Judge Finds Father Guilty of ‘Family Violence’ for Not Using Transgender Teen’s Preferred Pronouns - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15003657
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, no.

If your only source is people with obvious political biases, would that make you wonder about the veracity of the story?
Here is a reference to the story sourced from a pro-lgbt website https://www.advocate.com/transgender/2019/5/02/judge-accuses-anti-transgender-father-gender-violence . I think that while some people might have congenital chromosomal disorders , or what not , that makes them feel an incongruity between their outer form and their innermost being , in terms of gender identity , as Third Term alluded to , I know of some persons whom have come to regret transitioning via sex change operations.
So I feel that discretion , and deliberation should be taken before life altering treatments are taken , since some could have underlying issues which can mimic gender identity disorder . https://www.rightdiagnosis.com/g/gender_identity_disorder/misdiag.htm , https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5978515/Up-150-youngsters-treated-puberty-blocking-jabs-not-transgender.html . The last link is especially pertinent , as autistic people have been known to be especially prone to gender divergence . https://autismawarenesscentre.com/autism-transgender-gender-dysphoria/ ,
. Speaking as to myself , I fall on what's known as the higher functioning end of the autistic spectrum , what used to be called Asperger's syndrome , and I find myself to be agender https://www.bustle.com/articles/109255-what-does-agender-mean-6-things-to-know-about-people-with-non-binary-identities , yet my result on this online test http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/sage/test.htm had me as being a transwoman whom is uncertain as to my ability to transition . I was like I don't think so . :lol: At any rate , gender is complicated , and we are just starting to understand the full range of gender expression , and what goes into determining how gender manifests itself in a person . Basically though , it is thought to involve differences in brain structure https://psychcentral.com/news/2018/03/16/structural-brain-differences-for-transgender-people/133802.html .
#15003666
Pants-of-dog wrote:.
It is an appeal to emotion.


you'd think that you would get one right at least once by now but nope. :lol: Establishing motive is not an appeal to emotion, it's just taking what we now about people and determining the most likely reason for their behavior. In this case it's far more likely that the father was acting out of concern for his daughter and his society in his attempt to raise public awareness of state enforced quackery. Given what we know about people it is rather unlikely that he was trying to sensationalize his family's troubles out of spite and a desire for celebrity.

Again, the evidence seems to indicate that he was shopping his story around and trying to get alrge media imvolved.


That's what you do when you're trying to raise public awareness, that doesn't in any way make his motives suspect.
#15003676
Pants-of-dog wrote:The logic behind Justice Bowden’s decisions would be in his ruling, not the second judge’s.

Right, and a few pages back I gave you a link to that judgment and asked you to show his justification. Yet after several posts of useless back and forth, here you are, musing about your own confusion. I've metaphorically spoon-fed you my points several times, but you just can't be bothered to pay attention and have an actual good faith argument.
#15003722
Drlee wrote:I am sorry you are unable to understand my posts. Ask someone for help.


:lol:

Anyway, you aksed a series of questions that boil down to “what if the child regrets it?”.

So, what if?

First of all, this does not excuse the father’s action in any way nor does it repudiate the findings of the courts.

Also, i wonder if this is pertinent to this case. I would expect that those who regret transitioning from one gender to another often share certain characteristics that, in hindsight, make it clear why transitioning was not a good idea. Does this particular child exhibit any of those characteristics?

Finally, I would simply ask how often people regret transitioning from one gender to another. This is brought up quite often by critics of transgender transitioning. Because of this frequency, I would expect that the statistics are easy to come by, and that this is a significant number.

—————————

Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Right, and a few pages back I gave you a link to that judgment and asked you to show his justification. Yet after several posts of useless back and forth, here you are, musing about your own confusion. I've metaphorically spoon-fed you my points several times, but you just can't be bothered to pay attention and have an actual good faith argument.


Oh I see.

You wanted me to support a specific claim that I never made, and using an specific source that I did not choose.

I apologise, but I hope you can understand why it did not occur to me that you wanted me to support this other argument using some specific source, neither of which were part of my argument.

Here I was, thinking I was helping by explaining to you where you can find the evidence you may need for whatever argument you are making.

If you like, I can try to answer this question for you, but I would need some clarification on what exactly you think is not justified.

Looking back on the thread, you are somewhat vague on what this is. At one point, you simply ask me to use that specific pdf to support my claim. Please note that I supported it with text that you quoted from the second ruling.

If that is the new standard of evidence, I can add to my previous argument and show exactly how the father tried to deny access to medical treatment:

From page 10:

    [43] There is some evidence that indicates the A.B.’s father is somewhat disingenuous in seeking to present more scientific evidence relating to gender transition treatment. Rather, some evidence suggests that he has been delaying proceedings as a way of preventing his son from obtaining the gender transition treatment that he seeks.

    [44] After informing the clinic at BCCH on August 19, 2018 that he was opposed to the proposed hormone therapy, notwithstanding the consent signed by A.B., the treatment was postponed. The clinic’s social worker then tried on numerous occasions to arrange a meeting between A.B.’s father and Dr. Hursh. In response to one of the requests by the social worker, A.B.’s father wrote on October 22, 2018 that he could not meet because of scheduled hip surgery. He also said that while he did not agree with the proposed hormone therapy he had decided that he would not try and block the medical treatment and would honour that decision movingforward. The social worker was again unsuccessful in arranging a meeting with the father. On December 1, 2018 the clinic wrote to the father indicating that they would commence the treatment after December 15, 2018 as A.B.had the exclusive right to consent to it. The father then commenced proceedings in the Provincial Court.

    [45] In the Provincial Court on January 28, 2019, the father argued that the matter could not be heard that day and that he needed to commence proceedings in the Supreme Court under the Infants Act. The Provincial Court then ordered a continuation of the injunction described earlier in these reasons.

    [46] Between January 28, 2019 and February 6, 2019 the father did not commence proceedings in this court.

    47] On February 7, 2019, A.B. initiated proceedings under the Family Law Act seeking the treatment that he believes he urgently needs. The father filed a response but no evidence in relation to A.B.’s claim.

Please note that the father did not present any evidence whatsoever at any time during any of the proceedings, did not meet with the doctor, and simply sought to delay treatment.

This is preventing access to medical treatment, and is part of the reason for the finding of family violence.

———————————

Anyway, the evidence already presented in this thread show that the pronoun usage was not an isolated event that was then defined as family violence all by itself.
#15003724
Pants-of-dog wrote:You wanted me to support a specific claim that I never made, and using an specific source that I did not choose.

You might as well be a forum debate generator. :lol:

Pants-of-dog wrote:This is preventing access to medical treatment, and is part of the reason for the finding of family violence.

It has nothing to do with pronoun usage. Try again.
#15003726
I will only continue when you clarify what exactly your argument is.

I have been more than respectful and supported each of my claims and have addressed yours as honestly as possible.

Please clarify exactly what your criticism is and I will happily address it. Thank you.
#15003728
A
nyway, you aksed a series of questions that boil down to “what if the child regrets it?”.



Wrong. I did not such thing. Please post where I said that. My argument was quite different from that. It actually did not hinge on the girl's feelings at all.
#15003729
Drlee wrote:Wrong. I did not such thing. Please post where I said that.


viewtopic.php?f=76&t=176450&start=100#p15003521

Drlee wrote:Y'all do realize that the judge essentially proclaimed this person male. Note that the judge ordered treatment for gender dysphoria and prohibited anyone from discouraging the child from receiving the treatment. Does anyone else see the inherent contradiction in this? What if, in treatment, the child is "cured" and comfortably returns to her birth gender? What then? The judge ruled that the child is male. This is contrary to science and it is beyond his scope of authority. The only person or persons who should make such a decision for a child are properly trained medical doctors.

But Sivad is absolutely correct. The state of the medical science in this field is appalling. It is not so much science as a moral determination. Something like "it is moral to want people to have their own way; science or no science."

....


The bolded series of questions was what I was referring to.

My argument was quite different from that. It actually did not hinge on the girl's feelings at all.


Well, please clarify what your argument is. Most likely, I have already addressed it, since I addressed all your other posts except the free speech one.
#15003731
Does anyone else see the inherent contradiction in this? What if, in treatment, the child is "cured" and comfortably returns to her birth gender? What then? T


As I said. You clearly missed my entire argument. Worse. I explained it to you in the same sentence and you simply ignored it. I wrote:

The judge ruled that the child is male. This is contrary to science and it is beyond his scope of authority. The only person or persons who should make such a decision for a child are properly trained medical doctors.


Got it now? The girl's feelings are irrelevant to the case. What ought to be solely relevant is the science.
#15003737
Drlee wrote:As I said. You clearly missed my entire argument. Worse. I explained it to you in the same sentence and you simply ignored it. I wrote:

Got it now? The girl's feelings are irrelevant to the case. What ought to be solely relevant is the science.


Yes, I have already addressed this.

Please note that Justice Bowden did consult with many doctors. It should also be noted that the child and the mother also consulted medical professionals.

The father did not consult any medical professionals. He hired some for the first trial, and these doctors did not actually examine or meet the child at any point.

So I agree with you that the science is far more relevant than anyone’s feelings.

And please note that the father is the one who has provided the least amount of evidence and has consulted the fewest professionals.

Please see paragraphs 37 and 38 on the 9th page of this PDF:
https://www.docdroid.net/nm1XeFs/bowden ... pdf#page=9
#15003889
Yes, I decided that since we are no longer continuing any debate, I would merely summarise my claims so far, and clarify that no one has refuted them and that they are supported by evidence.

Regardless of what your argument is, and hopefully you will eventually clarify it, the two claims I repeated in my precious pist have been shown to be supported by evidence in this thread, and they have not been shown to be wrong.
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