The Coming Collapse; or, how I learned to love my inner Barbarian - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14985180
annatar1914 wrote:@starman2003 , you're right, it does take crises to wake people up from the doldrums, their malaise and apathy, but...

The Elites, formally the rulers of a society or otherwise (a subject in itself that I plan on raising later in the thread), are the real ones who either create and/or overcome a crisis or challenge which maintains the societies' vitality and adaptability, not the generally inert masses. If the Elites do not or will not overcome a crisis, than the whole society is effected and begins to break down. This has actually happened with Western civilization in my opinion.


The problem is that present elites, in democracies, have nowhere near sufficient power to address key problems. You don't win elections by doing what is unpopular, however necessary. Try getting elected by cutting spending or raising taxes sufficiently to tame the deficit, for example. We're headed for crises, big time...But I've always felt the ultimate casualty will be democracy not civilization. As past history indicates, a democratic system which can't deliver in a crisis or under new circumstances breaks down, but the result is Caesarism not a loss of everything. Indeed authoritarianism (Caesarism to use Spengler's term) can usher in a great new age, like in Rome in the two centuries after the fall of the republic.
#14985225
starman2003 wrote:The problem is that present elites, in democracies, have nowhere near sufficient power to address key problems. You don't win elections by doing what is unpopular, however necessary. Try getting elected by cutting spending or raising taxes sufficiently to tame the deficit, for example. We're headed for crises, big time...But I've always felt the ultimate casualty will be democracy not civilization. As past history indicates, a democratic system which can't deliver in a crisis or under new circumstances breaks down, but the result is Caesarism not a loss of everything. Indeed authoritarianism (Caesarism to use Spengler's term) can usher in a great new age, like in Rome in the two centuries after the fall of the republic.


Then I'm sure you're familiar with a couple of Carl Schmidtt's political aphorisms;

''Sovereign is he, who decides the exception'' (to the ''rules'', that is)

''Democracy is the legislative delay of the decision, eventually decided by one man''.

Somewhere hidden in the mass of persons, on the stage of political theater, one man is personally making the decisions, carrying out their own personal will even if it is cloaked in frippery and magical words like ''the will of the people''. All ''democracies'' are Synarchies, rule by a hidden Elite.

Even in Communism, there is obviously a Dictator, in the singular, in any proletarian ''Dictatorship of the Proletariat''. But this is where I get back to my personalism, as one man makes the sovereign decisions in a private way, in their hidden counsels of the heart, whatever the fiction of civilization that magically separates the man from his ''office''.

Civilization is that allegedly necessary fiction that masks the hidden personal rule of a few or even one, because if it becomes too apparent, then other persons conclude that they too can grasp at personal sovereignty, and you have a rise in ''crime'', ''corruption'', political disorder, and a breakdown in the illusion of the social contract between individuals in a society.
#14985388
annatar1914 wrote:I've hit peak cynicism and pessimism.



I'm at that point too, people are just not getting it. There has been a mass political awakening but people are still way too politically naive and divided to effectively challenge the establishment. They barely know what the game is let alone how to play it.
#14985428
Sivad wrote:I'm at that point too, people are just not getting it. There has been a mass political awakening but people are still way too politically naive and divided to effectively challenge the establishment....


I don't perceive "a mass political awakening" right now. That's for the future. As I've written before, while the system is stumbling toward collapse, as long as it's outwardly doing OK, few understand the need to change it. It takes a lot of guts to challenge a sacred cow like democracy--even if it's obsolete. But as time goes on its mounting failings will create more of a constituency for change--so society will be ready for its downfall and replacement.
I don't doubt that an elite exists even in a democracy. But while democracy is unworkable I wouldn't dismiss it as fictitious. If the popular will was of no consequence, we wouldn't have all these social programs and red ink.... ;)
#14985432
@annatar1914 I saw the thread title and thought I would post this poem. I hope it hasn't been posted already :)

Millions are you – and hosts, yea hosts, are we,
And we shall fight if war you want, take heed.
Yes, we are Scythians – leafs of the Asian tree,
Our slanted eyes are bright aglow with greed.

Ages for you, for us the briefest space,
We raised the shield up as your humble lieges
To shelter you, the European race
From the Mongolians’ savage raid and sieges.

Ages, yea ages, did your forges’ thunder
Drown even avalanches’ roar.
Quakes rent Messina and Lisbon asunder –
To you this was a distant tale – no more.

Eastwards you cast your eyes for many hundred years,
Greedy for our precious stones and ore,
And longing for the time when with a leer
You’d yell an order and the guns would roar.

This time is now. Woe beats its wings
And every adds more humiliation
Until the day arrives which brings
An end to placid life in utter spoliation.

You, the old world, now rushing to perdition,
Yet strolling languidly to lethal brinks,
Yours is the ancient Oedipean mission
To seek to solve the riddles of a sphinx.

The sphinx is Russia, sad and yet elated,
Stained with dark blood, with grief prostrate,
For you with longing she has looked and waited,
Replete with ardent love and ardent hate.

Yet how will ever you perceive
That, as we love, as lovingly we yearn,
Our love is neither comfort nor relief
But like a fire will destroy and burn.

We love cold figures’ hot illumination,
The gift of supernatural vision,
We like the Gallic wit’s mordant sensation
And dark Teutonic indecision.

We know it all: in Paris hell’s dark street,
In Venice bright and sunlit colonnades,
The lemon blossoms’ scent so heavy, yet so sweet,
And in Cologne a shadowy arcade.



We love the flavour and the smell of meat,
The slaughterhouses’ pungent reek.
Why blame us then if in the heat
Of our embrace your bones begin to creak.

We saddle horses wild and shy,
As in the fields so playfully they swerve.
Though they be stubborn, yet we press their thigh
Until they willingly and meekly serve.

Join us! From horror and from strife
Turn to the peace of our embrace.
There is still time. Keep in its sheath your knife.
Comrades, we will be brothers to your race.

Say no – and we are none the worse.
We, too, can utter pledges that are vain.
But ages, ages will you bear the curse
Of our sons’ distant offspring racked with pain.

Our forests’ dark depths shall we open wide
To you, the men of Europe’s comely race,
And unmoved shall we stand aside,
An ugly grin on our Asian face.

Advance, advance to Ural’s crest,
We offer you a battleground so neat
Where your machines of steel in serried ranks abreast
With the Mongolian savage horde will meet.

But we shall keep aloof from strife,
No longer be your shield from hostile arrow,
We shall just watch the mortal strife
With our slanting eyes so cold and narrow.

Unmoved shall we remain when Hunnish forces
The corpses’ pockets rake for plunder,
Set town afire, to altars tie their horses,
Burn our white brothers’ bodies torn asunder.

To the old world goes out our last appeal:
To work and peace invite our warming fires.
Come to our hearth, join our festive meal.
Called by the strings of our Barbarian lyres.

Blok is one of the best! 8)
#14985504
Red_Army wrote:@annatar1914 I saw the thread title and thought I would post this poem. I hope it hasn't been posted already :)

Millions are you – and hosts, yea hosts, are we,
And we shall fight if war you want, take heed.
Yes, we are Scythians – leafs of the Asian tree,
Our slanted eyes are bright aglow with greed.

Ages for you, for us the briefest space,
We raised the shield up as your humble lieges
To shelter you, the European race
From the Mongolians’ savage raid and sieges.

Ages, yea ages, did your forges’ thunder
Drown even avalanches’ roar.
Quakes rent Messina and Lisbon asunder –
To you this was a distant tale – no more.

Eastwards you cast your eyes for many hundred years,
Greedy for our precious stones and ore,
And longing for the time when with a leer
You’d yell an order and the guns would roar.

This time is now. Woe beats its wings
And every adds more humiliation
Until the day arrives which brings
An end to placid life in utter spoliation.

You, the old world, now rushing to perdition,
Yet strolling languidly to lethal brinks,
Yours is the ancient Oedipean mission
To seek to solve the riddles of a sphinx.

The sphinx is Russia, sad and yet elated,
Stained with dark blood, with grief prostrate,
For you with longing she has looked and waited,
Replete with ardent love and ardent hate.

Yet how will ever you perceive
That, as we love, as lovingly we yearn,
Our love is neither comfort nor relief
But like a fire will destroy and burn.

We love cold figures’ hot illumination,
The gift of supernatural vision,
We like the Gallic wit’s mordant sensation
And dark Teutonic indecision.

We know it all: in Paris hell’s dark street,
In Venice bright and sunlit colonnades,
The lemon blossoms’ scent so heavy, yet so sweet,
And in Cologne a shadowy arcade.



We love the flavour and the smell of meat,
The slaughterhouses’ pungent reek.
Why blame us then if in the heat
Of our embrace your bones begin to creak.

We saddle horses wild and shy,
As in the fields so playfully they swerve.
Though they be stubborn, yet we press their thigh
Until they willingly and meekly serve.

Join us! From horror and from strife
Turn to the peace of our embrace.
There is still time. Keep in its sheath your knife.
Comrades, we will be brothers to your race.

Say no – and we are none the worse.
We, too, can utter pledges that are vain.
But ages, ages will you bear the curse
Of our sons’ distant offspring racked with pain.

Our forests’ dark depths shall we open wide
To you, the men of Europe’s comely race,
And unmoved shall we stand aside,
An ugly grin on our Asian face.

Advance, advance to Ural’s crest,
We offer you a battleground so neat
Where your machines of steel in serried ranks abreast
With the Mongolian savage horde will meet.

But we shall keep aloof from strife,
No longer be your shield from hostile arrow,
We shall just watch the mortal strife
With our slanting eyes so cold and narrow.

Unmoved shall we remain when Hunnish forces
The corpses’ pockets rake for plunder,
Set town afire, to altars tie their horses,
Burn our white brothers’ bodies torn asunder.

To the old world goes out our last appeal:
To work and peace invite our warming fires.
Come to our hearth, join our festive meal.
Called by the strings of our Barbarian lyres.

Blok is one of the best! 8)


Blok has always been one of my favorites, and for that I turn to Pascal and say to you; ''the heart has reasons of which the mind knows nothing''

True Poets reflect the changing consciousness of the world around them, Blok, and Pushkin before him.
#14985516
Potemkin wrote:@Red_Army

I quoted Cavafy, so it's only fair that you should quote Alexander Blok. ;)


@Potemkin , @Red_Army ,

Ah, you guys know how to sway me, lol...

Fact is, you and I know what the ''personal freedom'' of the Barbarian is, and what you may call the working of the Dialectic and I call the operational will of the Trinitarian Divine Providence (same thing!)necessitates that everything that has happened must have necessarily happened, while noting that there is no personal freedom without economic freedom, that the ''Laborer is worth his hire'' in a very important way, going down deep into what it means to be a Person.

Blok reminds one that if the Dialectic/Divine Providence is true, then Russia is the fulcrum of History, the Barbarian State (note the seeming dichotomy!) destined to break the Old World Order... The Dialectic is understood only by a few chosen, so I offer to you this message written in 1941, by the Old Believer Orthodox Bishop of Moscow and All Russia, Irinarkh;

''Old-Believers have never been traitors to their Motherland. They have always defended their own homeland to the last drop of blood. We are confident that in the time of heavy ordeals, which we now have to endure, the Old Believers, also faithful to their centuries-old traditions, will unanimously rebuff the insidious enemy who has encroached on our sacred borders. The time has come, the hour has come for each Old Believer to direct all his forces and thoughts to fight the raging enemy and without sparing, to stand up for their sincere friends and to defend their great, peaceful and beautiful Motherland! Anyone who is able to hold a sword, let him go to the battlefield. Anyone who is able to work in the fields, factories and mills, let them work honestly for the good of our Motherland. Let us make the Sign of the Cross, the Holy and Indivisible Trinity, and in the examples of previous years, in the examples of our holy warriors, with the blessings and prayers of all saints and I bless you, for the feats of war.''

And this, from a man who had been imprisoned and exiled by the Bolsheviks, suffered much as did many, because revolutions are made by men, and men are sinners. But again, it was meant to be...
#14985866
annatar1914 wrote:Sorry you did not get the notification, and do not fear that I thought I was being neglected in conversation, as this thread has probably been the hardest to express my thoughts about that i've yet written, and I suspect a fair amount of it is ''thinking out loud''. However, your contributions as always are valued greatly.


There would be truly something wrong if technology always did its job. Then we'd truly be in post-modernity. :lol:

I very much appreciate you including me in the discussion.

annatar1914 wrote:I too have to be wary when I am discussing ''Tradition'' with others who may not understand what I mean by those words, because in itself ''traditions'' of men are worthless in my mind, but as an Orthodox Christian I have a belief in the traditions of the faith of Christ and His Gospel, ever-young and eternal, which is another matter. Both human tradition and human ''progress'' I try to measure by that yardstick of the eternally true and valid.


Political tradtionalism of the type espoused by Evola and Dugin would appear to be its own type of modernity. I understand their critique of modern civilisation but perhaps it is not so much modernity but the type of modernity we have now. Why not create an alternative modernity instead of rejecting it altogether?

I very much agree with you that the tradition of faith is the eternal tradition. We can hold onto this even if the world around us never stops changing.

annatar1914 wrote:I'm open to a discussion on that, believe me, i'd like nothing better than to maintain my personalism and drop my pessimism to a degree. I have said that I can be optimistic even in the midst of such an age, but i'm human, i'd rather see it as a transition to a better phase if I can be persuaded, than a possible 1000 years of darkness.


If only we had real thinkers and dreamers again. The latter part of the 20th century has not produced any real profound thinking. A lot has been written about the condition of man, a lot of which leads to nihilism and cynicism whereas very little has been written about what we can do to change it.

annatar1914 wrote:People may not have a choice but to look for meaning when their idols and illusions fail them.


We're starting to see that these illusions are leading people to dangerous and self-destructive behaviour. Sooner or later someone is going to have to say something.

annatar1914 wrote:It requires an Elite that has not turned against it's own culture or lost it's inner core of vital existence and decided to enforce conformity and regimentation at the expense of further social development, as Arnold Toynbee once wrote.


I dare say it even requires that such an elite be educated. From what I know of England the elite are not very well educated or more importantly in possession of wisdom. A good elite must be well read, amicable and resolute but the current Western elite are none of these.

annatar1914 wrote:I agree 100%, although in places like this we and others constitute a ''republic of letters'' of our own, do we not?


If more people would start to read then these little internet republics could become real ones.

The only problem is that this could herald a rise in pseudo intellectual activity. The Alt-Right are a perfect example of what happens when people who aren't very intellectual pick up books and start to play Dostoevsky, or perhaps we should say Hitler. Malić has addressed very well this issue of how these types of pseudo intellectual start to advocate some type of totalitarian fantasy which if enacted in practice would lead to genocide. In other words ideas and books become intellectual toys for bored cynical Westerners who cannot cope with the post-modern crisis.

I think we need real people of good heart, very grounded people to be intellectuals. But sadly everyone now is dreaming of himself as Lenin or Hitler and so the intellectual shift away from liberalism produces something that is just as bad if not arguably worse in some instances.

annatar1914 wrote:It may have already dawned on them that much of the crisis of modern times has fallen on their shoulders, and so fewer are walking around with illusions about living in a party that never ends, as their parents and even (or especially...) their grandparents might.


These young people need books and dreams but grounded in the goodness of their hearts.

annatar1914 wrote:So let's carry this on, i'd like to hear your input on these matters-have I given in to a kind of pessimism and malaise, decided to let everything go to the Devil, or am I on to something? I can take constructive criticism either way, I assure you


I'll write you a more thorough response soon.

annatar1914 wrote:Alright, rant over. I've hit peak cynicism and pessimism. I want my sense of hope and of justice back, belief in civilization and genuine progress.


You must not give up hope.

annatar1914 wrote:Blok reminds one that if the Dialectic/Divine Providence is true, then Russia is the fulcrum of History, the Barbarian State (note the seeming dichotomy!) destined to break the Old World Order...


This was something I thought about some year or two ago. I realised that the reason Western elites were weary of Russia and sought to portray her as Asiatic or foreign could not only have arisen from real Asian influences on Russian identity and culture, there was another factor. It was perhaps that the Eastern Slavs and especially those of Russia respresented a type of frontier, the barbarians who had not been civilised by the Roman or Latin world. The influence of Mongol rule and Russia's eastern location preserved the barbarian character of the Slavs living there. I understand that there are tremendous Turkic and Finnic influences in Russia as well, but it would appear that Moscow is the last bastion of the European barbarian identity. The Russian people are rooted in their land, traditions and faith, not emasculated or ruled by money and status anxiety. Part of me wonders if in our own way, we feel drawn to Russia, whether we are left or right, because there is a part of us that recognises ourselves in Russia. But I would not want to compare myself to such a great people. All I can say is this, money is absolutely of no object to me. I only care about honour and my worth as a person or man.
#14985889
Political Interest wrote:.... perhaps it is not so much modernity but the type of modernity we have now. Why not create an alternative modernity instead of rejecting it altogether?


Right, exactly. Civilization will be shaken up but will remain as advanced as ever; only the present system will go. We need a new secular ideology, the basis of a new authoritarian State.

I very much agree with you that the tradition of faith is the eternal tradition. We can hold onto this even if the world around us never stops changing.


Lol I have doubts. Knowledge keeps increasing and there's been a long general trend toward secularization.
Even in times past, the French revolutionaries and communists strongly challenged christianity despite not having (my rough guess) 1% of the ultimate scientific/technical basis for doing so properly. I submit by by 2050, or 2100, we'll see the final challenge. :)

If only we had real thinkers and dreamers again. The latter part of the 20th century has not produced any real profound thinking. A lot has been written about the condition of man, a lot of which leads to nihilism and cynicism whereas very little has been written about what we can do to change it.


I think the problem is the utter discrediting of fascism has left even intellectuals with a blind spot. Although it opens the door to real solutions and great possibilities (instead of democratic impotence and humdrum) it's just taboo.
(Of course by "fascism" I don't mean flawed 20th century varieties but a new secular authoritarianism.)

.... these types of pseudo intellectual start to advocate some type of totalitarian fantasy which if enacted in practice would lead to genocide....


Neo-nazis--if that's what you mean--aren't going anywhere.

but it would appear that Moscow is the last bastion of the European barbarian identity.


:?: Russia has been authoritarian statist (since the third Rome notion)--not something I equate with barbarians.


The Russian people are rooted in their land, traditions and faith, not emasculated or ruled by money and status anxiety.


What about vodka? :)
#14985955
@Political Interest , you said in reply to me that;

There would be truly something wrong if technology always did its job. Then we'd truly be in post-modernity. :lol:

I very much appreciate you including me in the discussion.


No problem, in fact, you're one of those people whose opinions and insights matter, and I'm sometimes not ''grounded'' enough to see objectively the bigger picture-which is what i'm working on understanding better, as you know. So thank you.


Political tradtionalism of the type espoused by Evola and Dugin would appear to be its own type of modernity. I understand their critique of modern civilisation but perhaps it is not so much modernity but the type of modernity we have now. Why not create an alternative modernity instead of rejecting it altogether?


I think that just as we can distinguish between ''Science'' and ''Scientism'', the latter being an ideology or even ersatz religion about Science, we can also distinguish between Modern times and ''Modernism'', which is appropriately enough an ideology involving Scientism and what I call ''Techno-Fetishism'', and should probably include Capitalism as one of it's features as well. Bottom line is that one can be a Modern and a ''Traditionalist'' in some fashion, as I can elaborate a little bit on shortly.

I very much agree with you that the tradition of faith is the eternal tradition. We can hold onto this even if the world around us never stops changing.


Yes, when one has possession of a message that one regards as eternally valid, the times may change and you with them, but you'll still hold to the Message and conform your modern life with It, and not It with your modern life. Some things about the human condition haven't changed, and that's a good and bad thing sometimes.



If only we had real thinkers and dreamers again. The latter part of the 20th century has not produced any real profound thinking. A lot has been written about the condition of man, a lot of which leads to nihilism and cynicism whereas very little has been written about what we can do to change it.


I have the suspicion that the real thinkers and dreamers are out there, but right now the world is listening and watching other people. When the times are right they'll be listened to.


We're starting to see that these illusions are leading people to dangerous and self-destructive behaviour. Sooner or later someone is going to have to say something.


Oh absolutely, not out of any armchair reactionary thinking but out of simple love and concern for one's fellow man, we'll have to roll up our sleeves and get busy helping these people whether they see it as help or not.


I dare say it even requires that such an elite be educated. From what I know of England the elite are not very well educated or more importantly in possession of wisdom. A good elite must be well read, amicable and resolute but the current Western elite are none of these.


Historically, that's when there has been a turnover in the membership of the Elites, because the old and ossified rulers of a society cannot or will not do what is necessary.



If more people would start to read then these little internet republics could become real ones.


Yes, as per the 200 years of various revolutions which have swept the world.

The only problem is that this could herald a rise in pseudo intellectual activity. The Alt-Right are a perfect example of what happens when people who aren't very intellectual pick up books and start to play Dostoevsky, or perhaps we should say Hitler. Malić has addressed very well this issue of how these types of pseudo intellectual start to advocate some type of totalitarian fantasy which if enacted in practice would lead to genocide. In other words ideas and books become intellectual toys for bored cynical Westerners who cannot cope with the post-modern crisis.


I won't deny the temptation is there, and I'm sure i'm not the only one, that has an wild Anarchistic strain to them which wants to smash it all to pieces, ''immanentize the eschaton'' and impatiently wipe the slate clean, but that simply isn't the right thing to do, not the responsible thing.

I think we need real people of good heart, very grounded people to be intellectuals. But sadly everyone now is dreaming of himself as Lenin or Hitler and so the intellectual shift away from liberalism produces something that is just as bad if not arguably worse in some instances.


Definitely people of good heart.


These young people need books and dreams but grounded in the goodness of their hearts.


Fortunately, I think some of the younger people still have a bit of idealism to them.



I'll write you a more thorough response soon.


Sure, like I indicated, I've no problem with constructive criticism at all. Now, in response to what has partly been a bout of cynicism and pessimism, you wrote;



You must not give up hope.


I won't. Sometimes though I find myself at an intellectual and/or spiritual road block, and I swerve to one side or another trying to work out the full consequences of an impasse.


This was something I thought about some year or two ago. I realised that the reason Western elites were weary of Russia and sought to portray her as Asiatic or foreign could not only have arisen from real Asian influences on Russian identity and culture, there was another factor. It was perhaps that the Eastern Slavs and especially those of Russia respresented a type of frontier, the barbarians who had not been civilised by the Roman or Latin world. The influence of Mongol rule and Russia's eastern location preserved the barbarian character of the Slavs living there. I understand that there are tremendous Turkic and Finnic influences in Russia as well, but it would appear that Moscow is the last bastion of the European barbarian identity. The Russian people are rooted in their land, traditions and faith, not emasculated or ruled by money and status anxiety. Part of me wonders if in our own way, we feel drawn to Russia, whether we are left or right, because there is a part of us that recognises ourselves in Russia. But I would not want to compare myself to such a great people. All I can say is this, money is absolutely of no object to me. I only care about honour and my worth as a person or man.


I agree, although i'd rather emphasize that Russia had another civilization, the Western, imposed upon it from above during the time of Tsar Peter, and I believe now after Communism Russia is gradually finding it's own way... To me as an Orthodox Christian, Russia is still ''Holy Rus'' at it's core, and yes even the ''Third Rome'', the final Orthodox Christian Society on Earth. This makes it something different than Western civilization, to be sure.

It's Barbarian, at least in relation to the West, and even America still has some elements of barbarism about it. Money isn't worth much to me either, ironically, and honor and my worth and other's worth personally as people is what's important. Freedom is what the Barbarian is all about in many respects, and I don't think one has to be some kind of Anarchist or Outlaw to realize that ideal of freedom, I think Socialists-who are about economic freedom from personal exploitation-are of this same camp.
#14986528
Again, there is a reason why this thread is in the ''Paternalism and Corporatism'' sub-forum and not somewhere else, like the ''Anarchist'' sub-forum, which I hope I have explained to the satisfaction of most.

''Paternal'', because the basis of the real State as opposed to the modern one, is Fatherhood, either literal or personally extended to a Domain of sovereign right. Can it be somewhat collective or communitarian? Sure, and I believe that people thrown back on their private resources are forced if for no other reason to cooperate with each other to a degree that is impossible in modern society, which is generally anonymous. A true personal regime, popular and charismatic, is probably going to be a Socialist one.

But man is no cog in a machine, or a piano key to be played upon to render music, metaphorically speaking. Not in an Earthly sense. Real Rulership is charismatic anyway as I stated, and needs not an artificial regimentation to work successfully. Regimentation actually sets in when belief dies, as Culture gives way to Civilization which is the ossification of life.

If this is Barbarism, let then people make the most of it. ''Collapse'', I have come to believe, is not so much a negative thing, as a transition between socio-economic realities, whether one chooses to think of it as an evolving upward spiral of progress or as a cycle. This phase period is historically marked in my opinion by increasing instances of people having to fall back on private and personal structures, including informal networks outside State institutions, in order to survive. Revolution and revolt, civil disorder, wars and such disturbances, are just the surface phenomena of man's attempts to be free, even at the unfortunate cost of savagery and outrages. Man is a sinner, a slave to sin and thus ''victim'' to a compatibilistic determinism as regards his fate.
#14987135
One thing about a free man, or one who tries to be and remain so, is that servile, degenerate unmanly,cowardly, evil and unjust thoughts and actions move such a man to fury. Often when he discovers such thoughts and actions in himself and others, his zeal for righteousness consumes him and he is moved to fight in whatever way he finds morally and practically best.

Probably not considered a ''Gentleman''. Probably not considered in today's corrupt and ossified world to be ''Civilized''. Probably considered to be a marginalized and probably rustic rube out on the edges of polite and modern society.

Such men and their kindred spirits care not, even if they are a few and forgotten.
#14994504
annatar1914 wrote:One thing about a free man, or one who tries to be and remain so, is that servile, degenerate unmanly,cowardly, evil and unjust thoughts and actions move such a man to fury. Often when he discovers such thoughts and actions in himself and others, his zeal for righteousness consumes him and he is moved to fight in whatever way he finds morally and practically best.

Probably not considered a ''Gentleman''. Probably not considered in today's corrupt and ossified world to be ''Civilized''. Probably considered to be a marginalized and probably rustic rube out on the edges of polite and modern society.

Such men and their kindred spirits care not, even if they are a few and forgotten.


These types of men are hardmen of the classic sense. You don't find many of them in today's world but I think you could still encounter such people in the middle of the 20th century.

They're not people who compromise on questions of honour, for them it is honour before their life. In fact it is only honour which makes life worth anything to them in the most real sense.

Modern civilisation and in particular post-modern civilisation is depriving us of any sense of honour or ruggedness. Westerners and especially those in the Anglosphere have become completely mercantile. There's no sense of a higher purpose or right and wrong. I think it has produced a very effete and cowardly menality. There's no romance or a sense of one's need for redemption nor a desire for the human person to be sanctified.

It is difficult to put into words but there is a severe absence of any angst or discomfort at the moral state of the world. The average Westerner really doesn't care what their governments do to either themselves or to other peoples around the world. There has just been a horrifying act of mass murder in Christchurch which while condemned in the immediate aftermath will probably be forgotten in a few months. A few status updates on social media and that is the end of it.

There is no true outrage at the state of the world or a desire to change it as a matter of personal or national honour.

All I can say is there is simply a lack of angst about questions of honour and duty which is what allows degeneracy and cowardice to spread so widely.

To be a barbarian is to live without the assuredness or ability to wait. To be a barbarian you must act and always be living who you are to the fullest extent at all moments. It is a way of life that allows no room for any state but the fullest effort into being a full human person.

The barbarians who never gave up and never will:

'Black Raven'

#14994506
These types of men are hardmen of the classic sense. You don't find many of them in today's world but I think you could still encounter such people in the middle of the 20th century.


Oh yes, my grandfather's generation to an extent, but not many after. I saw more in my Eurasian travels though.

They're not people who compromise on questions of honour, for them it is honour before their life. In fact it is only honour which makes life worth anything to them in the most real sense.



A man has in my opinion his good name, his reputation among the people in the circles he moves in. If this is damaged or outright ruined, he must restore the balance or have it restored for him.

Modern civilisation and in particular post-modern civilisation is depriving us of any sense of honour or ruggedness. Westerners and especially those in the Anglosphere have become completely mercantile. There's no sense of a higher purpose or right and wrong. I think it has produced a very effete and cowardly menality. There's no romance or a sense of one's need for redemption nor a desire for the human person to be sanctified.


Just so, they don't even recall having a soul that needs saving, and wallow in their unstable passions like swine.

It is difficult to put into words but there is a severe absence of any angst or discomfort at the moral state of the world. The average Westerner really doesn't care what their governments do to either themselves or to other peoples around the world. There has just been a horrifying act of mass murder in Christchurch which while condemned in the immediate aftermath will probably be forgotten in a few months. A few status updates on social media and that is the end of it.


People are being programed for a series of new crusades, with the ''infidel Muslim'' as the designated enemy, which is why he was brought into Western lands to begin with in my opinion-to facilitate a reaction.

There is no true outrage at the state of the world or a desire to change it as a matter of personal or national honour.


''true'' outrage is key, because all of the anger and angst at the state of modern life is being channeled into ends that the Elites favor.

All I can say is there is simply a lack of angst about questions of honour and duty which is what allows degeneracy and cowardice to spread so widely.


They require some to be Serfs, so cowardice and degeneracy are ''necessary'', while the better sort of people can be channeled into being the praetorian guard and crusaders for the aims of the ruling class.
To be a barbarian is to live without the assuredness or ability to wait. To be a barbarian you must act and always be living who you are to the fullest extent at all moments. It is a way of life that allows no room for any state but the fullest effort into being a full human person.


Yes, a full immediacy of experience, life lived for true purposes!

The barbarians who never gave up and never will:

'Black Raven'



Cossacks! :D

Saw the series :) Haven't read the book ''Quiet flows the Don'' yet :hmm:

You ''get it'' my friend, thank you.
#14994552
annatar1914 wrote:Oh yes, my grandfather's generation to an extent, but not many after. I saw more in my Eurasian travels though.


Believe it or not I have even encountered it in England, though few and far between of course.

annatar1914 wrote:A man has in my opinion his good name, his reputation among the people in the circles he moves in. If this is damaged or outright ruined, he must restore the balance or have it restored for him.


Agreed. I would add that it is not merely a case of his name but his fundmantel sense of himself. It is not a question perhaps of how he is seen by society but of who he himself really is.

annatar1914 wrote:Just so, they don't even recall having a soul that needs saving, and wallow in their unstable passions like swine.


It would appear that a lot of people are simply content to be awful. I mean in all honesty is there no shame or sense of angst at this? I'm sure that would be a start.

annatar1914 wrote:People are being programed for a series of new crusades, with the ''infidel Muslim'' as the designated enemy, which is why he was brought into Western lands to begin with in my opinion-to facilitate a reaction.


And he's basically blamed for being true to his traditions and to his religion. Heaven forbid that he not want his daughter getting blind rollicking drunk till four in the morning at some nightclub in Birmingham or London.

annatar1914 wrote:''true'' outrage is key, because all of the anger and angst at the state of modern life is being channeled into ends that the Elites favor.


Which becomes a simulacra of outrage, which in turn leads to hobbyism and nihilism. I think the events in Christchurch are symptomatic of it.

annatar1914 wrote:They require some to be Serfs, so cowardice and degeneracy are ''necessary'', while the better sort of people can be channeled into being the praetorian guard and crusaders for the aims of the ruling class.


A praetorian guard which they can trick into their service through promises of a secure life or through propaganda.

annatar1914 wrote:Yes, a full immediacy of experience, life lived for true purposes!


Increasingly I realise that I must stop stalling and trying to understand the awkwardness of this existence. I'm alway looking for a framework and trying to grasp before I launch myself into this.

But there is no way to grasp life.

We must just live.

Our only certainty is in Christ.

annatar1914 wrote:Cossacks! :D

Saw the series :) Haven't read the book ''Quiet flows the Don'' yet :hmm:


I would love to read both the book and watch the series.

annatar1914 wrote:You ''get it'' my friend, thank you.


I think that we both just know. When we look into the blue sky on an autumn day we just know it.

#14994560
Believe it or not I have even encountered it in England, though few and far between of course.


My experience of England personally so far has been of Heathrow international, so perhaps it has not been representative. ;)



Agreed. I would add that it is not merely a case of his name but his fundmantel sense of himself. It is not a question perhaps of how he is seen by society but of who he himself really is.


True, although I was thinking more of a man's comrades and family, than larger society as a whole who cannot know anyone that well.



It would appear that a lot of people are simply content to be awful. I mean in all honesty is there no shame or sense of angst at this? I'm sure that would be a start.


Some shame, if not guilt, would be a little productive I think. Modern Capitalist society tends to atomize and alienate people from each other, enable them to withdraw into fantasy-lands all their own (all the more to cater to them as consumers of specific tailored goods and services)


And he's basically blamed for being true to his traditions and to his religion. Heaven forbid that he not want his daughter getting blind rollicking drunk till four in the morning at some nightclub in Birmingham or London.


Absolutely, it produces an understandable reaction on the part of fathers and mothers from more moral societies coming into the West.



Which becomes a simulacra of outrage, which in turn leads to hobbyism and nihilism. I think the events in Christchurch are symptomatic of it.


I think so too. If this guy haden't been doing this he'd probably be face down on the ground drunk or high like many of the rest, probably dreaming of such savage outbursts but little else. He was made, directly or indirectly.



A praetorian guard which they can trick into their service through promises of a secure life or through propaganda.


Some will join out of being given the power of life or death over others, and the pay and smattering of ideological justification is the icing on the cake.



Increasingly I realise that I must stop stalling and trying to understand the awkwardness of this existence. I'm alway looking for a framework and trying to grasp before I launch myself into this.

But there is no way to grasp life.

We must just live.

Our only certainty is in Christ.


Pray, and know that you are prayed for, my friend.



I would love to read both the book and watch the series.



I think that we both just know. When we look into the blue sky on an autumn day we just know it.



:)
#15001011
As I think i've said before, it's not a matter of ''if?'' these things happen, but ''when?''.

So in a very important sense, the collapse of world civilization being a certainty, the discussion of politics and the economy comes down to a matter of not just scale, but natural type, with autarky being the general rule as in the past.

This may not preserve artificial values related to the patronage of the technologically advanced, to the patronage of the modern State, but to the time-hallowed cultural values held by the greater part of humanity everywhere and for the majority of historical time.

It is therefore a distinction almost without a difference for example, if one believes in the sort of future @Victoribus Spolia talks of, and those of us who will live in that world, because it's still coming like it or not.

Consider a thought experiment; think of the possibility that a number of our modern Elites have come to the same conclusions that @Victoribus Spolia has, or for that matter anyone on the conservative or libertarian/objectivist/anarchist spectrum such as Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, Ludwig von Mises, Bastiat, Spooner, Tucker, etc... Are such powerful private citizens going to allow the death throes of this civilization and the state which has sustained it maim mankind in it's ruin, if they can help it?

No, they will hollow the State out, ignore it, provide private services more in keeping with a personalist ethos rather than a collectivist/statist one.
#15006771
An example of the sort of thing I'm talking about on this thread;

https://theillinoisseparation.com/

https://www.newillinoisstate.org/

Where basically the rural and small town red state Illinois which is underrepresented in every way via the numerical dominance of urban blue state Chicago metropolitan area (which is yet physically dependent on them), wants a mutual political separation and the creation of two new states from one. Because that's what they really are in fact.

This is also a thing in the US state of California;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition ... California

Again, a more rural hinterland having nothing in common with the urban megalopolis areas, and terribly unrepresented by them.

And speaking of Barbarian tribes directly also, the American Indian Crow Nation is winning too;

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-we ... le-related

https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-we ... nting-case

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