[Sivad]

I can't really tell whether this sentence is harsher than usual in the US. My impression is that it isn't rare for people to get extremely long sentences.

A life sentence isn't unusually harsh for the US, a lot of people get sentenced to death for that type of crime. But usually the sentence is just life without parole, they don't give you life plus 419 years unless they're pandering to a public hysteria.

It actually is kind of harsh given his background and mental illness, normally those would be taken into consideration but the current political climate demanded that the court bury him under the jail.

[Godstud]

Yes, sentences in USA are long:

The teenager sentenced to 241 years in prison
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... -241-years

He didn't even kill anyone...

[Politics_Observer]

@Kaiserschmarrn

I'm not a fan of private prisons. I just have no qualms about putting prisoners to work.

I don't have any qualms with putting prisoners to work so long as no private company, business or non-profit or any individual or organization aside from the taxpayer is making money off of it. The prisoners do owe a debt to society and society is the taxpayer.

Poverty can't explain the large differences in violent crime rates among different US ethnicities/races.

Well, in addition to poverty, we can also explain the legacy of slavery, segregation, discrimination and disenfranchisement too while we are at as contributing factors to violent crime.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I don't have any qualms with putting prisoners to work so long as no private company, business or non-profit or any individual or organization aside from the taxpayer is making money off of it. The prisoners do owe a debt to society and society is the taxpayer.

We agree.

Well, in addition to poverty, we can also explain the legacy of slavery, segregation, discrimination and disenfranchisement too while we are at as contributing factors to violent crime.

Yeah, I know this vague legacy argument always comes after poverty, and I have no idea why people accept it especially with respect to violent crime. There's no obvious reason why we should expect policies, which happened decades or in case of slavery more than a century ago, to actually cause people to murder primarily members of their own ethnic group at such a high rate.

[Sivad]

Yeah, I know this vague legacy argument always comes after poverty, and I have no idea why people accept it

Because it makes intuitive sense and it's also well documented at every level from the family to the ethno-cultural group all the way up to entire societies. There's no question that trauma is passed on from one generation to the next. And if a group is subjected to severe and prolonged trauma it could take quite a few generations to work itself out, I have no idea how anyone could honestly doubt that.

[Sivad]

Yes, sentences in USA are long:

The teenager sentenced to 241 years in prison
https://thehill.com/regulation/court-ba ... -241-years

He didn't even kill anyone...

Yeah and that's a conservative judge pandering to an outbreak of conservative hysteria over crime. hysteria is a bipartisan condition, it overtakes wingnut and libtard alike.

[Politics_Observer]

@Sivad @Kaiserschmarrn

Because it makes intuitive sense and it's also well documented at every level from the family to the ethno-cultural group all the way up to entire societies. There's no question that trauma is passed on from one generation to the next. And if a group is subjected to severe and prolonged trauma it could take quite a few generations to work itself out, I have no idea how anyone could honestly doubt that.

It's not only just that, but the legacy of slavery means a legacy of disenfranchisement. When you are disenfranchised, you are most likely to be impoverished and when you are impoverished you are more likely to live in neighborhoods that have crime and given that slavery in the US was race based that means a legacy of disenfranchisement targeted specifically at African Americans.

Here in the US, during the American Civil War, African Americans were one day slaves, then the next day free with nothing. They were surrounded by hostile defeated southern whites who some of the wealthy plantation owners probably had money hidden away that was made from race based slavery despite the massive destruction of the war that was inflicted upon some parts of the south at that time.

Not to mention, when African Americans ran for office in the south and got elected they were ran out of office from the ensuing terror campaigns of the KKK plus their were was voter intimidation at the polls of African American voters. African Americans during that time were never compensated or paid reparations for the damages of slavery and thus they remained disenfranchised ever since. They were never properly represented in government at that time given the KKK terror campaigns that ran elected black officials out of office. None of this was their fault.

Guess how the south rebuilt itself in the aftermath of it's defeat in the American Civil War? After running elected black officials out of office during Reconstruction (who were fairly elected I might add), the whites that took over eventually decided to introduce criminal legislation that unfairly targeted blacks and thus prison labor and the chain gang was born. So, despite on paper, slavery was over, in reality, it really wasn't. The south rebuilt itself using chain gang prison labor of black people. Southern white politicians who were in power after running black elected officials out of office via a KKK terror campaign used a loop hole in the 13 amendment:

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

And that was the legal loophole that southern white politicians used to incarcerate blacks and use them as slave labor to rebuild the south in the aftermath of it's defeat in the American Civil War.

References-

History.com. "13th Amendment." HISTORY, 9 Nov. 2009, http://www.history.com/topics/black-his ... -amendment. Accessed 18 July 2019.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Because it makes intuitive sense and it's also well documented at every level from the family to the ethno-cultural group all the way up to entire societies. There's no question that trauma is passed on from one generation to the next. And if a group is subjected to severe and prolonged trauma it could take quite a few generations to work itself out, I have no idea how anyone could honestly doubt that.

It makes no intuitive sense and there's no evidence that "trauma" is passed on and somewhere down the line causes high violent crime rates within an ethnic group. Jews should have sky high violent crime by your logic, yet neither in Europe nor the US is that the case despite centuries of various forms of discrimination, expulsions, progroms and ultimately an attempt to wipe them out.

It's not only just that, but the legacy of slavery means a legacy of disenfranchisement. When you are disenfranchised, you are most likely to be impoverished and when you are impoverished you are more likely to live in neighborhoods that have crime and given that slavery in the US was race based that means a legacy of disenfranchisement targeted specifically at African Americans.

Now you are mixing poverty in again. The poverty rates of Hispanics and blacks are similar, however, their violent crime rates are quite different. I also believe (but would have to confirm) that Asians have lower violent crime rates than whites, but both groups have similar poverty levels.

[Politics_Observer]

@Kaiserschmarrn

Now you are mixing poverty in again. The poverty rates of Hispanics and blacks are similar, however, their violent crime rates are quite different. I also believe (but would have to confirm) that Asians have lower violent crime rates than whites, but both groups have similar poverty levels.

That's because racism leads to discrimination, discrimination leads to denied opportunity, denied opportunity leads to poverty and then poverty leads to more crime. Racism has a ripple effect like that. And then their is this concept of using Asians to discipline African Americans. It solidifies a prevailing stereotype of Asian-Americans as industrious and law-abiding that would stand in direct contrast to African-Americans, who are still struggling against bigotry, poverty and a history rooted in slavery. This stereotype puts African-Americans and Asian-Americans at odds. Sure Asian-Americans have faced discrimination but Asians only started to do well once discrimination against them lessened. Comparing Asian-Americans and African-Americans is what whites have used to create a racial wedge in using this stereotype of Asian Americans. Asian-Americans have faced discrimination in our history but never the systematic dehumanization that black people have faced during slavery and continue to face today.

References-

NPR. "'Model Minority' Myth Again Used As A Racial Wedge Between Asians And Blacks." NPR.org, 19 Apr. 2017, http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/ ... 3616601628. Accessed 20 July 2019.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

That's because racism leads to discrimination, discrimination leads to denied opportunity, denied opportunity leads to poverty and then poverty leads to more crime. Racism has a ripple effect like that. And then their is this concept of using Asians to discipline African Americans. It solidifies a prevailing stereotype of Asian-Americans as industrious and law-abiding that would stand in direct contrast to African-Americans, who were still struggling against bigotry, poverty and a history rooted in slavery. This stereotype puts African-Americans and Asian-Americans at odds. Sure Asian-Americans have faced discrimination but Asians only started to do well once discrimination against them lessened. Comparing Asian-Americans and African-Americans is what whites have used to create a racial wedge in using this stereotype of Asian Americans. Asian-Americans have faced discrimination in our history but never the systematic dehumanization that black people have faced during slavery and continue to face today.

I have not compared Asians to African Americans, so this doesn't address anything I said.

[Politics_Observer]

@Kaiserschmarrn

I have not compared Asians to African Americans, so this doesn't address anything I said.

Well from what I have seen here in America, Asians seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. So I don't see similar poverty levels of Asians and African Americans.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Well from what I have seen here in America, Asians seem to be doing pretty well for themselves. So I don't see similar poverty levels of Asians and African Americans.

You are right that they aren't similar, and what I'm saying is that I haven't compared the poverty level of the two groups. I've juxtaposed Asians with whites and Hispanics with blacks, since poverty levels are similar for both pairs.

[Politics_Observer]

@Kaiserschmarrn

You are right that they aren't similar, and what I'm saying is that I haven't compared the poverty level of the two groups. I've juxtaposed Asians with whites and Hispanics with blacks, since poverty levels are similar for both pairs.

Ok I see what you mean now. Some of the Hispanics (Puerto Ricans) I am friends with do seem to live in poverty and they live in my state and have relatives in Puerto Rico. But he can be a bit crazy. He's a little a out there and crazy ha ha ha! He is an awesome dude though! On the other hand I know a Colombian woman who owns her own business and is pretty successful here and she is doing pretty good for herself. I don't know the poverty rates of Hispanics and African Americans and how they compare.

I do know the criminal gangs down in Mexico and Central America are extraordinarily dangerous very violent and brutal. You don't want to mess with those folks. Generally, these criminal gangs have a stranglehold over impoverished communities which is why some of them flee those areas so they don't get forced into the dangerous drug trade or killed by the drug cartels or Hispanic trafficking in drugs. Hispanics like any ethnic group can be violent as hell. That's not limited to African Americans. I kinda think that's another stereotype that people have of African Americans too though. Like the angry black man or black folks being gang bangers. Every ethnic group has its gang bangers that are extraordinarily violent and dangerous.

BTW, if you have Netflix and you have access to the Netflix TV series Narcos, check that out! That was pretty good TV series on Netflix. Goes back to the 1980s when American DEA agents were trying to stop Pablo Escobar in Columbia. It was insane the kind of power this guy had and was able take on his government in a straight out war because he had so much money and he was very brutal with no conscience.

[SpecialOlympian]

Jews should have sky high violent crime by your logic

Actually, Jews are responsible for all violent crime because they control society.

That's what James Fields believes, and he has never been wrong.

Just a quick reminder: Every rightwing PoFoer has defended James Fields. Often by citing actual conspiracy theories put forth by The Daily Stormer, which The Daily Stormer invented for the purpose of muddying the discourse on the nazi murderer. Reactionary thought is a mental illness. People afflicted with reactionary beliefs believe they are part of a game where if they advance the worst ideas and dumbest agenda by shouting loud enough they win the game, but don't actually receive any material gain from winning.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Ok I see what you mean now. Some of the Hispanics (Puerto Ricans) I am friends with do seem to live in poverty and they live in my state and have relatives in Puerto Rico. But he can be a bit crazy. He's a little a out there and crazy ha ha ha! He is an awesome dude though! On the other hand I know a Colombian woman who owns her own business and is pretty successful here and she is doing pretty good for herself. I don't know the poverty rates of Hispanics and African Americans and how they compare.

I know quite a few people who are a bit crazy but great and am very partial to them.

I do know the criminal gangs down in Mexico and Central America are extraordinarily dangerous very violent and brutal. You don't want to mess with those folks. Generally, these criminal gangs have a stranglehold over impoverished communities which is why some of them flee those areas so they don't get forced into the dangerous drug trade or killed by the drug cartels or Hispanic trafficking in drugs. Hispanics like any ethnic group can be violent as hell. That's not limited to African Americans. I kinda think that's another stereotype that people have of African Americans too though. Like the angry black man or black folks being gang bangers. Every ethnic group has its gang bangers that are extraordinarily violent and dangerous.

Sure, but that doesn't address what I said either. Poverty just isn't a particularly good explanatory variable when it comes to large violent crime rate differences in the US.

BTW, if you have Netflix and you have access to the Netflix TV series Narcos, check that out! That was pretty good TV series on Netflix. Goes back to the 1980s when American DEA agents were trying to stop Pablo Escobar in Columbia. It was insane the kind of power this guy had and was able take on his government in a straight out war because he had so much money and he was very brutal with no conscience.

I watched the first season when it came out, but didn't like it enough to watch the second.

[SpecialOlympian]

Lol where the hell are you finding statistics that don't show a correlation between poverty and crime?

[Sivad]

It makes no intuitive sense and there's no evidence that "trauma" is passed on and somewhere down the line causes high violent crime rates within an ethnic group.

There are hundreds and hundreds of academic studies documenting it so there is definitely evidence. And if the effects of extreme racial oppression, exploitation, and abuse perpetuating through successive generations doesn't make intuitive sense to you then you're some kind of alien bot that can't compute basic human realities.

Jews should have sky high violent crime by your logic

That's not my logic, my logic isn't nearly as simplistic as that. I would never expect vastly different cultures from vastly different social and historical contexts to exhibit the same effects from vastly different forms of trauma, that would just be idiotic.

centuries of various forms of discrimination, expulsions, progroms and ultimately an attempt to wipe them out.

I think that definitely explains a lot about the violence and viciousness of the Zionists.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

There are hundreds and hundreds of academic studies documenting it so there is definitely evidence. And if the effects of extreme racial oppression, exploitation, and abuse perpetuating through successive generations doesn't make intuitive sense to you then you're some kind of alien bot that can't compute basic human realities.

That's not my logic, my logic isn't nearly as simplistic as that. I would never expect vastly different cultures from vastly different social and historical contexts to exhibit the same effects from vastly different forms of trauma, that would just be idiotic.

Let's see the evidence for "trauma" of past generations causing high violent crime rates in the descendants then, taking into account that this is not universally so. The counterexample is a good first step to point out that your claim actually isn't intuitive.

I think that definitely explains a lot about the violence and viciousness of the Zionists.

There's nothing special about Israel (if that's what you mean) in terms of violence or "viciousness".

[SpecialOlympian]

Let's see the evidence for "trauma" of past generations causing high violent crime rates in the descendants then, taking into account that this is not universally so. The counterexample is a good first step to point out that your claim actually isn't intuitive.

It's not the trauma. It's the systematic deprivation of wealth over generations. Look up "redlining."

The highest value asset most families have is their home. Redlining effectively wiped out massive amounts of wealth for black families, and that's just counting those that could afford it. For most families, the largest proceeds from a parent/grandparent's estate are from the sale of the deceased's home. Wiping out the value of black people's real estate starting in the 40's is just one example of white society purposely crippling black American's ability to accumulate wealth.

To put it in simple terms; If your grandfather had inherited enough money through his own parent/grandfather's passing, through the sale of the parent/grandparent's largest asset (their home), to buy a reliable used car back in his late teens/early twenties through inheritance, he would have had much better job prospects. This ripples throughout generations.

White Americans literally burned down Black Wall Street because they saw black people amassing wealth and becoming equal in what everyone pretends is a meritocratic system. Of course I don't expect you, a person who has "problems" with antifa, to understand any of this because this would be counter to whatever fantastical reality you have created for yourself in which crime is just a hobby or a cranial predilection for some races.

So yes, there are lots of factors in play. The systematic destruction of black wealth is one of them, and it is more complex than just transactional actions in the market. It is a systematic expression of the inferior mental complex of the degenerate white race. White people will never forgive blacks for what the white people did to them, and the reactionary mindset will continue to push this because reactionary ideology causes its adherents to choose the following things in the following order:

-Systematic oppression and/or genocide of people they have victimized
-Suicide
-Introspection and self-reflection

[Sivad]

It's not the trauma. It's the systematic deprivation of wealth over generations.

Being systematically impoverished is traumatic. Even if slavery never happened, all the shit that was done to black people just between 1865 and 1964 is sufficient to explain their current troubles. You put any group through that kind of abuse and it's gonna fuck them up, anyone trying to pretend otherwise is either extremely dishonest or impossibly dense.