instructed-AKA- ordered to LEAVE by referendum) & must now get on to delivering 'LEAVE'.

You say it's not the 'fault' of LABOUR,SNP or the Lib Dems if we are NOT happy with the 'deal'.

REALLY!, Are you an 'ostrich' Rich?

The government were not instructed to negotiate a 'deal' of any kind, yet alone one costing a questionable £38-39 BILLION, or any future trading relationship with europe, ALL being contingent on one another to be a single package with 'one-foot-IN-one foot OUT ' being the final outcome.

Leaving, settling the accounts, future relationship with europe, are all matters that should have been done separately,sequentially & not on the basis of being contingent on each to reach that 'settlement'.
Now, the chronology of thse negotiations would have been a separate question, the order of which should have been sorted at the time of invoking Article 50.


That is NOT 'LEAVE', that is 'BREXIT'

As I have said before, those 'REMAINER' MP's, with all of their little schemes(dreams)of keeping the U.K within the E.U, will get their come-uppance at the next election.

CORBYN's call for an election,because he will not get a 2nd referendum is a pathetic attempt, not to defeat the Tories electoralloy, but to defeat the referendum result.

Come the next election failure for LABOUR, because that is the price that they may have to pay for their obstructive actions on leaving the E.U, the real suffering will be the people already reaping the effects of 'TORYISM'.

Voters WILL remember the shenanigans by their MP's, in a matter which is NONE of their parliamentary business, save to DELIVER 'LEAVE', the instruction(ORDER)that 'LEAVE' voters gave them.
Last edited by Nonsense on 21 Jan 2019 14:14, edited 5 times in total.
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