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By Beren
#15007201
She doesn't deserve being mourned more than she was mourning her premiership today. Her arrogance was especially remarkable, that's how I'll remember her at least.

So move on to the next chapter of the Brexit saga: The Rise of the Clown.

Image
He could be a perfect last PM of the UK.
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By JohnRawls
#15007248
Beren wrote:She doesn't deserve being mourned more than she was mourning her premiership today. Her arrogance was especially remarkable, that's how I'll remember her at least.

So move on to the next chapter of the Brexit saga: The Rise of the Clown.

Image
He could be a perfect last PM of the UK.


The funny thing, people might start to remember Brown and Blair with nostalgia and admiration instead of whining about every mistake that they have done. (Let us be honest compared to Cameron, May, probably Bojo and probably Corbyn after they were not that bad. Economy was growing, situation was stable and the country was relatively content)

Little side note. I do not really think that it matters who will become the leader. I am a firm believer that the system creates or at the least influences its leader.( If there was no Putin for 3rd term then the system would put another Putin in charge) Ideology is the 2nd part of it. BoJos ideology is relatively the same compared to May so i think he will be the same actually. Is he more competent than May? I heavily doubt it.
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By Nonsense
#15007361
JohnRawls wrote:The funny thing, people might start to remember Brown and Blair with nostalgia and admiration instead of whining about every mistake that they have done. (Let us be honest compared to Cameron, May, probably Bojo and probably Corbyn after they were not that bad. Economy was growing, situation was stable and the country was relatively content)

Little side note. I do not really think that it matters who will become the leader. I am a firm believer that the system creates or at the least influences its leader.( If there was no Putin for 3rd term then the system would put another Putin in charge) Ideology is the 2nd part of it. BoJos ideology is relatively the same compared to May so i think he will be the same actually. Is he more competent than May? I heavily doubt it.



Nonsense-

The impression they gave was that the 'Third Way' was the 'feel good' route to political longevity in government.

In fact, as Theresa MAY has learnt to her cost, it always ends in tears.

When Labour were kicked out by the electorate, Liam BYRNE revealed the extent to which people had been conned, by declaring, "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck!"

That degree of incompetency was fuelled by mass uncontrolled migration, with the additional demands it levied on the nation's creditworthiness.

Then there was the PFI, of which Gordon BROWN was responsible for & for which N.H.S patients will be paying of for decades to come at the expense of treatment.

It was BROWN that,along with BLAIR recreated the economic-social divisions in this country, by sucking up to the 'Middle Classes', whilst depriving the lesser able to even have housing to live in, whilst at the same time keeping interest rates artifically low to create a further property boom, in order to generate a 'feel good' factor from declining political popularity.
By B0ycey
#15007364
Nonsense wrote:When Labour were kicked out by the electorate, Liam BYRNE revealed the extent to which people had been conned, by declaring, "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck!"


Funny you write this. I fully expect a similar letter from the Chief Secretary of the treasury after BoJo has pulled us out of the EU, crashed the economy and loses the forecoming general election.

You can blame Labour for spending all the money if you like. But if you knew anything about the 2008 crash you would know that it was the bankers that fucked up the economy not the politicians for once. All the politicians did was bail them out because we rely heavily on the finance sector for our GDP.
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By ingliz
#15007374
Nonsense wrote: "Dear Chief Secretary, I'm afraid there is no money. Kind regards - and good luck!"

A joke.

There is a long tradition, dating back as far as the 1930s, of ministers leaving humorous messages to their successors.

Example:

“Good luck, old cock…. Sorry to leave it in such a mess.”

Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer Reginald Maudling to his Labour replacement James Callaghan, 1964.


:roll:

B0ycey wrote:BoJo

"OK OK, I admit it. If you gave him a truth drug, or hypnotised him, I don't think even the prime minister would really deny it.

This European Union deal is not perhaps everything that we would have liked. It is not what we Eurosceptics were hoping, not when the process kicked off. We were hoping he was going to get really deep down and dirty, in the way that the Bloomberg speech seemed to indicate. He was going to probe the belly of the beast and bring back British sovereignty, like Hercules bringing Eurydice (sic) back from the underworld. I had the impression that this was going to be the beginning of a wholesale repatriation of powers - over fisheries, farming, the social chapter, border controls, you name it: all those political hostages joyfully returning home like the end of Raid on Entebbe.

It was going to be a moment for the ringing of church bells and bonfires on beacons, and union flags flying from every steeple, and peasants blind drunk on non-EU approved scrumpy and beating the hedgerows with staves while singing patriotic songs about Dave the hero.

I don't think we can pretend that this is how things have turned out. This is not a fundamental reform of Britain's position in the EU, and no-one could credibly claim it is.

It is not pointless; it is not wholly insignificant; it is by no means a waste of time. But it will not stop the great machine of EU integration, and it will not stop the production of ever more EU laws - at least some of which will have deleterious effects on the economy of this country and the rest of Europe.

Never mind the Tusk deal; look at the elephant in the room: the great beast still trampling happily on British parliamentary sovereignty, and British democracy. So there are likely to be a significant number of people - perhaps including you - who will feel that in all honour we can now only do one thing.

We said we wanted a reformed EU. We said that if we failed to get reform, then Britain could have a great future outside. We have not got a reformed EU - so: nothing for it, then - ho for the open seas! Viva Brexit! That would seem to be the logic, and yet I wonder if it is wholly correct.

Shut your eyes. Hold your breath. Think of Britain. Think of the rest of the EU. Think of the future. Think of the desire of your children and your grandchildren to live and work in other European countries; to sell things there, to make friends and perhaps to find partners there.

Ask yourself: despite all the defects and disappointments of this exercise - do you really, truly, definitely want Britain to pull out of the EU ? Now? This is a big thing to do, and there is certainly a strong political-philosophical imperative leading us to the door.

We are being outvoted ever more frequently. The ratchet of integration clicks remorselessly forward. More and more questions are now justiciable by the European Court of Justice, including that extraordinary document, the European Charter of Fundamental Rights. This bestows on every one of our 500m EU citizens a legally enforceable right to do all sorts of things across all 28 states: to start a business, to choose any occupation they like, to found any type of religious school, to enjoy "academic freedom". I shudder to think what is going to happen when UK citizens start vindicating these new "rights" in Luxembourg.

There is going to be more and more of this stuff ; and I can see why people might just think, to hell with it. I want out. I want to take back control of our democracy and our country.

If you feel that, I perfectly understand - because half the time I have been feeling that myself. And then the other half of the time, I have been thinking: hmmm. I like the sound of freedom; I like the sound of restoring democracy. But what are the downsides - and here we must be honest.

There are some big questions that the "out" side need to answer. Almost everyone expects there to be some sort of economic shock as a result of a Brexit. How big would it be? I am sure that the doomsters are exaggerating the fallout - but are they completely wrong? And how can we know?

And then there is the worry about Scotland, and the possibility that an English-only "leave" vote could lead to the break-up of the union. There is the Putin factor: we don't want to do anything to encourage more shirtless swaggering from the Russian leader, not in the Middle East, not anywhere.

And then there is the whole geostrategic anxiety. Britain is a great nation, a global force for good. It is surely a boon for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately engaged in the EU. This is a market on our doorstep, ready for further exploitation by British firms: the membership fee seems rather small for all that access.

Why are we so determined to turn our back on it? Shouldn't our policy be like our policy on cake - pro having it and pro eating it? Pro Europe and pro the rest of the world?

If sovereignty is the problem - and it certainly is - then maybe it is worth looking again at the prime minister's deal, because there is a case for saying it is not quite as contemptible as all that. He is the first prime minister to get us out of ever closer union, which is potentially very important with the European Court of Justice and how it interprets EU law. He has some good stuff on competition, and repealing legislation, and on protecting Britain from further integration of the euro group.

Now if this were baked into a real EU treaty, it would be very powerful. Taken together with the sovereignty clauses - which are not wholly platitudinous - you can see the outlines of a new role for Britain: friendly, involved, but not part of the federalist project.

Yes, folks, the deal's a bit of a dud, but it contains the germ of something really good. I am going to muffle my disappointment and back the prime minister."


Boris Johnson, The unpublished Daily Telegraph pro-Remain article, February 19 2016.
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By Nonsense
#15007411
ingliz wrote:A joke.

There is a long tradition, dating back as far as the 1930s, of ministers leaving humorous messages to their successors.

Example:

“Good luck, old cock…. Sorry to leave it in such a mess.”

Conservative Chancellor of the Exchequer Reginald Maudling to his Labour replacement James Callaghan, 1964.


:roll:

.



Except that, on that occasion, the note was true.

As the old saying goes, "Many a true word is spoken in Jest", in other words, it may have seemed to be a lyrical 'joke', but was in fact the literal truth. ;)
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By Nonsense
#15007413
B0ycey wrote:Funny you write this. I fully expect a similar letter from the Chief Secretary of the treasury after BoJo has pulled us out of the EU, crashed the economy and loses the forecoming general election.

You can blame Labour for spending all the money if you like. But if you knew anything about the 2008 crash you would know that it was the bankers that fucked up the economy not the politicians for once. All the politicians did was bail them out because we rely heavily on the finance sector for our GDP.



Well, that's the funny bit, the difference bewteen the Tories & Labour.

The Tories trumpet their ability to manage the financial affairs of the nation & they do what they do according to their ideology.

Unfortunately, a Party that is supposedly 'pro-business'(one of Gordon BROWN'S mantra's to the CBI & IOD)the reality is in stark contrast.

When they took power in 2010, they hit the ground running in pursuit of 'welfare reform' , euphemism for 'austerity', a thinly veiled velvet glove on an iron fist of fiscal rectitude & savage cuts in public spending.

Now, this is the funny bit, despite the false reputation, when they took office, the national debt was just £500 BILLION, but, by 2022 the national debt will exceed £2 TRILLION, four times what it was when Labour were in power last,so, it appears that their reputation precedes their abilities.

As for the deficit being cut, that was supposed to have been eliminated 5 years ago, but that policy, paid for by spending cuts AKA austerity, was paid for by those who have had their incomes reduced through deliberate government policy & the proceeds have gone to the rich & better off by way of tax cuts.

Thats why eliminating the deficit is taking much longer(because it deflates demand in the economy), but, it's also worth noting,the Pound has slumped in value with inflation exceeding growth for every year they have been in power, productivity has slumped(it would do with mass migration added to the workforce without a corresponding increase in productivity), hence why living standards & poverty has vastly increased.

No, their economic competence is zero.

The Tories use V.A.T increases to hit the poorer members of society, in addition to cuts in their incomes, higher rents, ctx increases & many other increases designed to shift money from those least able to afford such treatment to those whom the Tories favour.

Labour have had a more favourable record on V.A.T rises, that tax is a spending tax that increases the cost disproportionately onto the backs of those on the lowest incomes, whereas the rich or better off always have the money to pay the tax without it affecting their ability to spend.
By B0ycey
#15007420
Nonsense wrote:Well, that's the funny bit, the difference bewteen the Tories & Labour.

The Tories trumpet their ability to manage the financial affairs of the nation & they do what they do according to their ideology.

Unfortunately, a Party that is supposedly 'pro-business'(one of Gordon BROWN'S mantra's to the CBI & IOD)the reality is in stark contrast.

When they took power in 2010, they hit the ground running in pursuit of 'welfare reform' , euphemism for 'austerity', a thinly veiled velvet glove on an iron fist of fiscal rectitude & savage cuts in public spending.

Now, this is the funny bit, despite the false reputation, when they took office, the national debt was just £500 BILLION, but, by 2022 the national debt will exceed £2 TRILLION, four times what it was when Labour were in power last,so, it appears that their reputation precedes their abilities.

As for the deficit being cut, that was supposed to have been eliminated 5 years ago, but that policy, paid for by spending cuts AKA austerity, was paid for by those who have had their incomes reduced through deliberate government policy & the proceeds have gone to the rich & better off by way of tax cuts.

Thats why eliminating the deficit is taking much longer(because it deflates demand in the economy), but, it's also worth noting,the Pound has slumped in value with inflation exceeding growth for every year they have been in power, productivity has slumped(it would do with mass migration added to the workforce without a corresponding increase in productivity), hence why living standards & poverty has vastly increased.

No, their economic competence is zero.


Most of the UK debt is to itself. And it was caused simply to bail out the banks. So the incompetence of the global economic mess we have today is down to the bankers - and perhaps government for not regulating them - but mainly the bankers. All trademarks for the fall of Capitalism that will inevitably happen sooner or later, but that is another thread altogether. Although austerity, whether for or against it, is just an inconvenient truth. Every nation needs to balance the books and only exceed spending to invest or prevent economic collapse. Or more simply put, unless their is fiscal need or benefit to do so, don't spend more than you receive as it unsustainable. But being that you are a Brexiteer don't moan too much about austerity. Expect more from the government to pay for BoJos fuck up when he pulls us out if the EU without a deal. First thing to go, the triple lock.

As for the pound depreciation, that is down to Brexit. So again don't bitch about that either.
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By Nonsense
#15007426
B0ycey wrote:Most of the UK debt is to itself. And it was caused simply to bail out the banks. So the incompetence of the global economic mess we have today is down to the bankers - and perhaps government for not regulating them - but mainly the bankers. All trademarks for the fall of Capitalism that will inevitably happen sooner or later, but that is another thread altogether. Although austerity, whether for or against it, is just an inconvenient truth. Every nation needs to balance the books and only exceed spending to invest or prevent economic collapse. Or more simply put, unless their is fiscal need or benefit to do so, don't spend more than you receive as it unsustainable. But being that you are a Brexiteer don't moan too much about austerity. Expect more from the government to pay for BoJos fuck up when he pulls us out if the EU without a deal. First thing to go, the triple lock.

As for the pound depreciation, that is down to Brexit. So again don't bitch about that either.



I don't 'bitch' about anything BOycey, I am just stating facts & cause of them.

Anyhow, the state of our currency has been declining since 2008 & the effects of the financial crash in this country are down to foreign exposure of the risk that were taken on by the City of Landon lenders & undertakers of risk.

Of course, Gordon BROWN stoked the fires that resulted into that crash through his 'Light-Touch regulation' of the financial markets.

Labour were frightened of the financial markets reactions when they came to power, hence BROWN's 'pro-business' mantra, along with 'independence' for the Bank of England in setting interest rates, Labour simply capitulated to big business & abandoned any pretence of being a working class, Socialist Party.

They fawned themselves as ingrates to the Thatcherite selfishness & greed of the middle classes.

At the end of the day, the middle classes were always only fair weather 'friends'.

Indeed, they abandoned, as well as betrayed the working class that created the party, for that & all the other reasons such as uncontrolled migration, is why voters abandoned the Labour Party.
By B0ycey
#15007436
Nonsense wrote:I don't 'bitch' about anything BOycey, I am just stating facts & cause of them.


:roll:

...but you're not stating facts are you. I am. There is no denying that most of the UK debt was due to the financial crisis as that is when the QE program started and the money went on bailing out the banks. Blaming Brown (or Obama as most people do) for saving the banks by using QE is stupid. They either saved them or destroyed the financial market altogether. And being the UK rely heavily on the financial market for GDP, any chancellor would have done likewise to keep capitalism living for that little bit longer.

As for the depreciation of Sterling, the value you see today happened the same day we voted leave. A huge drop in one single day that has never been recovered. Compare that to when RBS was bailed out and you can see why what you wrote is nonsense. Even under QE, investors still had confidence in sterling to buy it up as they saw the UK as a haven for growth even under such economic hardship when compared to the rest of the world. Ten years on and that hope has gone as Brexit is seen as a dead weight for the UK in their biggest export market and today investors look else where as Brexit is economic suicide.

As I have told you many times before. You want Brexit. Have it. But it has an economic price that you will pay for in inflation and austerity.
By Sivad
#15007466
I really hope those wingnuts break the EU, that would be so freaking awesome.
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By Beren
#15007468
Image
Dominic Raab says he will stand for Tory leadership

The guy that had to be enlightened about the importance of the Dover-Calais crossing for British trade as Brexit secretary. I wonder if he'll be Brexit secretary again, or even prime minister. :lol:

The Guardian wrote:Watson says polls suggest Labour has been losing up to four times more voters to parties giving full backing to another referendum, than to Nigel Farage’s Brexit party.

Labour must back second Brexit vote or lose next election, Tom Watson warns

Corbyn's strategy works, Labour barely loses Leave voters. :excited:
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By Nonsense
#15007543
B0ycey wrote::roll:

...but you're not stating facts are you. I am. There is no denying that most of the UK debt was due to the financial crisis as that is when the QE program started and the money went on bailing out the banks. Blaming Brown (or Obama as most people do) for saving the banks by using QE is stupid. They either saved them or destroyed the financial market altogether. And being the UK rely heavily on the financial market for GDP, any chancellor would have done likewise to keep capitalism living for that little bit longer.

As for the depreciation of Sterling, the value you see today happened the same day we voted leave. A huge drop in one single day that has never been recovered. Compare that to when RBS was bailed out and you can see why what you wrote is nonsense. Even under QE, investors still had confidence in sterling to buy it up as they saw the UK as a haven for growth even under such economic hardship when compared to the rest of the world. Ten years on and that hope has gone as Brexit is seen as a dead weight for the UK in their biggest export market and today investors look else where as Brexit is economic suicide.

As I have told you many times before. You want Brexit. Have it. But it has an economic price that you will pay for in inflation and austerity.



Tell me BOycey, what is it about my previous post that is not about the facts in the period I have mentioned?

I need you to be specific as to what is not a fact, not your opinion on what you think, otherwise I may conclude that you are 'trolling' my post rather than debating them.

BOycey-" Blaming Brown (or Obama as most people do) for saving the banks by using QE is stupid".

No it's not BOycey, it just shows how blinkered & biased you are, that's what's so stupid.

Again, BROWN should have let the markets sink, he should never have bailed them out with taxpayers money.

It was BROWN's, 'Light Touch Regulation' leading to financial laxity in this country that set the environment for the crash here, as well as exposure in America, you can argue otherwise, it doesn't change the above dynamic.

In America, it was Freddie MAC & Fanny MAE lending policies on mortgage lending that set the scene for runaway borrowing.

In this country, BROWN knew Labour were becoming unpopular & he allowed lending to runaway with the attendent house price inflation.
Your comments are ridiculous in the extreme, exposing your ignorance about the realities of capitalism.

BROWN should have used that taxpayers money as capital to finance a state bank subjected to strict lending rules set by the state-NOT- used to bail out private banks.

If a system fails, the system pays the price & not the taxpayer.

What you are saying is, no, make the taxpayer pay, well, that has resulted in negative returns for savers & the banks are making money at zero cost because they are not paying for the cost of the money that they are now lending out.

If you truly understood the capitalist system as a whole you wouldn't have wanted it created in the first place, equally, any state system is just as corrupt for the simple reason that at the end of that food chain there are politicians & if that doesn't explain it for yourself then what hope is there for rs of like mind. :knife: :knife:
Last edited by Nonsense on 26 May 2019 09:41, edited 1 time in total.
By B0ycey
#15007550
Nonsense wrote:Again, BROWN should have let the markets sink, he should never have bailed them out with taxpayers money.


WTF!?!?!?

The service sector is 80% of UK GDP, with the financial sector being the biggest contributor of that. Not to mention it lends to business to invest and progress which couldn't happen without a sector designed for lending. Nonetheless you think the UK wouldn't have needed to execute austerity measures if it didnt bail out the banks? You're naive. The measures would have had to be more intense if it let it banks go bust because the UK has a huge finanical hub in London that would have caused a far bigger hole to its GDP than the responsibility of paying a debt it owes to itself ever could.

BROWN should have used that taxpayers money as capital to finance a state bank subjected to strict lending rules set by the state-NOT- used to bail out private banks.


What, like the BofE? :lol:

Lose banking and lose Londons financial hub. I don't care actually. Once the finanical sector dies, so does capitalism. Either way, I think you underestimate the need for finance in terms of progress and investment for private enterprise. Not that this matters. Lose the financial sector and then see what austerity actually is. Although perhaps Brexit might be an eye opener for you at the very least.
By snapdragon
#15007587
The financial crash was pretty much global.

Towards the end of Labour's last term, and under Brown, the economy was beginning to recover.

As soon as the coalition government got in, it plunged again. I swore I would never vote Lib-Dem ever for their perfidy in selling their soul to get their bums on the top seat.


Nonsense, you keep living up to your name.
By B0ycey
#15007754
What a fucking great win for Remain!!!

Lib Dems, Change and Greens beat Brexit and UKIP. Put in voter shares of Plaid and SNP and what we see is a decisive win for Remain last night. Fuck Farage and fuck the Right.

It is up to Remain to unite in the next general election and if Change UK MPs want to keep their jobs they need to become Lib Dem MPs. Tories are dead. Labour is dead whilst Corbyn refuses to step down. Only Watson can save them now. The next PM after the BoJo clown has fucked up everything will be will be a coalition Lib Dem leader if (a) they elect a charismatic leader like Kennedy and not a snivelling little shit like Fallon and (b) Corbyn remains in power whilst sitting on the fence hemorrhaging remain votes to other parties.

There is still hope for the UK after all.
User avatar
By Hong Wu
#15007764
According to Google, Brexit+Conservatives+UKIP got 44% of the vote. Is it true that every other party wants to remain in the EU?
By B0ycey
#15007766
Hong Wu wrote:According to Google, Brexit+Conservatives+UKIP got 44% of the vote. Is it true that every other party wants to remain in the EU?


Tories got 10% and I suspect that was a large percentage of Tory remainers that were left keeping the party afloat. All the Tory complete scum leavers jumped ship to The Brexit Party.
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