[SpecialOlympian]

There's a delightful story of a Greek philosopher being asked by one of his students to define a man. The philosopher said that man was a featherless biped. Next morning, the student brought to the philosopher a plucked chicken.

So, with that admonitory tale before us, can someone define a human being for me?

Pretty sure that one is attributed to Diogenes, who owns.

[Pants-of-dog]

Diogenes was the student who brought the chicken, if I recall correctly. A nice example of proto-science.

[SpecialOlympian]

My favorite story about Diogenes is two parts. And afaik Diogenes is just a comedic philosophy character and not a real person.

The Greek City-State in which he lived was being sieged by another City-State's army. So while people were manning the bows at the parapets he showed up and started rolling a barrel back and forth.

One of the militiamen in the city reserves asks Diogenes what the fuck he's doing. Diogenes responds with, "Well, everyone else looked so busy. I thought I should do something."

Then, after the city was sacked by Alexander the Great, Alexander hears about the city's smartest man and meets Diogenes, who is sleeping in the barrel that is his home.

Alexander says: "I have heard great things about Diogenes. I will give you anything you want."

Alexander is standing n in front of Diogenes, who is a homeless man who lives in a barrel. Alexander is casting a shadow on him. Diogenes says:

"Give me the sun."

Alexander, like a fucking moron, looks at the early afternoon sun behind him and steps aside. Moving his shadow away from Diogenes and his barrel.

Diogenes says, "Thank you" and falls asleep again.

[Pants-of-dog]

He was a barrel of laughs, that cynic.

[Unthinking Majority]

Men Cause 100% of Unwanted Pregnancies

Damn. That was the least intelligent argument i've read all week.

Canada legally allows it until the day of delivery of the baby.
That means Canada has no right to judge anyone or any country about morals.

You realize that doctors in Canada are members of a national medical association with regulations and therefore "no physician in Canada can terminate a pregnancy over 24 weeks without serious indications that the life of the mother is at risk or that the fetus has very serious malformations".

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/letters/todays-letters-late-trimester-abortions-are-not-happening-in-canada-without-a-reason

The slavery parts.

Yes exactly. The unborn baby is a slave to the mother, who created the baby by her own willful choices (except in cases of rape) and the baby had no consent to be conceived, and has no consent or say if they are killed prior to birth. Sounds like slavery to me!

Sorry I shouldn't call it a baby, I should call it a fetus. That way the baby can be dehumanized thus making it morally easier to deny it any human rights, just like racists did to slaves.

Please explain to us how a pregnant woman can be held as a slave to the unborn child when her own choices and actions, often stupid irresponsible choices and actions, led to her creating the baby with the father in the first place.

You certainly don't have the right to kill a person for that reason.
I've not made the argument you do.
Foetuses aren't people.

When does an unborn baby become a "person" then? Does the mother's vaginal canal have a magic wand inside that confers personhood to babies as they exit the vagina upon birth?

Noemon Edit: Multiple back to back posts

[Godstud]

A good measure of when a fetus is a person, is when it can survive outside of the mother, unassisted. most doctors won't perform abortions after 24 weeks(barring some danger to fetus or mother). I think this is a good limit, if you are going to place limits of ANY kind on abortion.

@Unthinking Majority You live very much up to the first part of your name, with your comparison of this to slavery, in your previous statements.

[Unthinking Majority]

A good measure of when a fetus is a person, is when it can survive outside of the mother, unassisted.

That's not an adequate measure. If an adult is in a coma on life-support do they cease being person?

[Godstud]

An interesting comparison, since that "person", was already a person, prior to being in a coma. A fetus, is not.

Also, very often those people DO lose person-hood, and have other people determining whether they live, or die.

Very bad example!

[Torus34]

I ran into Diogenes in LA a few years ago. There he was, dressed in his toga and carrying his lantern. "What are you doing these days?', I asked. 'Still looking for an honest man,' he replied.

Saw him again last year in Paris. 'Still looking?'. 'Yup, still looking.'

Ran into him again in NYC last week. 'How's it going?' 'Somebody stole my lantern!'.

[Ed.: Really, Torus? Really?]

[Unthinking Majority]

Also, very often those people DO lose person-hood, and have other people determining whether they live, or die.

They do not lose personhood, since even though they're unable to live without external support, they still have all the rights of a person. For instance, the family can't just unplug them from life-support if the unconscious person who has the potential to the live off life-support in the future becomes inconvenient to them.

[Suntzu]

Actually, they can.

[Unthinking Majority]

Actually, they can.

A person in a coma with a good chance of recovering to a healthy state cannot be killed by the family or a doctor simply because they are an inconvenience to the family.

[skinster]

Damn. That was the least intelligent argument i've read all week.

Well it would be for someone who considers themselves amongst the unthinking, but men do cause pregnancies and all the unwanted ones are their fault, since women can't get themselves pregnant.

If all the men ITT who are trying to control the bodies of women just took some responsibility and wore condoms, there wouldn't be any pregnancies.

Why are you lot so responsibility-shy? Man up! Stop blaming us women, we can orgasm without getting ourselves pregnant, nothing we do can get us pregnant, you guys are the ones who make us pregnant so stop fucking doing that while simultaneously crying about unwanted pregnancies that only you are responsible for.

[Torus34]

Skinster;

Perhaps a sidestep, but one you will appreciate. Alabama, a fetal heartbeat State, now has a bill to prevent gay marriage. I can understand this. Consider two men marrying. The Alabama legislature is powerless to force either of them to carry a pregnancy to conclusion. It must drive them crazy!

Sincere regards.

[Suntzu]

A person in a coma with a good chance of recovering to a healthy state cannot be killed by the family or a doctor simply because they are an inconvenience to the family.

I just went thought this shit with my mother. She gave me her advance directive that said no ventilator, no feeding tube, no recessitation. I didn't have to use it but I would have.

[Pants-of-dog]

They do not lose personhood, since even though they're unable to live without external support, they still have all the rights of a person. For instance, the family can't just unplug them from life-support if the unconscious person who has the potential to the live off life-support in the future becomes inconvenient to them.

What if the person on life support was an organ donor and there was someone who would die if the person on life support did not donate one of their kidneys?

Would it be all right then to take the person off life support?

[Suntzu]

Absolutely! You never saw the Monty Python skit?

[SpecialOlympian]

Abortion now. Abortion forever.

[Unthinking Majority]

Well it would be for someone who considers themselves amongst the unthinking, but men do cause pregnancies and all the unwanted ones are their fault, since women can't get themselves pregnant.

If all the men ITT who are trying to control the bodies of women just took some responsibility and wore condoms, there wouldn't be any pregnancies.

Why are you lot so responsibility-shy? Man up! Stop blaming us women, we can orgasm without getting ourselves pregnant, nothing we do can get us pregnant, you guys are the ones who make us pregnant so stop fucking doing that while simultaneously crying about unwanted pregnancies that only you are responsible for.

You're assuming i'm a man. Why?

You're saying a woman has no responsibility or choices before getting pregnant, but has all the responsibility and choices after getting pregnant? She either controls her own body or she doesn't. Except in cases of rape, a woman has control over whether she lets a penis enter her body, whether that penis has a condom on, whether she is on the pill or has an IUD. Any man who ejaculates inside a woman condomless without the woman's consent is a rapist and should be jailed forever.

It is obviously both a man and a woman's role in getting pregnant. It's impossible to only blame the man, and no reasonable person would only blame the man. The woman has to live with the consequences far more than the man for the rest of her life, so she has a special responsibility over whether she gets pregnant or not.

[Truth To Power]

A good measure of when a fetus is a person, is when it can survive outside of the mother, unassisted.

That's a high bar. Most of us need "assistance" of some sort. Maybe you mean with independent circulation, respiration and ingestion? Certainly a fetus that can't live separately from the woman's body is not a life separate from hers. That's almost tautological.