[XogGyux]

Cubans used about 2% as much oil per capita as Americans living in Florida. And the way that Cuba got there is probably the only way - by losing the freedom to consume this environmental disaster.

They used little because they had nearly none. Not because it was some sort of progressive shit. If you drop a few hundred nuclear bombs around the world, I am pretty sure we can cut the oil usage per capita to 0%. The idea is stupid. There is no wisdom or glory, in this case, doing something that basically they were forced to do by the circumstances. This is unsustainable in the long run because humans do not tend to like leaving like animals. If you tell me we should all think about our future and promote renewable energies I'll support you but what you are saying right now, is non-sense.

Since the Special Period, Cuba has seriously de-industrialized and de-modernized.

Yes. Let's all go to a less industrial and less modern world. Let's go back to our caves.

Once again, as a school for future survivors of ecological collapse, Cuba is an Ivy League university.

Hilarious

[QatzelOk]

If you drop a few hundred nuclear bombs around the world, I am pretty sure we can cut the oil usage per capita to 0%. The idea is stupid. There is no wisdom or glory, in this case, doing something that basically they were forced to do by the circumstances.

If glory is what you are looking for, there's always Las Vegas or Monaco.

What Cuba has demonstrated is that life goes on, even after oil and industry have collapsed.

But ONLY if you have collective solidarity.

Most civlizations in world history collapse when their situation changes because they lose their collective soldarity. And this is where the world stands now at this point of history: pre-collapse.

I understand that you like having a lot of stuff, and that you find people who are poorer than yourself are losers. I have met many people with this worldview in my time.

But it's a rapidly declining worldview because we live in a rapidly declining world - and hyper-consumption, like the kind you admire - is the reason we're done.

[XogGyux]

If glory is what you are looking for, there's always Las Vegas or Monaco.

What Cuba has demonstrated is that life goes on, even after oil and industry have collapsed.

But ONLY if you have collective solidarity.

Most civlizations in world history collapse when their situation changes because they lose their collective soldarity. And this is where the world stands now at this point of history: pre-collapse.

I understand that you like having a lot of stuff, and that you find people who are poorer than yourself are losers. I have met many people with this worldview in my time.

But it's a rapidly declining worldview because we live in a rapidly declining world - and hyper-consumption, like the kind you admire - is the reason we're done.

Did you really need evidence that humanity could exist outside of civilization? Do you really think that such question requires experimentation with people's lifes to see if its possible and you think this is justified that happened in cuba because now you know?
Why do you ignore that humanity did not evolve in this planet as a civilization... so yes, we could live in caves and eat grass and hunt animals.... We didn't need to bring this dictatorship to cuba, see it be destroyed to make the statement "see? cubans can survive with a tiny fraction of the resources that we use..." this is silly and cruel.
If you care about humanity that much, I suggest you re-focus your strengths into finding ways to make our resources more plentiful rather than trying to reduce our ambitions. Go ask for your politicians and put some pressure on research on nuclear fusion energy production, in genetic modification and on artificial mass produced lab-grown food. Attacking the demand for these things resources rather than finding ways to provide a supply of those resources is impractical.
You are suggesting that Thanos snap half of life out of the universe (reduce demand) when he could have snapped into existence twice the resources just as easily (increase supply).

[QatzelOk]

Did you really need evidence that humanity could exist outside of civilization? Do you really think that such question requires experimentation with people's lifes to see if its possible and you think this is justified that happened in cuba because now you know?
Why do you ignore that humanity did not evolve in this planet as a civilization... so yes, we could live in caves and eat grass and hunt animals.... We didn't need to bring this dictatorship to cuba, see it be destroyed to make the statement "see? cubans can survive with a tiny fraction of the resources that we use..." this is silly and cruel.
If you care about humanity that much, I suggest you re-focus your strengths into finding ways to make our resources more plentiful rather than trying to reduce our ambitions. Go ask for your politicians and put some pressure on research on nuclear fusion energy production, in genetic modification and on artificial mass produced lab-grown food. Attacking the demand for these things resources rather than finding ways to provide a supply of those resources is impractical.
You are suggesting that Thanos snap half of life out of the universe (reduce demand) when he could have snapped into existence twice the resources just as easily (increase supply).

This is all over the place.

Civilization is what "allowed" humans to consume far more than the earth can actually produce. And this over-consumption is going to hurt billions, and maybe drive humankind to extinction.

And you are still pining for MOAR consumption?

I think this demonstrates how out of touch your worldview is with ontological reality. The entire planet needs to consume LESS if humans are to continue to exist. And so much of what we consume (SUVs, tonnes of meat) are easily eliminated without any pain, and lots of gain.

You just need to ba adaptable... if you don't want to go extinct. Cuban society has demonstrated stellar adaptability to extreme changes. Brazil lived under military-dictatorship-capitalism for most of its independence and doesn't have any doctors for its rural regions., and its cities are no-go zones of homeless kids sniffing glue under bridges.

The rich west is extremely brittle and wouldn't last a day without its huge piles of stolen money.

[XogGyux]

This is all over the place.

Civilization is what "allowed" humans to consume far more than the earth can actually produce. And this over-consumption is going to hurt billions, and maybe drive humankind to extinction.

Wrong. Civilization, technology is what has allowed us to produce more than we can consume. This is how we have progressively moved away from starvation. Sure, we have not completely eradicated starvation, in fact, we have a sizable chunk to address still, but this has been reduced significantly from pre-historic times.

And you are still pining for MOAR consumption?

I don't know what you mean with "MOAR". More perhaps? I have no issue with consumption. I have an issue with irresponsibility. You can have as much production and consumption as you can and it wouldn't be bad. In fact, I'd argue that the more the better. What is wrong is ignoring our problems and stick the head in the sand like the stereotypical ostrich.
In the late 1800's "civilization" was booming to such extent that people were starting to get very worried about horse manure in the streets of cities such as new york and London. The Times newspaper said

“In 50 years, every street in London will be buried under nine feet of manure.”

Civilization created that problem and civilization solved it with cars. This is how it's been through our history and this is how it will continue to be for a very long time. Although cannot be predicted with 100% certainty, we will have many chances to address our climate change problems. Asking humanity to put aside its most powerful weapon, intellect, the ability to create technology is like asking an elephant to stop using its trunk or a lion to stop using its claws. Technology is what one day could save not only our species but the whole planet if a meteorite were to come into our path or if a supervolcano were to explode.
We need to be more conscious of what we do, clearly burning away fossil fuels like crazy and throwing our plastic into the ocean is not sustainable but the overcorrection that you seem to be advocating for is just as dangerous and unrealistic.

I think this demonstrates how out of touch your worldview is with ontological reality.

LOL "Cuba is great" and I'm the one out of touch.

The entire planet needs to consume LESS if humans are to continue to exist.

You don't know that.

And so much of what we consume (SUVs, tonnes of meat) are easily eliminated without any pain, and lots of gain.

And this is why we barely advance no faster than a snail's pace. Because of people that think big, complex problems can be fixed with cheer goodwill and radical ideas.

Cuban society has demonstrated stellar adaptability to extreme changes.

LOL No. Not to mention that Cuban consuming less does not mean they are not destroying our environment just as much.... Cuba might have way less per-capita cars and per-capita miles driven, but a 50 year old Lada, with no catalytic converter artisanally repaired with whatever they can find produces way more emisions than a fucking hummer. The production of energy per capita in cuba is ~1500, compare that to europe which is ~5,400 this is ~27% of europe's per capita, yet they produce 3tons of carbon emissions per capita compared to 5tons (60%). So they are living in a country of scarcity, with scheduled periods where your house's electricity is completely off, not many people have cars, and after all that sacrifice you are still producing 2/3rd of the emissions... Awesome fucking system.

But hey... if this is what you like, why stop at cuba? why not go all the way... Lets go to North Korean then... They have less than 1/3rd of the energy production per capita that Cuba has and half the carbon footprint... Or we can all do mass suicide and get rid of all of it.

[QatzelOk]

...MOAR...

I'm glad this thread has allowed you to pour your heart out regarding your desire to have more stuff.

You printed a lot of irrelevant ideas here, so I'll try to summarize your thread-related thoughts:

Xog Notes:"I want to have more stuff, so it's good that Cuba pulled its volunteer doctors from all those unserved communities in rural Brazil."

Correct me if any part of this is inaccurate.

And here's a second, more creative interpretation of your generous supply of words in this thread, condensed:

Xog Notes:"Maybe if I talk and think like a bankster or corporate PR person, I will become as rich as those well-dressed people on the sitcoms I watch."

[Rancid]

Fake news? Looks like some of those doctors don't want to go back to Cuba.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-tns-bc-cubandoctors-20190208-story.html

[Pants-of-dog]

For purely selfish reasons, the US should snatch them up. Cuba has already paid to train them, and the USA could always use more health care professionals.

[QatzelOk]

For purely selfish reasons, the US should snatch them up. Cuba has already paid to train them, and the USA could always use more health care professionals.

Stealing doctors from Cuba, oil from Iraq-Libya-Venezuela.... there are no real rules to behavior when profit is your only motive.

That's how North America genocided so many nations: through the power of profit-over-laws.

When one dollar gets you one vote, genocides happen. Genocides of people who don't have "a dollar."

[skinster]

My Cali frand is in Cuba again, sharing colourful photos. Makes me want to be there again.

[Rancid]

For purely selfish reasons, the US should snatch them up. Cuba has already paid to train them, and the USA could always use more health care professionals.

That certainly is an American tradition. They also do it with scientists and engineers. Though, I think more recently the scientist and engineers that they steal are just staying in the US rather than going back to their native country.

[QatzelOk]

By punching holes in the rest of the world's lifeboats, the American yacht is able to rescue all the doctors and engineers from certain doom.

Though only about 1% of Americans are actually aboard that yacht, the rest may be employed as hole-punchers, and then come back heroes.

[Rancid]

By punching holes in the rest of the world's lifeboats, the American yacht is able to rescue all the doctors and engineers from certain doom.

Though only about 1% of Americans are actually aboard that yacht.

I've been enjoying your posting style lately.

[XogGyux]

I'm glad this thread has allowed you to pour your heart out regarding your desire to have more stuff.

You printed a lot of irrelevant ideas here, so I'll try to summarize your thread-related thoughts:

Xog Notes:"I want to have more stuff, so it's good that Cuba pulled its volunteer doctors from all those unserved communities in rural Brazil."

Correct me if any part of this is inaccurate.

And here's a second, more creative interpretation of your generous supply of words in this thread, condensed:

Xog Notes:"Maybe if I talk and think like a bankster or corporate PR person, I will become as rich as those well-dressed people on the sitcoms I watch."

I see that rather than discuss a topic you retort with false pseudo-quoting and manure smearing.
Of the two of us, I am being the sincere one. I have provided facts of the real situation in Cuba as well as my experience including my analysis of why that place is shit and I will not be returning anytime soon. You, in the other hand behave hypocritical, praise the shitty system while living cozily in your 1st world country and only drop there with $$ for a short vacation and plenty of liberties that the very people that are hosting you lack.

Fake news? Looks like some of those doctors don't want to go back to Cuba.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/sns-tns-bc-cubandoctors-20190208-story.html

Of course, they don't want to. A small minority might actually buy into the propaganda of the government but after close to 80 years of this shit the Cuban people are starting to notice. Certainly, the better educated (such as a physician) do understand that they are being conned. Not all can do anything about it, the goverment oftentimes hold family of those that defect hostage. Not to the degree that North Korean, but certainly can put enough of a deterrent. One of my colleagues at work was a mission doctor and defected in a latin-American country and then traveled to the US via Mexican border. For many years he was banned from visiting cuba to see his family and his family was banned from leaving the country to any other country.

For purely selfish reasons, the US should snatch them up. Cuba has already paid to train them, and the USA could always use more health care professionals.

I don't think that's the right attitude. I certainly think the most influential and democratic nations should provide as much help and/or support to those oppressed trying to defect (aka these doctors). I don't think the motivation should be to "fuck the Cuban government". That has never worked (embargo) and only serves to fuel their repressive system by means of scapegoating. I honestly think opening the gates and flooding Cuba with tourists and the vision of democracy will go much farther than keeping strict restrictions and shunning them.

[Pants-of-dog]

The US is not involved in order to help Cubans. It is involved in order to help the US.

[QatzelOk]

The US is not involved in order to help Cubans. It is involved in order to help the US.

Exactly. And USA resident XogGyux wants us to believe that, because Cuba isn't as rich as the USA, anything goes when it comes to relations with that independent nation.

Sanctions and bombing are just two of the "improvements" that NATO has used on countries that "weren't as rich as the USA."

Thing is, Cubans have better universal health care, medicine, and housing (unlike the USA), have more free time to spend with their families and communities, and so on.

What he is really complaining about is that.... rich people had to be eliminated to make a higher quality of life possible for the masses. As a former rich person, he is not willing to give up any of his wealth or privileges to help the masses.

Most rich people are like this, which is why they can't really be part of the solution. Anywhere.

[XogGyux]

Exactly. And USA resident XogGyux wants us to believe that, because Cuba isn't as rich as the USA, anything goes when it comes to relations with that independent nation.

That is completely false.
First, im a citizen and not a resident but thats besides the point.
Second, it is not that Cuba "isent" rich that makes it a shithole. It is that the government is undemocratic, corrupt and repressive that makes it a shithole.
Although a general rule, there is a correlation between corrupt/undemocratic/repressive governments and population wealth but it is the corruption/anti-democracy/repressiveness that ultimately makes them shitholes.

Thing is, Cubans have better universal health care, medicine, and housing (unlike the USA), have more free time to spend with their families and communities, and so on.

Bull shit. I already explained to you how universal healthcare in Cuba is a sham. A health care power does not have to recycle disposable scalpels to the point they lose the edge. Healthcare powerhouses do not have to deal with empty pharmacies, hospitals in this condition:
https://panampost.com/belen-marty/2015/ ... ts-to-see/
or fucking cholera:
http://jemaclinic.com/cholera-in-cuba/
The evidence does not support your propaganda.
Housing in Cuba? A fucking joke. Do you have an idea what a "solar" is? And no, im not talking about solar power. In cuba, there were are many large colonial mansions left standing that are 100-200+ years old. These large houses oftentimes had very large interior patios, tall ceilings and many rooms (commonly 8-12 but sometimes more) which were relatively large compared to a typical US bedroom. Over the years, these large houses have become "solares" in which many family live in the single house. Usually get get 1-2 bedrooms of the larger house and those 1-2 bedrooms become their "home". As a result, you end up with 10+ families living in a single house! The house offcourse is extremely old and fragile, despite the superb architecture and quality of contruction of colonial times, these houses have not received any meaningful maintenance for many decades and are in awful conditions. They pose a serious risk. Not to mention that because they were never designed to house individual families they often lack bathrooms for all families (so families end up sharing bathrooms or even doing their stuff in buckets that they keep inside their rooms) and electrical wiring is often hanging around because they were added later and were not integrated inside the walls, so obviously these also pose a major risk for people.
Just search "solares en cuba" and rejoice.
https://cubanosporelmundo.com/2017/03/3 ... colectivo/

Pay attention in the video above. Every window is protected by metal bars. This is not the behavior of people that are enjoying living with each other, these is the behavior of people that are trying to protect what little they have from being stolen by their very own neightboors. Did you notice the stepper stairs around minute 3:56? it has a fucking chain and a fucking padlock... why? to avoid somebody stealing this old, rusty stair... because some people in cuba will steal anything.
Living in these conditions is not a great achievement of people that are striving to protect our planet from runaway consumerism that should be celebrated. They are merely surviving and are a victim of an oppressive, lying, undemocratic government.

What he is really complaining about is that.... rich people had to be eliminated to make a higher quality of life possible for the masses. As a former rich person, he is not willing to give up any of his wealth or privileges to help the masses.

Who the fuck told you I was a rich person. ROFL keep making shit up. Didn't I tell you that my mother's salary was in the order of $25 USD and she was basically at the "top" except for those that work in the tourism sector?
You are making shit up. This is borderline pathological. I don't know how you get this brainwashed.
Of the two of us, I am the one being consistent. Cuba is a shithole, I am not returning there to live there for as long as the current shitty system persist. Meanwhile you are praising the crap out of that place where you only visit and never actually live. There is a major difference beween visiting alcatraz and seeing how prisoners lived there than actually living there as a prisoner. I dare you to switch places to any person that lives in a cuban solar and do their jobs for what they get paid. I dare you, if only for 1year time. I promess you, whoever you switch places with, will not want to switch places back after 1 year

[Sivad]

best thread ever.

[Sivad]

But hey... if this is what you like, why stop at cuba? why not go all the way... Lets go to North Korean then...

Don't get them started on NK, they fucking love NK.

[QatzelOk]

...large colonial mansions...

The vast majority of people in any country DON'T live in large colonial mansions. Maintenance of these kinds of structures is extremely expensive.

The only thing that's more costly to maintain than large colonial mansions is the large colonial vassals who used to live in them.

No society can afford to maintain insatiable rich people who work with foreign countries against their own people. And no one has attacked the Cuban people in this thread more than you - a former large colonial.