- 24 Jun 2019 23:35
#15014109
Instead of having a war with Iran Americans should rather consider if they want their country to be like Iran. Or Russia. Or Turkey.
Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...
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Noemon wrote:Second, racism in your multi-racial society has been anathema in the past couple of decades only because your elites realised that inciting/permitting racial hatred will lead to the fragmentation of the USA due to the sheer size of non-white American community. And lastly we can clearly see in here that racist people with extremely racist views against other people and countries are still bothered being called out "racists" and are openly calling for the silencing of those who are calling them out as such as if free-speech only applies to them saying racist stuff but not to those calling them out. These people are neither free-speech advocates as they pretend nor are they not-racists. They are simply racists who demand the privilege of a safe space for racism.QFT.
blackjack21 wrote:You can be jailed in many parts of Europe for speech issues. Try wearing a swastika in Germany. Try making derogatory comments about migrants in France. Try making a video of your dog doing a Nazi salute in the UK.
Nothing prevents them from organizing in the US. They are just not very popular. You might not consider the Ku Klux Klan to be an extremist group, but a lot of people in America would disagree with you. They were very popular for a long time and a big part of the Democratic party machine. Ku Klux Klan rally. In the US, Bernie Sanders runs as a Democratic Socialist in the Democratic party. Most of the Democratic party's more popular candidates are well to the left of center. Joe Biden is the last mainstream centrist, but between his neo roots, gaffes and the #metoo movement trying to flush him, the Democrats are headed to the left.
We have a first past the post, winner-takes-all political system. Nobody is going to stop you from proposing a Nazi government. You just won't get enough adherents to be politically relevant. So people will just see you as some sort of crank if you do that.
Universal healthcare discussions are not prohibited in the United States by a long shot. Americans just look at the roads and say to themselves, "do we want the people responsible for our roads to be responsible for our healthcare too"? The answer is usually "no." Americans want more affordable health care, not socialist health care. American health care is shielded from true capitalist competition. That's why it's so expensive.
Blackjack21 wrote:We had a fascist thread going here on PoFo at one point, and you were the most vocal opponent of it. How you claim to have free speech when you routinely use your moderators powers to suppress speech you don't like here on PoFo is absolutely bewildering.
A lot of people were utterly appalled by what they did in Libya and Syria--especially the Syria refugee crisis they spawned. So there are plenty of people who would have voted against Hillary for that reason. A lot of evangelicals for example would have voted against her for her position on late-term and partial birth abortion. You can chalk everything up to racism if you wish, but Trump even got more of the Hispanic vote than Romney did.
noemon wrote:Now we can put it to rest that "Killary's warmongering" was a real reason at least for those who are cheerleading the warmongering with Iran. Don't you agree?
I don't think the US should invade Iran. I think the US Navy should demand more space around our warships. If Iran did shoot down a US drone, the US should have a meaningful response.
Ok. So moving the US embassy to Jerusalem is an absolutely unprecedented event in modern history in your mind, and in mine it doesn't even warrant a shrug of my shoulders. I don't care.
I think pretending that Israel is not a US ally hasn't helped us in decades of trying to bring peace to that region, so I see little point in maintaining a facade that fools nobody.
They normalized relations with Egypt too. Saudi Arabia fears Iran. So does Israel. The enemy of my enemy is my friend--as the foreign policy adage goes.
What would racism have to do with Iran? They're aryan. R1 haplogroup. Maybe Arabs feel that way about Iranians, but it's not clear why you think Trump supporters would dislike Iran on some sort of racial basis. You seem race obsessed.
Anti-immigrant isn't all about race either. It's significantly about wages. That's why Trump's tariff threats should have been taken seriously, but weren't by his detractors. I had a many hundred page thread on Trump that got shut down by the moderators. free speech
You argue that we don't have free speech in the US, ignore the fact that you can be criminally sanctioned for speech in Europe, claim to be for some sort of "real free speech", and simultaneously use your moderator powers to take down speech you don't like.
That sort of thing happens on PoFo right here too by you, way the hell over in Greece. You try to prevent anyone from espousing racist opinions here. You can certainly do that, but it's quite hypocritical to say there is more free speech in Europe of that you are somehow a champion of free speech.
Well, if the mainstream media in the US and UK don't allow racist views, and Donald Trump got elected because of racism in your view, clearly your statement, "It is a heavily constrained free-speech, totally monitored and directed by the most powerful mind bending machine in history, tv, radio & internet." is manifestly false by your own arguments.
Brexit and Donald Trump alone would toss that on its head, and yet you embrace the US establishment's argument that anyone who opposes them does so because they are racist.
skinster wrote:America's going it alone, nobody wants to play with America (besides its client genocidal regimes Israel and Saudi Arabia who nobody loves)
noemon wrote:A clever person does not need to be derogatory and insulting to exercise the points of his/her speech.
noemon wrote:Making derogatory comments about migrants in France is a national pastime
noemon wrote:and the swastika in Germany was banned by the US-UK.
noemon wrote:Bernie Sanders and Cortez are totally mainstream in Europe, they are not the fringes as they are in the US. This shows a greater thread, Sanders and Cortez is where the limits of left go, while in Europe these views are in the centre rather than the fringe.
noemon wrote:At this point and by the standards of our resident right-wingers anyone who speaks kindly or neutrally for foreign people and does not want to kill them, deport them or imprison them is in your view a leftist.
noemon wrote:If you do not mind a foreign guy for a neighbour you are somehow a leftist part of the establishment, a globalist or a "liberal", if you support anti-immigration policies, you are somehow a good guy.
noemon wrote:such kind of behaviour will not be tolerated.
noemon wrote:Either way it is irrelevant to my argument that the political spectrum is more colourful in Europe and consequently the breadth and depth of free speech is larger than it is in the US.
noemon wrote:Do you agree with this?
noemon wrote:No, that is not what is "unprecedented", lots of countries move their embassies from one city to another all the time, what is totally unprecedented is the US president essentially ceding foreign territory to another country without anything in return, a total freebie and not once but twice in 2 years.
noemon wrote:I thought Americans were supposedly all for capitalism and for trade and exchanging things between people and nations and totally against hand-outs.
noemon wrote:This kind of behaviour is unprecedented indeed and creates a whole host of problems not just for the world order in general but for the US in particular as it totally discredits the country in the international stage.
noemon wrote:You want to give East Jerusalem to Israel and go die in Iran that's...sure whatever.
noemon wrote:Would it not concern you a great deal if it was Hillary doing this?
noemon wrote:This just goes to show that you are not very familiar with modern recent history and the international relations and treaties that define our world which are all the result of some sort of compromise even when dealing with defeated nations like Germany and Japan, let alone for thriving countries like Israel. But just so you know you can be an ally with someone, and can help them secure a better deal without having non-achievements under your belt. You can have some self-respect while doing it for example. Self-respect is good for the nation but most importantly good for international relations as it maintains the order that the US itself has created and shaped.
noemon wrote:The fact that you consider this a bad thing or against free-speech just goes to show the ridiculous level of your entitlement.
noemon wrote:That makes the thread these countries swing from in the pendulum between left and right a lot larger than the US's thread which means that they operate within a larger fence of acceptable speech.
noemon wrote:Both of these events confirm racism on its head indeed.
Hindsite wrote:This is making President Trump ask the question, "Why is the U.S.A. alone expected to defend other countries ships against Iranian attacks?"
Beren wrote:Instead of having a war with Iran Americans should rather consider if they want their country to be like Iran. Or Russia. Or Turkey.
blackjack21 wrote:That's because Europe for all practical purposes doesn't pay for its own defense.
Blackjack21 wrote:It's hard to believe that's the case when Tommy Robinson gets jailed for things that are perfectly legal in the US, because of our first amendment.Just because you do not want to understand laws, doesn't mean they're wrong.
blackjack21 wrote:So does that mean that people who aren't clever don't get freedom of speech?
The allies haven't ruled Germany for a little while now. Germany is responsible for its own laws.
That's because Europe for all practical purposes doesn't pay for its own defense.
That's not my view. I work with foreign people on a daily basis. I have an 8:00 a.m. call with a bunch of guys in Spain tomorrow morning. I was in Dubai just last month. Just because I am opposed to illegal immigration doesn't mean I hate foreigners.
Nobody cares about whether someone has immigrated from a foreign nation. They care about people being here illegally. If you are here illegally, you don't have a social security number, you don't file a 1040, and you can get free social services without paying taxes for them. Additionally, we have a serious problem of non-assimilation--people who refuse to learn the language, teach their kids the language, etc. Illegal immigration not only drives down wages for the working poor, it breaks social cohesion and leads to many other social problems.
Europe has more of an appetite for left wing politics than America does, but it's not because people are prevented from speaking about left wing ideas. AOC's views are standard fare on any college campus and are the views of most media talking heads. They just cater to a country that doesn't agree with them.
It's hard to believe that's the case
when Tommy Robinson gets jailed for things that are perfectly legal in the US, because of our first amendment.
It's even harder to believe when Count Dankula gets criminally charged for making a silly video of his dog doing a Nazi salute to taunt his girlfriend. Yet, this is common fare in Europe, just as it is common for Jean-Marie Le Pen to face fines for his comments, or Brigit Bardot for that matter.
No. Trump supporters generally aren't calling for war with Iran.
noemon wrote:Now we can put it to rest that "Killary's warmongering" was a real reason at least for those who are cheerleading the warmongering with Iran. Don't you agree?
It's not American territory to cede. Trump is basically just saying that he sides with Israel in this matter. .....Palestinian groups have rarely negotiated in good faith, so it's no surprise that an ardent realist like Trump isn't going to wax hope for some pie-in-the-sky peace settlement.
Really? Have we ever been "credited on the international stage" by people who disagree with us? Trump just rejects that rhetoric wholesale, and I agree with him on that point.
In the case of moving the embassy or recognizing Israeli suzerainty over the Golan Heights? Not particularly. Like Trump, I thought trying to overthrow Assad was foolish. Iraq wasn't nearly stable enough.
anasawad wrote:@Nonsense
U just stated again that the tanker's owners should sue Iranians in >American courts<.
And I will, again, respond by shove those courts up your ass. The same to everyone who suggests suing Iran in American courts, which is not strange here on PoFo.
The only courts Iran will respond to are Iranian courts. American courts can keep their bullshit all day everyday, they have no authority in\on Iran.
Heck, not even international courts have authority in Iran, and will never do.
Nonsense wrote:So, you also cannot understand the legal system either, or perhaps it's those prejudices inside your head that determine what keyboard keys you press?
If you believe that American courts are ineffectual in respect of events carried out by Iran, perhaps the immediate Iranian response to TRUMP's sanctions on their leaders might just give you pause to re-think, rather than retrench your attitude.
anasawad wrote:@Nonsense
Most of the strait is within Iranian waters and airspace.
anasawad wrote:@Nonsense
So, the inner workings of the US legal system that will have an effect so huge on Iran that it could result in sanctions?
Which sanctions though ?
I'm sure anyone who had read just a little bit about US-Iran relations, no need for a lot don't worry, would know the US already has all possible sanctions in place on long before any dumb fuck in some useless American court "judeges Iran".
The US has been placing every possible sanction on both Iran and its leaders for 40 years now. The most damage that could be done was already done.
Forgive my "inferior intellect", I thought we were talking about things like compensations and the likes; But now, after sharing your "superior intellect" I became aware of even more ways in which American courts can be useless when it comes to Iran.
Be real boy, there is nothing that any American court, even at the highest level, can do to harm Iran or the Iranian government.
In fact, since you're the one bringing it up, go ahead and provide just one example of a penalty or a sanction or whatever that they can do that isn't already done regardless of what a court stated.
Go on.
What? Sanctions ? done.
Travel bans ? Done.
Financial restrictions? done.
Freezing assets? done.
Classifying it as a terrorist ? guess what, done too.
Nothing the US government hasn't already done and all failed. Your courts can keep issuing statements and punishments and penalties against Iran and Iranian leadership and Iranian military and everything, it really does nothing. Its USELESS.
Hindsite wrote:This is making President Trump ask the question, "Why is the U.S.A. alone expected to defend other countries ships against Iranian attacks?"
Does anyone remember that a community in the Golan Heights was named Trump Heights?
anasawad wrote:@Nonsense
Don't try to diverge the topic to save face dude.
The sanctions have been on since 1979, and the conflict started for oil. Americans courts have no power or authority to do anything which is your initial claim. This is political.
The sanctions does some damage, but nowhere near what you wish it does.
If the sanctions were to cripple Iran and push towards imploding, you wont be seeing a couple of ships attacked, you'll be seeing the entire region catching on fire as Iran would have no option left but to attack.
2- If Iran started to spread mines in the strait, then no ship would be able to pass through, not civilian nor military. Anyone with a couple of brain cells can easily see that it's an attempt either by Saudi Arabia or Israel, or potentially the US itself to start a war.
Lindsey Graham, one of the key proponents of the war, even said that Israel will be the one to start the war.
So the fingerprints of a false flag attack to trigger a war is all over the place, to a point that even the country that its vessel was attacked, Japan, isn't pointing fingers at Iran.
And the fact that the US government moved an aircraft career closer to Iran, and recently tried to penetrate Iranian airspace is even more evidence to support this as it's obvious that the US and its allies are trying to start a war.
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