[flame]

Little known to the vast majority of Americans, and only known in leftist spheres in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, is the present genocide in West Papua being carried out by the Indonesian state and military against it's indigenous Melanesian Protestant and Catholic West Papuan people. Melanasians are dark skiinned and bear a resemblance to Africans.

The West Papuans are Melanasians and the vast majority of them subscribe to traditional forms of animism, Protestant and Catholic Christianity. The majority of Indonesians differ in ethnicity, culture, language and religion from the West Papuans. The policy of Indonesia was created during Dutch colonization. Prior to Dutch colonial rule there were many different independent Sultanates, Kingdoms and chiefdoms in most of western Indonesia while Papua was independent under the rule of various Papuan chiefdoms. None of them called themselves "Indonesian".

Indonesian identity was formed in the late Dutch colonial period by the majority Muslim Javanese and Sundanese ethnicities of Java from where the Dutch governed their East Indies colony. After Indonesia gained independence from the Dutch in 1949, the Indonesians demanded West Papua as part of their newly found state. The West Papuans rejected the Indonesian claim and demanded independence in their own state. The Dutch held on to West Papua for the next decade with a plan for eventual independence for the region while Indonesia cultivated international support for an invasion and annexation of West Papua, especially from the United States playing on American fears of Communism spreading in the region.

Indonesia started a military invasion in 1961 landing paratroopers in West Papua while it was still under Dutch administration. The United States saw Indonesia as a potential major anti-Communist ally and arranged for the "New York Agreement" signed by the Dutch where West Papua would eventually be transferred to Indonesian occupation through the United Nations. Ghana led a group of African nations in the United Nations to oppose Indonesia's annexation but the United States and it's western allies shouted them down. The United Nations Temporary Executive Authority ruled West Papua for a transitional period from 1962–1963 before Indonesia fully took over in 1963. A coup in 1965 firmly placed Indonesia in the western camp of the Cold War as pro-western Dictator Suharto took power and launched a purge of hundreds of thousands of alleged "Communists", the vast majority of whom were illiterate farmers and laborers who never read a word of Das Kapital. The Indonesian government supported Sufi Islamist organization Nahdlatul Ulama, it's youth branch Ansor Youth Movement and Banser, it's government funded Islamist paramilitary which murdered hundreds of thousands of random civilians from many different ethnicities across western Indonesia on false accusation of affiliation with the Communist party of Indonesia. The CIA aided Suharto in the massacres.

Indonesia held a sham referendum in 1969 called the "Act of Free Choice", threatening West Papuan tribal elders that they would have their tongues cut out or killed if they did not vote for incorporation into Indonesia. The West Papuans started armed resistance against Indonesian rule inaugurating the "Free Papua Movement" and it's affiliated guerilla armies waging war against the brutal Indonesian military occupation. Indonesia took inspiration from western settler colonization programs including ones implemented by the Dutch to do their own in West Papua. Indonesian colonial settlers from Java, the majority of them Javanese Muslims were moved to West Papua to colonize the region and outnumber the natives. Now, Javenese Muslim settlers make up over 50% of West Papua's population and outnumber the indigenous West Papuan Christians and animists.

The Indonesian military has murdered an estimated over 500,000 West Papuan civilians, men, women and children, carrying out whole scale massacres of villages accompanied by torture and gang rape of girls and women. Indonesia's special forces are known for carrying out extra judicial killings of political activists.

Henry Kissinger and Godrey Rockefeller were both board members of the American mining company Freeport-McMoRan owning stakes in it. The Indonesian military and Freeport-McMoRan jointly operate the Grasberg mine in occupied West Papua, conducting environmental strip mining and devasting the West Papuan environment and people. Freeport-McMoRan funded the Indonesian military and it's genocide and rape against West Papuans in exchange for keeping security to the mine which has failed since West Papuans have conducted successful attacks against Grasberg mining facilities.

Among other nations, the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Israel have all trained and equipped the Indonesian military and it's special forces Kopassus. Indonesia keeps it's relations with Israel informal and under the radar without overt diplomatic relations. Indonesia falsely puts on a show of support for Palestine while it conducts discreet business with Israel and purchased warplanes and sent soldiers for training by the IDF. Indonesia saw parallels between it's colonial settlements in West Papua and Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories.

This has spurred pro-Palestinian activists like Jeremy Corbyn in the United Kingdom's Labour party to support the West Papuans. The Libyan state under Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi supported the West Papuans and East Timorese in response to Indonesia's clandestine military alliance with Israel and it's pro-western affiliation.

Indonesia invaded the nation of East Timor in 1975, just after it gained independence from Portuguese colonial rule. Timorese are a Catholic people, formerly animist, ethnically different from the Javanese majority of Indonesia. The Indonesian military enacted a similar genocide and reign of brutality in East Timor with mass rapes and slaughters of entire villages being common. Hundreds of thousands of East Timorese were killed. Catholic nuns were raped, priests were murdered and East Timorese children forced to convert to Islam. Catholic Timorese girls were raped in the transit camps the Indonesian military forced East Timorese civilians to pass though. Rape was institutionally promoted by the Indonesian military command as a weapon of war.

Henry Kissinger and Richard Holbrooke made open shows of support for Indonesia's occupation of East Timor giving the Indonesian military a full green light for it's atrocities. Holbrooke was a life long supporter of Israel. Only far leftists like Noam Chomsky condemned Indonesia's genocides in West Papua and East Timor. Libya similarly aided the East Timorese against Indonesia.

Indonesia was only forced to withdraw from East Timor in the aftermath of the 1997 Asian financial crisis gutting Indonesia's economy to the brim and causing widespread violence and chaos across western Indonesia that forced the downfall of Suharto in 1998. Pictures of atrocities from East Timor showing Indonesian special forces raping East Timorese women and torturing one with a cigarette on her genitals were smuggled out, embarrassing the western world and forcing all the western nations to concede and allow East Timorese independence. Just before the pictures of the rapes and news of widespread massacres broke, Clinton was saying things were fine in Indonesia.

Both the Republicans and Democrats have supported Indonesia's genocide including all American Presidential candidates whether Bush, Obama, Clinton or Trump.

In the United Kingdom the Tories and Labour supported Indonesia until Corbyn and his far left cohort took over the Labour party. Corbyn and his fellow Labour parliamentarians have since launched an advocacy campaign to embarrass the Indonesian government and awarded the Freedom of the City of Oxford to West Papuan independence leader Benny Wenda. Corbyn is a strong advocate for Palestine against Israel. The Indonesian government has waged cyber warfare with social media bots denouncing Corbyn and the Labour party and reached out to pro-Israel lobby groups in the United States to double support for Indonesia. The Indonesian ambassador in the United Kingdom denounced the award to Benny Wenda and the Indonesian ambassador in the Unites States has been making the rounds with pro-Israel Democrats seeking and receiving reassurance of United States support to Indonesia.

Leftist media in the United Kingdom including The Guardian denounced Indonesia's genocide in West Papua. Other United Kingdom NGO's like Survival International have documented Indonesian war crimes in West Papua against civilians.

British leftists are not performative and do not virtue signal in their policy towards foreign countries. They do not believe Muslims qua Muslims are victims, but that Muslim victims are victims. They support Palestine not because most Palestinians are Muslims, but because Palestinians are victimized. Those same British leftists support West Papuans against majority Muslim Indonesia (which is supported by pro-Israel lobby groups in America). Corbyn views Muslims as normal humans like other people. They can be oppressed by non-Muslims and they can oppress non-Muslims. Solidarity for all, not performative support.

In the United States, liberal and conservative media refuse to denounce Indonesia or publish photos of the atrocities. The Indonesian military itself takes "trophy photos" and videos of their soldiers torturing and murdering West Papuans with the knowledge that as long as the United States is on their side and that the American civilian population is blissfully unaware for what happened, they would face no consequences.

In the United States, so called "far left" Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and "The Squad" have refused to denounce Indonesia and Sanders constantly repeats his refrain that he "100% supports Israel". Western liberals put up shows of denouncing Islamophobia and do nothing to stop genocides. Both white supremacist politicians and liberal politicians in America are united in their support for Indonesia.

The scene in Australia is that the two main parties, Liberal and Labour support Indonesia while only far-leftists Greens support the West Papuan cause.

Corbyn and British leftist media are doing their bit in the United Kingdom to stop his country from support the genocide but American liberals are uninformed and kept in the dark by their media. While Corbyn has shared the stage with Islamists at certain events he doesn't actually listen to them or bow to their agenda.

There are links to articles, photos and videos of the conflict here. I don't want to get accused of spamming by posting links and pictures all over so it's in these two documents.

https://justpaste.it/261pg

https://justpaste.it/446c4

[flame]

A second issue is the unrestricted extrajudicial murder of indigenous Lumad people of Mindanao by the AFP (Armed Forces of the Philippines). The indigenous peoples of the southern island of Mindanao in the Philippines fall under two umbrella categories. The western native ethnicities of Mindanao converted to Islam and are called Moros. The eastern native ethnicities of Mindanao stayed animist and are called Lumads. Lumads did not start converting to Christianity until recent western missionaries. Both of them, unlike the Filipinos in the northern islands of Luzon and the Visayas archipelago were unaffected by Spanish culture and were only brought into the Philippines by American colonization after America defeated Spain in the Spanish-American war. The Filipinos in the northern islands were affected by Spanish culture and religion during their centuries long rule.

After subduing Mindanao, America started the colonization of Lumad lands in eastern Mindanao with Japanese and Filipino settlers in 1918. The colonization which continued under the independent Philippines mainly affected the Lumads and resulted in the Filipino colonists now being the majority of over 50% in Lumad lands in eastern Mindanao. The Moros by contrast were much less affected by colonization and are still a majority of over 90% in most of their lands in southwestern Mindanao. They were affected to some extent but much less than the Lumads.

The AFP (Armed Forces of the Philippines) have since murdered Lumad indigenous people with impunity and drove them off their lands in the name of fighting against the Marxist New People's Army (NPA), which is mostly comprised of Filipino Marxists, not Lumads. Most Lumads are not NPA members but they are being murdered by Philippine military soldiers on false accusations of being NPA. They are simply indigenous people who were victimized by American sponsored colonization. NPA have committed murders against Lumads but the Philippine military is the biggest killers of Lumads and does it unrestricted for decades and still does it today.

The Moros in southwestern Mindanao have engaged in insurgencies and some groups have took to violent radical Islamism which is to be condemned. The Lumads never took up arms against the Philippine state but are being killed with impunity by it. The murder of Lumads took place in the American colonial period, the Marcos dictatorshpi, the post-Marcos democratically elected Presidents and still goes on.

Durterte has nothing to do with this issue because the Lumads were murdered by the Philippine military under pro-American Presidents before him like Aquino. Duterte's war on drugs is a separate issue dealt with by the police and by the military to some extent. American human rights organizations and western liberals have never condemned the Philippine military over the Lumad killings during the reigns of pro-American Presidents like Aquino but when Duterte, who was vocally critical of America, got elected and started his drug war (which is evil) they started faking concern over the drug war victims in order to blasti Duterte but never mentioned the Lumad murders which the Philippine military still carries out. The American trained Philippnine military's officers operate independently of Duterte and do not take their instructions from him in the matters of the Lumads. They obey the American military. American politicians de facto support the massacres and killings of Lumads because the AFP (Philippine military) is their geopolitical pawn much like the TNI (Indonesian military).

Similar to the American company Freeport-McMoran running Grasberg mine West Papua with the Indonesian government and military, the Philippines lets American companies plunder Mindanao for natural resources and minerals.

During the Marcos dictatorship, pro-Marcos Filipino militias who practiced cannibalism and strange cult religions murdered the Italian Catholic Priest Tullio Favali who was evangelizing the Lumads and one of them ate his brain. The Catholic Church and it's priests in the Philippines resisted the Marcos dictatorship.

All Democrats and Republicans support the Philippine military. I have only seen a few leftists in the United Kingdom support the Lumads along with West Papuans. Most American Democrats are fully in line with the western military industrial complex unlike British leftists.

[flame]

Little known to the vast majority of Americans, and only known in leftist spheres in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, is the present genocide in West Papua being carried out by the Indonesian state and military against it's indigenous Melanesian Protestant and Catholic West Papuan people. Melanasians are dark skiinned and bear a resemblance to Africans.

The West Papuans are Melanasians and the vast majority of them subscribe to traditional forms of animism, Protestant and Catholic Christianity. The majority of Indonesians differ in ethnicity, culture, language and religion from the West Papuans. The policy of Indonesia was created during Dutch colonization. Prior to Dutch colonial rule there were many different independent Sultanates, Kingdoms and chiefdoms in most of western Indonesia while Papua was independent under the rule of various Papuan chiefdoms. None of them called themselves "Indonesian".

Indonesian identity was formed in the late Dutch colonial period by the majority Muslim Javanese and Sundanese ethnicities of Java from where the Dutch governed their East Indies colony. After Indonesia gained independence from the Dutch in 1949, the Indonesians demanded West Papua as part of their newly found state. The West Papuans rejected the Indonesian claim and demanded independence in their own state. The Dutch held on to West Papua for the next decade with a plan for eventual independence for the region while Indonesia cultivated international support for an invasion and annexation of West Papua, especially from the United States playing on American fears of Communism spreading in the region.

Indonesia started a military invasion in 1961 landing paratroopers in West Papua while it was still under Dutch administration. The United States saw Indonesia as a potential major anti-Communist ally and arranged for the "New York Agreement" signed by the Dutch where West Papua would eventually be transferred to Indonesian occupation through the United Nations. Ghana led a group of African nations in the United Nations to oppose Indonesia's annexation but the United States and it's western allies shouted them down. The United Nations Temporary Executive Authority ruled West Papua for a transitional period from 1962–1963 before Indonesia fully took over in 1963. A coup in 1965 firmly placed Indonesia in the western camp of the Cold War as pro-western Dictator Suharto took power and launched a purge of hundreds of thousands of alleged "Communists", the vast majority of whom were illiterate farmers and laborers who never read a word of Das Kapital. The Indonesian government supported Sufi Islamist organization Nahdlatul Ulama, it's youth branch Ansor Youth Movement and Banser, it's government funded Islamist paramilitary which murdered hundreds of thousands of random civilians from many different ethnicities across western Indonesia on false accusation of affiliation with the Communist party of Indonesia. The CIA aided Suharto in the massacres.

Indonesia held a sham referendum in 1969 called the "Act of Free Choice", threatening West Papuan tribal elders that they would have their tongues cut out or killed if they did not vote for incorporation into Indonesia. The West Papuans started armed resistance against Indonesian rule inaugurating the "Free Papua Movement" and it's affiliated guerilla armies waging war against the brutal Indonesian military occupation. Indonesia took inspiration from western settler colonization programs including ones implemented by the Dutch to do their own in West Papua. Indonesian colonial settlers from Java, the majority of them Javanese Muslims were moved to West Papua to colonize the region and outnumber the natives. Now, Javenese Muslim settlers make up over 50% of West Papua's population and outnumber the indigenous West Papuan Christians and animists.

The Indonesian military has murdered an estimated over 500,000 West Papuan civilians, men, women and children, carrying out whole scale massacres of villages accompanied by torture and gang rape of girls and women. Indonesia's special forces are known for carrying out extra judicial killings of political activists.

Henry Kissinger and Godrey Rockefeller were both board members of the American mining company Freeport-McMoRan owning stakes in it. The Indonesian military and Freeport-McMoRan jointly operate the Grasberg mine in occupied West Papua, conducting environmental strip mining and devasting the West Papuan environment and people. Freeport-McMoRan funded the Indonesian military and it's genocide and rape against West Papuans in exchange for keeping security to the mine which has failed since West Papuans have conducted successful attacks against Grasberg mining facilities.

Among other nations, the United States, United Kingdom, Australia and Israel have all trained and equipped the Indonesian military and it's special forces Kopassus. Indonesia keeps it's relations with Israel informal and under the radar without overt diplomatic relations. Indonesia falsely puts on a show of support for Palestine while it conducts discreet business with Israel and purchased warplanes and sent soldiers for training by the IDF. Indonesia saw parallels between it's colonial settlements in West Papua and Israeli settlements in Palestinian territories.

This has spurred pro-Palestinian activists like Jeremy Corbyn in the United Kingdom's Labour party to support the West Papuans. The Libyan state under Colonel Muammar al-Gaddafi supported the West Papuans and East Timorese in response to Indonesia's clandestine military alliance with Israel and it's pro-western affiliation.

Indonesia invaded the nation of East Timor in 1975, just after it gained independence from Portuguese colonial rule. Timorese are a Catholic people, formerly animist, ethnically different from the Javanese majority of Indonesia. The Indonesian military enacted a similar genocide and reign of brutality in East Timor with mass rapes and slaughters of entire villages being common. Hundreds of thousands of East Timorese were killed. Catholic nuns were raped, priests were murdered and East Timorese children forced to convert to Islam. Catholic Timorese girls were raped in the transit camps the Indonesian military forced East Timorese civilians to pass though. Rape was institutionally promoted by the Indonesian military command as a weapon of war.

Henry Kissinger and Richard Holbrooke made open shows of support for Indonesia's occupation of East Timor giving the Indonesian military a full green light for it's atrocities. Holbrooke was a life long supporter of Israel. Only far leftists like Noam Chomsky condemned Indonesia's genocides in West Papua and East Timor. Libya similarly aided the East Timorese against Indonesia.

Indonesia was only forced to withdraw from East Timor in the aftermath of the 1997 Asian financial crisis gutting Indonesia's economy to the brim and causing widespread violence and chaos across western Indonesia that forced the downfall of Suharto in 1998. Pictures of atrocities from East Timor showing Indonesian special forces raping East Timorese women and torturing one with a cigarette on her genitals were smuggled out, embarrassing the western world and forcing all the western nations to concede and allow East Timorese independence. Just before the pictures of the rapes and news of widespread massacres broke, Clinton was saying things were fine in Indonesia.

Both the Republicans and Democrats have supported Indonesia's genocide including all American Presidential candidates whether Bush, Obama, Clinton or Trump.

In the United Kingdom the Tories and Labour supported Indonesia until Corbyn and his far left cohort took over the Labour party. Corbyn and his fellow Labour parliamentarians have since launched an advocacy campaign to embarrass the Indonesian government and awarded the Freedom of the City of Oxford to West Papuan independence leader Benny Wenda. Corbyn is a strong advocate for Palestine against Israel. The Indonesian government has waged cyber warfare with social media bots denouncing Corbyn and the Labour party and reached out to pro-Israel lobby groups in the United States to double support for Indonesia. The Indonesian ambassador in the United Kingdom denounced the award to Benny Wenda and the Indonesian ambassador in the Unites States has been making the rounds with pro-Israel Democrats seeking and receiving reassurance of United States support to Indonesia.

Leftist media in the United Kingdom including The Guardian denounced Indonesia's genocide in West Papua. Other United Kingdom NGO's like Survival International have documented Indonesian war crimes in West Papua against civilians.

British leftists are not performative and do not virtue signal in their policy towards foreign countries. They do not believe Muslims qua Muslims are victims, but that Muslim victims are victims. They support Palestine not because most Palestinians are Muslims, but because Palestinians are victimized. Those same British leftists support West Papuans against majority Muslim Indonesia (which is supported by pro-Israel lobby groups in America). Corbyn views Muslims as normal humans like other people. They can be oppressed by non-Muslims and they can oppress non-Muslims. Solidarity for all, not performative support.

In the United States, liberal and conservative media refuse to denounce Indonesia or publish photos of the atrocities. The Indonesian military itself takes "trophy photos" and videos of their soldiers torturing and murdering West Papuans with the knowledge that as long as the United States is on their side and that the American civilian population is blissfully unaware for what happened, they would face no consequences.

In the United States, so called "far left" Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and "The Squad" have refused to denounce Indonesia and Sanders constantly repeats his refrain that he "100% supports Israel". Western liberals put up shows of denouncing Islamophobia and do nothing to stop genocides. Both white supremacist politicians and liberal politicians in America are united in their support for Indonesia.

The scene in Australia is that the two main parties, Liberal and Labour support Indonesia while only far-leftists Greens support the West Papuan cause.

Corbyn and British leftist media are doing their bit in the United Kingdom to stop his country from support the genocide but American liberals are uninformed and kept in the dark by their media. While Corbyn has shared the stage with Islamists at certain events he doesn't actually listen to them or bow to their agenda.

There are links to articles, photos and videos of the conflict here. I don't want to get accused of spamming by posting links and pictures all over so it's in these two documents.

https://justpaste.it/261pg

https://justpaste.it/446c4

Indonesia is touted as an example of a democratic, peaceful, moderate Muslim country by neoliberals like Obama. Besides genocide in West Papua and previously in East Timor, Indonesia has a high rate of FGM (female genital mutilation) because of the specific madhhab they practice. Nahdlatul Ulama supports FGM and lobbied against efforts to get it banned.

The Front Pembela Islam (FPI) which is "Islamic Defender's Front" in English is legal in Indonesia and spreads hatred against non-Muslims and other sect Muslims who are not Sunni. FPI is a Sunni, Sufi Islamist organization. They oppose Wahhabism. Nahdlatul Ulama has Sufis as well. There is a humongous misconception in the western world that all Sufis are moderate and Wahhabis are the only terrorists. No, Sufis can be intolerant, violent and hateful as Wahhabis. The Ottoman empire which committed genocides was a Sufi empire. The Islamist AKP in Turkey are Sufis.

[flame]

Another relatively unknown series of atrocities is happening in the Chittagong Hill Tracts of Bangladesh.

The Chittagong Hill Tracts (CHT) is home to a collection of indigenous ethnicities called the Jumma who are mostly Buddhist. They ruled themselvs in kingdoms until British colonization and they became semi-princely states in British India. They bordered Bengal but were not part of Bengal.

As everyone mostly knows, many Muslims of British India voted for partition in 1947 so that Muslim majority regions would become Pakistan and non-Muslim majority regions would become India or independent. The Chittagong Hill Tracts was 97% Buddhist Jummas in 1947. The British promised independence earlier to the Jummas before World War II in exchange for them supporting the Allies. This promise was violated as the man responsible for partition, Cyril Radcliffe decided to place the Chittagong Hill Tracts inside of East Pakistan, which was East Bengal, on the excuse that the Chittagong Hill Tracts should go with the Bengali Muslim majority Chittagong city (they ad nothing to do with each other. The British just named the highlands the "Chittagong Hill Tracts" because Chittagong city was nearby)

Buddhist Jummas were reduced to 90% of the population of the CHT under Pakistani rule and the Pakistani built Kaptai dam submerged one of the palaces of the Jumma Kings along with entire villages of Jummas forcing 100,000 Jummas to flee as refugees to India.



The biggest disaster and genocide struck after Bangladesh gained independence from Pakistan in 1971. First the "secular" "liberal" Bangladesh Awami League party leader Sheikh Mujibur Rahman who ruled Bangladesh after it gained independence refused to recognize Jumma identity and threatened to inundate them with Bangladeshi settlers so they would become a minority in the CHT, imposing Bangladeshi identity on the nation. Then when his opponent, the Islamist Ziaur Rahman gained power in 1977 along with his right wing Bangladesh Nationalist Party he started the genocide against the Jummas and colonized their land with torrents of Bangladeshi Muslims, mostly of criminal backgrounds. The Bangladeshi army and Bangladeshi settlers began a campaign of massacres, rape, ethnic cleansing and genocide against the Jummas. They murdered entire villages of men, women and children, raped girls and destroyed Buddhist temples. The Jumma party Parbatya Chattagram Jana Samhati Samiti (United People's Party of the Chittagong Hill Tracts) formed an armed wing, the Shanti Bahini (Peace Force) to fight back against Bangladesh.

The "secular" "liberal" Bangladesh Awami League later returned to power in 1996 and started negotiating after two decades of genocide. They signed the Chittagong Pece Tracts accord in 1997 with the Parbatya Chattagram Jana Samhati Samiti and the Shanti Bahini (agreed to disarm. Then the Bangladeshi military and settlers went on murdering and raping Jumma women and children under Bangladesh Awami League rule like they did under the previous right wing Bangladesh Nationalist Party and allied Islamists. "Secular" Bangladesh Awami League politicians encouraged riots and lynchings against Hindus and Buddhists and even participated in destruction of their temples just like their opponents Bangladesh Nationalist Party and the Islamist Bangladesh Jamaat-e-Islami. The Bangladeshi army and settlers are still raping and murdering Jumma women and girls to this day. Nothing changed whether the parties are Islamist or not Islamist. Bangladeshi society tolerates bigotry and lynching against religious and ethnic minorities as long as they are non-Muslims. This is similar to the situation in Egypt where both the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood and the allegedly "secular" officials of Sisi persecute Coptic Christians. Both Islamist and non-Islamist factions tolerate hatred and violence against non-Muslims. The non-Islamist parties just put on fake shows of support and lip service to religious diversity with a few holiday celebrations and photo ops before stirring hatred against those minorities the next day. In Bangladesh, Hindus are called "malaun" which means "damned" (to hell) by people in all sectors of society in casual conversation.

The only way to stop the constant murders and rapes by the Bangladeshi army and settlers is for Bangladesh to be forced to relinquish control of the Chittagong Hill Tracts.

[foxdemon]

Indonesia was only forced to withdraw from East Timor in the aftermath of the 1997 Asian financial crisis gutting Indonesia's economy to the brim and causing widespread violence and chaos across western Indonesia that forced the downfall of Suharto in 1998.

Was it the financial crisis that forced Indonesia out of Timor Leste? Or was it a military force? There I was thinking an international coalition, with US backing was responsible.

To evict Indonesian forces from Irian Jaya would take a major military campaign. Then there are all those settlers. What would happen to them? Neither Australia nor PNG want to have any part of that.

If Corbyn wants to invade, assuming he could find a local base for British troops to operate from, then that would be his choice if he were UK PM. I don’t think there would be much local support. China might help if Corbyn agreed China would get mining rights.

The relationship between Indonesia and Israel is overplayed in your post. Israel is not popular in Indonesia for obvious reasons. I find it odd that you make so much effort to demonstrate a relationship.

[flame]

Was it the financial crisis that forced Indonesia out of Timor Leste? Or was it a military force? There I was thinking an international coalition, with US backing was responsible.

To evict Indonesian forces from Irian Jaya would take a major military campaign. Then there are all those settlers. What would happen to them? Neither Australia nor PNG want to have any part of that.

If Corbyn wants to invade, assuming he could find a local base for British troops to operate from, then that would be his choice if he were UK PM. I don’t think there would be much local support. China might help if Corbyn agreed China would get mining rights.

The relationship between Indonesia and Israel is overplayed in your post. Israel is not popular in Indonesia for obvious reasons. I find it odd that you make so much effort to demonstrate a relationship.

Was it the financial crisis that forced Indonesia out of Timor Leste? Or was it a military force? There I was thinking an international coalition, with US backing was responsible.

To evict Indonesian forces from Irian Jaya would take a major military campaign. Then there are all those settlers. What would happen to them? Neither Australia nor PNG want to have any part of that.

If Corbyn wants to invade, assuming he could find a local base for British troops to operate from, then that would be his choice if he were UK PM. I don’t think there would be much local support. China might help if Corbyn agreed China would get mining rights.

The relationship between Indonesia and Israel is overplayed in your post. Israel is not popular in Indonesia for obvious reasons. I find it odd that you make so much effort to demonstrate a relationship.[/quote]

Suharto's downfall brought about by the financial crisis almost balkanized Indonesia into pieces as different islands flared into violence. The west only cut East Timor off after Suharto fell as if it was an emergency surgery to save the rest of Indonesia (viewed as a western asset) from disintegrating. The Indonesian part of Borneo spiraled into ethnic violence as natives slaughtered settlers from other islands in Indonesia. Central Sulawesi broke out into violence between Christians and Muslims. Java itself saw violence with Islamist factions. Indonesia barely got back together as a country so the US, after supporting the genocide in East Timor for two decades had to separate what it saw as a cancer to stop it from metastasizing.

East Timor was the spotlight of international attention after Portugal lobbied intensely for East Timor against the US. It was also not part of the Dutch East Indies and was an independent state in 1975 for a brief time before Indonesia invaded it so that made Indonesia's occupation even more obviously blatantly illegal to the public.

Indonesia has warplanes and guns bought from Israel and it's special forces Kopassus were trained by them like they were by the US. Israeli tourists are permitted to visit Bali. The business relations between them is under the radar.

[flame]

I have no idea why my quoting of foxdemons's post got messed up above. So take note that his post ends at [/quote] and not at "demonstrate a relationship."

[flame]

The settlers in Borneo were forced to go back home to the other part of Indonesia. French settlers in Algeria left after the Algerian war.

[foxdemon]

Suharto's downfall brought about by the financial crisis almost balkanized Indonesia into pieces as different islands flared into violence. The west only cut East Timor off after Suharto fell as if it was an emergency surgery to save the rest of Indonesia (viewed as a western asset) from disintegrating. The Indonesian part of Borneo spiraled into ethnic violence as natives slaughtered settlers from other islands in Indonesia. Central Sulawesi broke out into violence between Christians and Muslims. Java itself saw violence with Islamist factions. Indonesia barely got back together as a country so the US, after supporting the genocide in East Timor for two decades had to separate what it saw as a cancer to stop it from metastasizing.

East Timor was the spotlight of international attention after Portugal lobbied intensely for East Timor against the US. It was also not part of the Dutch East Indies and was an independent state in 1975 for a brief time before Indonesia invaded it so that made Indonesia's occupation even more obviously blatantly illegal to the public.

Indonesia has warplanes and guns bought from Israel and it's special forces Kopassus were trained by them like they were by the US. Israeli tourists are permitted to visit Bali. The business relations between them is under the radar.

It was Blair and Clinton who drove the Timor Leste intervention. Though it was a coalition of local militaries that occupied Timor Leste, it was the presence of a US carrier group in the area and US diplomatic pressure that convinced the Indonesian army to withdraw rather than fight.

Anyway, a military intervention in Irian Jaya would result in a protracted war. It would likely spread as there is a lot of instability in the region. For example, the Islamic radicals trying to recreate the Sultanate of Jolo not far from Irian Jaya. Most of the islands there have mixed populations with simmering tensions.

To invade would be worse than not invading. Think of all the violence and displaced people that would result. So what can be done? Clearly a peaceful solution is the only possible way. Australia and PNG have to be neutral. But NZ and the rest of the Pacific Island nation’s apart from PNG, could engage the Indonesian government to get a better deal for the Papuans.

I don’t know if Corbyn is the best person to get involved. I doubt he understands much about the state of the region.

[flame]

@foxdemon,

It was Blair and Clinton who drove the Timor Leste intervention. Though it was a coalition of local militaries that occupied Timor Leste, it was the presence of a US carrier group in the area and US diplomatic pressure that convinced the Indonesian army to withdraw rather than fight.

Anyway, a military intervention in Irian Jaya would result in a protracted war. It would likely spread as there is a lot of instability in the region. For example, the Islamic radicals trying to recreate the Sultanate of Jolo not far from Irian Jaya. Most of the islands there have mixed populations with simmering tensions.

To invade would be worse than not invading. Think of all the violence and displaced people that would result. So what can be done? Clearly a peaceful solution is the only possible way. Australia and PNG have to be neutral. But NZ and the rest of the Pacific Island nation’s apart from PNG, could engage the Indonesian government to get a better deal for the Papuans.

I don’t know if Corbyn is the best person to get involved. I doubt he understands much about the state of the region.

"the Islamic radicals trying to recreate the Sultanate of Jolo" are far away from West Papua and in a different country. They are in southwestern Mindanao and the Sulu islands next to Mindanao, under Philippine rule. Which brings us to the Lumad killings also mentioned by me in this thread, which take place in the rest of Mindanao.

The Indonesian army was going to get wrecked if it didn't withdraw. While Suharto was falling, the natives of Borneo were taunting the Indonesian army there while they slaughtered the government sponsored settlers and forced the surviving settlers back to go back home to their original island. They even fought in skirmishes with the Indonesian army as a warning for them to back off.

There was the insurgency in Aceh, Sumatra going on at that time up to the Tsunami. The Acehnese were coordinating with the East Timorese and West Papuans against Indonesia. Acehnese were killing Indonesian soldiers left and right in guerrilla actions and the Indonesians couldn't eliminate any of their leadership.

There was the Christian-Muslim violence in Sulawesi.

If the Indonesian army did not withdraw from East Timor, then Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi would have plunged into uncontrollable chaos as they saw the Indonesian army be overstretched. America did not want it's asset to fall apart.

Borneans forced the settlers to go back home to their original island. There was no displacement into other countries. Indonesia doesn't want peace, it keeps murdering and raping and destroying the environment. I forgot to mention that bit. A boycott of palm oil and Indonesian products would stop the environmental genocide and oppression of minority natives across all of Indonesia not only West Papua.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... -indonesia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/west-papua

The Indonesians are not only massacring people, they are destroying the environment with the mining at Grasberg mine and cutting down the rainforest in Papua and other islands like Sumatra and Borneo to grow palm plantations for palm oil exports. The palm oil in potato chips and oreos is contributing to environmental destruction and persecution. They burned entire forests causing smog pollution to their neighbors in Singapore and Malaysia.

Animals like the orangutan (in Sumatra and Borneo) and Tree-kangaroo (in Papua) are being driven to extinction by palm oil plantations. There was even a case of an orangutan being kept as a sex slave by Indonesians.

https://www.change.org/p/greg-moriarty- ... /u/6590560

It's not only Papuans which are affected but natives on other islands in Indonesia by palm oil and persecution. The Orang Rimba were in Sumatra island were driven off their land by palm oil plantations and forced to convert from animism to Islam.

The Catholic Justice and Peace Commission of the Archdiocese of Brisbane conducted their investigation in Papua at great personal risk.

https://cjpcbrisbane.files.wordpress.co ... y-2016.pdf

Even Al-Jazeera is reporting on what happens in Papua while most American media is silent.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/ ... 01513.html

He said those in the photo, which was sent to Al Jazeera in June, were 15 years old.

"Imagine the military attacked the village, killed parents and elders," Sambom said, explaining that the photo had been taken in the district of Nduga where thousands have been displaced by the recent fighting.

"Some took [up] firearms to take revenge for their family's death. This is a political situation, and the world needs to acknowledge this."

Indigenous Papuan rebels have been fighting for independence for at least 50 years, but the evidence that teenagers are joining the fight has caused alarm among community leaders.

"This child's trauma can be a cycle of revenge," Father John Djonga, a prominent Catholic priest in the central highlands, told Al Jazeera. "It will be more terrible in the future," he said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 43929.html

[foxdemon]

@foxdemon,

"the Islamic radicals trying to recreate the Sultanate of Jolo" are far away from West Papua and in a different country. They are in southwestern Mindanao and the Sulu islands next to Mindanao, under Philippine rule. Which brings us to the Lumad killings also mentioned by me in this thread, which take place in the rest of Mindanao.

The Indonesian army was going to get wrecked if it didn't withdraw. While Suharto was falling, the natives of Borneo were taunting the Indonesian army there while they slaughtered the government sponsored settlers and forced the surviving settlers back to go back home to their original island. They even fought in skirmishes with the Indonesian army as a warning for them to back off.

There was the insurgency in Aceh, Sumatra going on at that time up to the Tsunami. The Acehnese were coordinating with the East Timorese and West Papuans against Indonesia. Acehnese were killing Indonesian soldiers left and right in guerrilla actions and the Indonesians couldn't eliminate any of their leadership.

There was the Christian-Muslim violence in Sulawesi.

If the Indonesian army did not withdraw from East Timor, then Sumatra, Borneo and Sulawesi would have plunged into uncontrollable chaos as they saw the Indonesian army be overstretched. America did not want it's asset to fall apart.

Borneans forced the settlers to go back home to their original island. There was no displacement into other countries. Indonesia doesn't want peace, it keeps murdering and raping and destroying the environment. I forgot to mention that bit. A boycott of palm oil and Indonesian products would stop the environmental genocide and oppression of minority natives across all of Indonesia not only West Papua.

https://www.theguardian.com/global-deve ... -indonesia

https://www.theguardian.com/world/west-papua

The Indonesians are not only massacring people, they are destroying the environment with the mining at Grasberg mine and cutting down the rainforest in Papua and other islands like Sumatra and Borneo to grow palm plantations for palm oil exports. The palm oil in potato chips and oreos is contributing to environmental destruction and persecution. They burned entire forests causing smog pollution to their neighbors in Singapore and Malaysia.

Animals like the orangutan (in Sumatra and Borneo) and Tree-kangaroo (in Papua) are being driven to extinction by palm oil plantations. There was even a case of an orangutan being kept as a sex slave by Indonesians.

https://www.change.org/p/greg-moriarty- ... /u/6590560

It's not only Papuans which are affected but natives on other islands in Indonesia by palm oil and persecution. The Orang Rimba were in Sumatra island were driven off their land by palm oil plantations and forced to convert from animism to Islam.

The Catholic Justice and Peace Commission of the Archdiocese of Brisbane conducted their investigation in Papua at great personal risk.

https://cjpcbrisbane.files.wordpress.co ... y-2016.pdf

Even Al-Jazeera is reporting on what happens in Papua while most American media is silent.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/07/ ... 01513.html

He said those in the photo, which was sent to Al Jazeera in June, were 15 years old.

"Imagine the military attacked the village, killed parents and elders," Sambom said, explaining that the photo had been taken in the district of Nduga where thousands have been displaced by the recent fighting.

"Some took [up] firearms to take revenge for their family's death. This is a political situation, and the world needs to acknowledge this."

Indigenous Papuan rebels have been fighting for independence for at least 50 years, but the evidence that teenagers are joining the fight has caused alarm among community leaders.

"This child's trauma can be a cycle of revenge," Father John Djonga, a prominent Catholic priest in the central highlands, told Al Jazeera. "It will be more terrible in the future," he said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opini ... 43929.html

I’m not disputing any of that apart from the idea that Indonesia is some sort of US/Israeli stooge. They aren’t. There is much more affinity with Iran and Russia. They have been noticeably silent on China. But then China hasn’t forgotten the 1965 massacre of mainly ethnic Chinese commies. Even today there is wide spread animosity toward Christian and Buddhist minorities on Java, who are mainly ethnic Chinese.

So yes, you are right. Indonesia is not the most stable country in the world. Which is why we don’t want to invade them. It would be a disaster similar to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I am sure you would agree that was a bad idea.

Jolo isn’t that far. But more importantly, it would focus Muslim volunteers in any war in the region. We already have Australian troops in the Philippines training their army and RAAF aircraft providing intelligence support. Let’s not turn the whole region into a new version of the Middle East mess.

A peaceful initiative is a better idea. NZ is sufficiently disengaged to be able to lead that, along with the bulk of the Pacific states. Possibly UK involvement with other ASEAN countries could lead to environmental issues being addressed. Asian countries tend to take a more subtle approach than European nations. Something like the intervention in Libya is completely out of the question.

[ThirdTerm]

Little known to the vast majority of Americans, and only known in leftist spheres in the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, is the present genocide in West Papua being carried out by the Indonesian state and military against it's indigenous Melanesian Protestant and Catholic West Papuan people. Melanasians are dark skiinned and bear a resemblance to Africans.

Fig. 2. Yellow and red arrows indicate the inferred route of AMH movement through ISEA around 50 ka (44) (shown with lowered sea levels), following reconstructed areas of savannah-like habitat as above. Modern-day hunter-gatherer populations with genetic data are shown in red, and farming populations are shown in black. The estimated genomic content of EH1 (purple), Denisovan (red), EH2 (brown), and nonarchaic (gray) in modern-day populations (28, 33, 40, 42) is shown in pie charts, as a relative proportion to that seen in Australo-Papuans (full circles). Gray All populations containing large amounts of Denisovan genomic content are found east of Wallace’s Line. Independent introgression events with Denisovan groups are inferred for both the common ancestor of Australo-Papuan, Philippines, and ISEA populations (red circled 2) and, separately, for the Philippines (red circled 4). The signal for a separate introgression with an unknown hominin on Flores, recorded in genomic data from modern-day populations, remains less secure (brown-circled 5). The precise location of introgression events 2, 4, and 5 currently remains unknown. Pie charts with black borders have estimated hominin proportions.

Indonesians and Papuans are both Melanesians with common Denisovan ancestry. Indonesians are genetically similar to Australo-Papuan populations in the region. West Papua was a separate colonial entity ruled by Portugal, while the Dutch East Indies was a Dutch colony liberated by the Japanese Empire and subsequently ruled by Indonesian nationalists. Recent research revealed that H. erectus appeared to survive in Indonesia until about 35,000 to 50,000 years ago and interbred with modern humans. The new study by Teixeira and Cooper (2019) identified two extinct species which interbred with modern humans in Indonesia; EH1 and EH2. The first unknown extinct hominin - named EH1 - was roughly genetically equidistant from Denisovans and Neanderthals, meaning that EH1 was a Neanderthal/Denisovan hybrid. The ancestor of Australo-Papuan populations bred with EH1, resulting in 2.6 to 3.4 percent shared EH1 ancestry. EH2, the extinct hominin that interbred with modern humans on Flores, is likely to be H. erectus or H. floresiensis.

The dispersal of anatomically modern human populations out of Africa and across much of the rest of the world around 55 to 50 thousand years before present (ka) is recorded genetically by the multiple hominin groups they met and interbred with along the way, including the Neandertals and Denisovans. The signatures of these introgression events remain preserved in the genomes of modern-day populations, and provide a powerful record of the sequence and timing of these early migrations, with Asia proving a particularly complex area. At least 3 different hominin groups appear to have been involved in Asia, of which only the Denisovans are currently known. Several interbreeding events are inferred to have taken place east of Wallace’s Line, consistent with archaeological evidence of widespread and early hominin presence in the area. However, archaeological and fossil evidence indicates archaic hominins had not spread as far as the Sahul continent (New Guinea, Australia, and Tasmania), where recent genetic evidence remains enigmatic.
https://www.pnas.org/content/early/2019 ... 1904824116

[foxdemon]

@flame I have a suggestion. Indonesian has a good relationship with Japan. The Japanese provide a lot of aid. If Corbyn wanted to make a positive contribution, he might try talking to the Japanese government and seeing what could be done.

Australia, and indeed Malaysia, aren’t good choices as Indonesia will resent any interference from those countries. Singapore would likely not want to get involved but might work behind the scene. And, as I mentioned, there is NZ.

Japan might be the best bet. But I seriously doubt Corbyn understands Asia well enough to be effective.

[Zionist Nationalist]

@flame I have a suggestion. Indonesian has a good relationship with Japan. The Japanese provide a lot of aid. If Corbyn wanted to make a positive contribution, he might try talking to the Japanese government and seeing what could be done.

Australia, and indeed Malaysia, aren’t good choices as Indonesia will resent any interference from those countries. Singapore would likely not want to get involved but might work behind the scene. And, as I mentioned, there is NZ.

Japan might be the best bet. But I seriously doubt Corbyn understands Asia well enough to be effective.

Corbyn dosent understand anything at all
and Britain is not in a position to influence anything anymore they should stick to uncle sam or things will get even worse for them

[flame]

I’m not disputing any of that apart from the idea that Indonesia is some sort of US/Israeli stooge. They aren’t. There is much more affinity with Iran and Russia. They have been noticeably silent on China. But then China hasn’t forgotten the 1965 massacre of mainly ethnic Chinese commies. Even today there is wide spread animosity toward Christian and Buddhist minorities on Java, who are mainly ethnic Chinese.

So yes, you are right. Indonesia is not the most stable country in the world. Which is why we don’t want to invade them. It would be a disaster similar to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. I am sure you would agree that was a bad idea.

Jolo isn’t that far. But more importantly, it would focus Muslim volunteers in any war in the region. We already have Australian troops in the Philippines training their army and RAAF aircraft providing intelligence support. Let’s not turn the whole region into a new version of the Middle East mess.

A peaceful initiative is a better idea. NZ is sufficiently disengaged to be able to lead that, along with the bulk of the Pacific states. Possibly UK involvement with other ASEAN countries could lead to environmental issues being addressed. Asian countries tend to take a more subtle approach than European nations. Something like the intervention in Libya is completely out of the question.

Your taking on 1965 is incorrect. You're confusing Indonesia with Malaysia. The Malaysian Communist party had many ethnic Chinese members and Chinese leadership and it started a violent insurgency. The Communist Party of Indonesia barely had any ethnic Chinese members and did not start an insurgency, it was minaly composed of and led by Indonesian Muslims. Most of the victims of 1965 were Indonesian Muslims. In Sumatra and Java, Muslims killed other Muslims falsely accusing them of being Communist party members, sometimes to settle old scores if they were from a different ethnicity. Massacres of Chinese which took place alongside the 1965 massacres directed at alleged "Communists" were smaller in scale and were not done because they were Communists. The claim that Chinese were the main targets of 1965 is a deliberate lie promoted by the CIA to deflect from the fact that Indonesian Muslims were killed by their own countrymen. The movie that came out on the topic on the killings in a small bit of Sumatra was part of that deflection. The most bloodshed happened in Java not Sumatra.

Muslims in Jolo don't care about Indonesian imperialist ambitions. They would be affected by a response to the Lumad crisis.

[foxdemon]

Your taking on 1965 is incorrect. You're confusing Indonesia with Malaysia. The Malaysian Communist party had many ethnic Chinese members and Chinese leadership and it started a violent insurgency. The Communist Party of Indonesia barely had any ethnic Chinese members and did not start an insurgency, it was minaly composed of and led by Indonesian Muslims. Most of the victims of 1965 were Indonesian Muslims. In Sumatra and Java, Muslims killed other Muslims falsely accusing them of being Communist party members, sometimes to settle old scores if they were from a different ethnicity. Massacres of Chinese which took place alongside the 1965 massacres directed at alleged "Communists" were smaller in scale and were not done because they were Communists. The claim that Chinese were the main targets of 1965 is a deliberate lie promoted by the CIA to deflect from the fact that Indonesian Muslims were killed by their own countrymen. The movie that came out on the topic on the killings in a small bit of Sumatra was part of that deflection. The most bloodshed happened in Java not Sumatra.

Muslims in Jolo don't care about Indonesian imperialist ambitions. They would be affected by a response to the Lumad crisis.

Ok, well I stand corrected. But the PKI members wouldn’t have been Muslim. Communism is clearly against any religion.

Regardless, should the massacre of Communists been viewed in such a negative light? Surely wiping out the Khmer Rouge or Maoist’s before they got a chance to genocide the populations they took over would have resulted in far few deaths. So the 1965 incident could be viewed as self defense. If armed bunglers break into your house, you have the right to shoot them to defend your family.

But does this excuse Western inaction? Possibly the UK and America should have sent the Indonesian army more ammo so that the commies could more humanely disputed by firing squad rather than being hacked to death by irate villiagers.

[flame]

Ok, well I stand corrected. But the PKI members wouldn’t have been Muslim. Communism is clearly against any religion.

Regardless, should the massacre of Communists been viewed in such a negative light? Surely wiping out the Khmer Rouge or Maoist’s before they got a chance to genocide the populations they took over would have resulted in far few deaths. So the 1965 incident could be viewed as self defense. If armed bunglers break into your house, you have the right to shoot them to defend your family.

But does this excuse Western inaction? Possibly the UK and America should have sent the Indonesian army more ammo so that the commies could more humanely disputed by firing squad rather than being hacked to death by irate villiagers.

The PKI leaders were Dipa Nusantara Aidit (Ahmad Aidit), Muhammad Hatta Lukman and Njoto. They were Muslims and Njoyo was married to a woman of a noble family from the Mangkunegaran princely state. The leaders of Marxist South Yemen were Muslims. The Communist parties of Syria, Sudan and other countries are led by Muslims.

The 1965 incident was started when Suharto arranged for the murder of fellow Indonesian army generals and then linked the murders to the PKI so he would have an excuse to seize power. Hundreds of thousands of random people in Sumatra and Java were killed who were not members of the PKI, murdered for mistaken identity, association or because their killers had old scores to settle and accused them of being communists. The CIA provided kill lists of prominent Indonesian Muslim figures accusing them of being PKI members (with no solid evidence) and told Suharto to murder everyone on the lists.

Anti-Communist nationalists from ethnic minorities hated Suharto. The Acehnese insurgents were not Communist or leftist. They were right-wing Acehnese nationalists fighting against Indonesian rule.

[foxdemon]

Communists are against religion. Specific commies might have originated from Muslim families, but that doesn’t mean they are Muslim. The Ache nationalists, however were practicing Muslims.


Anyway, the important point is to determine the ethical course of action.


Given the commie land reforms, which were instrumental in provoking Muslim backlash against the commies, would have resulted in mass starvation, as was the result of commie agricultural reforms elsewhere in the world. Furthermore, had they managed to seize power, they would have massacred all who opposed them and then some. Again, as commies have done elsewhere in the world.

Thus, the commie purge can be seen as justifiable from a utilitarian point of view. Less people were killed, starved or suffered than would have been the case if the commies had taken over.

We can apply the same ethics to the contemporary situation. Given the Corbynite proposal of intervention in western Indonesia would result in far more deaths and human suffering than non-intervention, surely the ethical solution is to take action against Corbyn and his acolytes. Eliminating Corbyn and his activists by firing squad would result in avoiding much human suffering, not just in Indonesia, but also for other groups they vilify, such as Jews.

It may seem cruel to shoot Corbyn and his mates, but it would result in minimising human suffering in the long run and therefore is the ethical solution.

[Palmyrene]

Communists are against religion. Specific commies might have originated from Muslim families, but that doesn’t mean they are Muslim. The Ache nationalists, however were practicing Muslims.


Anyway, the important point is to determine the ethical course of action.


Given the commie land reforms, which were instrumental in provoking Muslim backlash against the commies, would have resulted in mass starvation, as was the result of commie agricultural reforms elsewhere in the world. Furthermore, had they managed to seize power, they would have massacred all who opposed them and then some. Again, as commies have done elsewhere in the world.

Thus, the commie purge can be seen as justifiable from a utilitarian point of view. Less people were killed, starved or suffered than would have been the case if the commies had taken over.

We can apply the same ethics to the contemporary situation. Given the Corbynite proposal of intervention in western Indonesia would result in far more deaths and human suffering than non-intervention, surely the ethical solution is to take action against Corbyn and his acolytes. Eliminating Corbyn and his activists by firing squad would result in avoiding much human suffering, not just in Indonesia, but also for other groups they vilify, such as Jews.

It may seem cruel to shoot Corbyn and his mates, but it would result in minimising human suffering in the long run and therefore is the ethical solution.

Omg what is with this site and having really bad takes? Like, this, this right here, sucks so much

[foxdemon]

Omg what is with this site and having really bad takes? Like, this, this right here, sucks so much

Which part sucks? The part about not allowing the persecution of Jews, or the part about shooting Corbyn?


Some People in the West, of which Corbyn is representative, often claim they want to make the world a better place. So that would mean a world which minimised human suffering, right? It follows that if these trouble makers are the cause of more human suffering than their policies would prevent, then the way to make the world a better place would be to off them.

This is a completely logical proposal. Furthermore, since they are proposing actions that will result in large numbers of deaths and further human suffering besides, it is only fair to apply the same standards to them. So suggesting they could be shoot by firing squad is OK.