Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Page 27 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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colliric wrote:I think any extradition would set a bad precedent though. China no doubt would push for more to happen. You did it once, why not do it again? And again? And again?


That murderer was requested to be extradited to Taiwan, not China.


colliric wrote:https://www.ft.com/content/8591dcea-c304-11e9-a8e9-296ca66511c9



This news is also extremely disturbing. Of cause the UK has the right to demand their own embassy employees back safely and to know his exact whereabouts but China will call this "foreign meddling" of cause. He has the old pre-1997 HK passport too.

The UK has the right to demand to know where it's employee is and to demand he be returned safely.


FYI, I have already posted that news on page 25 and made a comment.

Come to think of it, the newest wave of skinster might be related to my negative comment against the British leader of opposition in that update, although I made a equally negative, if not more, comment on the British Prime Minister.
#15028353
Follow the money behind Hong Kong protests
The demonstrations in Hong Kong, now an open confrontation with the People’s Republic of China, have a global impact. What are the forces behind this movement? What provides the funds and who stands to benefit?

The increasingly violent demonstrations in Hong Kong are completely embraced and enthusiastically supported in the U.S. corporate media and all the imperialist political parties in the U.S. and Britain. This should be a danger sign to everyone fighting for change and for social progress. U.S. imperialism is never disinterested or neutral.

The disruptive actions involve helmeted and masked protesters using gasoline bombs, flaming bricks, arson and steel bars, random attacks on buses, and airport and mass transit shutdowns. Among the most provocative acts was an organized break-in at the Hong Kong legislature where “activists” vandalized the building and hung the British Union Jack flag.

U.S., British and Hong Kong’s colonial flags are prominent in these confrontations, along with defaced flags and other symbols of People’s China.

The New York Times described the airport shutdown: “The protests at the airport have been deeply tactical, as the largely leaderless movement strikes at a vital economic artery. Hong Kong International Airport, which opened in 1998, the year after China reclaimed the territory from Britain, serves as a gateway to the rest of Asia. Sleek and well run, the airport accommodates nearly 75 million passengers a year and handles more than 5.1 million metric tons of cargo.” (Aug. 14)

U.S. media have consistently labeled these violent actions “pro-democracy.” But are they?

Even if the leaders of these reactionary actions decide to pull back from the brink and recalibrate their tactics, based on the Chinese government’s strong warnings, it is important to understand a movement that has such strong U.S. support.

China has a right to intervene
It must be strongly stated that China is not invading Hong Kong if it moves against these violent disruptions. Hong Kong is part of China. This is an internal matter, and the call for independence for Hong Kong is an open attack on China’s national sovereignty.

Under Hong Kong’s Basic Law, the constitution for the city, the government is legally allowed to request help from the Chinese People’s Liberation Army.

The Chinese government has announced that it will intervene militarily to defend China’s sovereignty. Top government officials have labeled the most extreme acts as “terrorism” and denounced U.S. support. Several times officials raised the analogy to the Western “color revolutions” that violently overturned governments in Serbia, Ukraine, Libya and Haiti and were attempted in Venezuela and Syria.

“The ideologues in Western governments never cease in their efforts to engineer unrest against governments that are not to their liking, even though their actions have caused misery and chaos in country after country in Latin America, Africa, the Middle East and Asia. Now they are trying the same trick in China,” China Daily explained on July 3.

Liu Xiaoming, China’s ambassador to Britain, told reporters that their country was still acting as Hong Kong’s colonial master. (nbcnews.com, July 4)

“A spokeswoman for China’s Foreign Ministry claimed Tuesday that recent comments from American lawmakers Pelosi (D-Ca.) and McConnell (R-Ky.) demonstrate that Washington’s real goal is to incite chaos in the city,” according to CNBC. “By neglecting and distorting the truth, they whitewashed violent crimes as a struggle for human rights and freedom” (Aug. 14)

Where is U.S. support for other resistance?
Hong Kong police are denounced in the U.S. media for violence, but actually have shown great restraint. Despite months of violent confrontations, with flaming bottles constantly thrown, no one has been killed.

There is no such favorable media coverage or support from U.S. politicians for demonstrations of desperate workers and peasants in Honduras, Haiti or the Philippines, or for the yellow vest movement in France. There is never an official condemnation when demonstrators are killed in Yemen or Kashmir or in weekly demonstrations in Gaza against Israeli occupation.

These struggles receive barely a mention, although in every case scores of people have been killed by police, targeted for assassination or disappeared.

While Hong Kong protests receive widespread attention, there is no similar coverage of or political support for Black Lives Matter demonstrations in the U.S. or the masses protesting racist Immigration and Customs Enforcement raids and roundups of migrants.

U.S. pressure continues
Despite China’s warnings of possible martial law, strict curfews and military intervention to restore order, protesters have shown no signs of retreat. The U.S. and Britain are determined to propel forward those hostile political forces they have cultivated over the past two decades.

The escalating demonstrations are linked to the U.S. trade war, tariffs and military encirclement of China. Four hundred — half — of the 800 U.S. overseas military bases surround China. Aircraft carriers, destroyers, nuclear submarines, jet aircraft, Terminal High Altitude Area Defense missile batteries, and satellite surveillance infrastructures are positioned in the South China Sea, close to Hong Kong. Media demonization is needed to justify and intensify this military presence.

Encouraging the demonstrations goes hand-in-hand with international efforts to bar Huawei 5G technology, the cancelation of a joint study of cancer and the arrest of Chinese corporate officers. All these belligerent acts are designed to exert maximum pressure on China, divide the leadership, destabilize economic development and weaken China’s resolve to maintain any socialist planning.

Martial law in Hong Kong, a major financial center, especially for international investment funds coming into China, would impact China’s development.

Capitalist economic “freedom”
British imperialism, in the 155 years it ruled Hong Kong, denied rights to millions of workers. There was no elected government, no right to a minimum wage, unions, decent housing or health care, and certainly no freedom of the press or freedom of speech. These basic democratic rights were not even on the books in colonial Hong Kong.

For the past 25 years, including this year, Hong Kong has been ranked No. 1 in the right-wing Heritage Foundation’s list of countries with the “greatest economic freedom” — meaning the least restraints on capitalist profit taking. Hong Kong’s ranking is based on low taxes and light regulations, the strongest property rights and business freedom, and “openness to global commerce and vibrant entrepreneurial climate … no restrictions on foreign banks.” For this Hong Kong is the “freest society in the world.”

This “freedom” means the world’s highest rents and the greatest gap between the super-rich and the desperately poor and homeless. This is what Hong Kong youth face today. But the youth are consciously being misdirected to blame the city administration for the conditions Hong Kong is locked into under the “One Country, Two Systems agreement.”

An unequal colonial treaty
Hong Kong is stolen land. This spectacular deep water port in the South China Sea at the mouth of the Pearl River, a major waterway in south China, was seized by Britain in the 1842 Opium Wars. After negotiations with Britain had dragged on through the 1980s, the British imposed another unequal treaty on the People’s Republic of China.

Under the 1997 “One Country, Two Systems” agreement that officially returned Hong Kong, Kowloon and the New Territories to the PRC, Britain and China agreed to leave “the previous capitalist system” in place for 50 years.

China, determined to reassert its sovereignty over land stolen by imperialist invasion, also needed funds for development. Most money in Asia moved through the Hong Kong banking system. So in 1997 China was anxious to reach a smooth transition that would not destabilize the transfer of investment funds into the 99.5 percent of China that had previously been denied development funds. Since the victorious Chinese Revolution in 1949, China had been sanctioned and blockaded from accessing Western investment and technology.

U.S. and British imperialism took full advantage of the 1997 concession that maintained their economic control of the former colony. Their hope was that Hong Kong could serve, as it had in the past, as an economic battering ram into China.

Their hopes were not realized. In 1997 Hong Kong’s gross domestic product was 27 percent of China’s gross domestic product. It is now a mere 3 percent and falling. Much to U.S. and British frustration, the world’s largest banks are now in China and they are state-owned banks.

What confounds the capitalist class, far more than China’s incredible growth, is that the top 12 Chinese companies on U.S. Fortune 500 list are all state-owned and state-subsidized. They include massive oil, solar energy, telecommunications, engineering and construction companies, banks and the auto industry. (Fortune.com, July 22, 2015)

U.S. corporate power is deeply threatened by China’s level of development through the Belt and Road Initiative and its growing position in international trade and investment.

U.S., Britain built a network of collaborators
When Britain and China signed the One Country, Two Systems agreement, all foreign intervention and colonial claims on Hong Kong were supposed to end. Full sovereignty was to return to China.

However, U.S. and British efforts to undercut Hong Kong’s return began in advance of the signing. Just before the transfer of sovereignty, Britain hastily set up, after 150 years of appointed officials, a partially elected, although still mainly appointed, government. They quickly established and funded political parties, composed of their loyal collaborators.

Millions of dollars were openly and secretly funneled into a whole network of protected social service organizations, political parties, media and social media, student and youth organizations, and labor unions established to undercut support for China and the Communist Party of China.

The Hong Kong Confederation of Trade Unions receives U.S. National Endowment for Democracy (NED) funding, along with British support. It promotes “pro-democracy, independent unions” throughout China. The HKCTU was established in 1990 to counter and undercut the Hong Kong Federation of Trade Unions founded in 1948, which is still the largest union organization with 410,000 members.

The HKFTU suffered years of brutal repression under British colonial rule as it fought for basic protection of workers’ rights. A strike organized by the HKFTU shook British colonial rule in 1967. The strike became a citywide rebellion sparked by mass layoffs of workers from the plastic flower factory. British colonial authorities harshly suppressed the uprising, resulting in 51 deaths and hundreds injured and disappeared. The HKFTU supports China and opposes the reactionary demonstrations.

NED funding = CIA support
Allen Weinstein, a founder of the NED, told the Washington Post in 1991, “A lot of what we do today was done covertly 25 years ago by the CIA.” (Sept. 21, 1991) The NED funds, coordinates and weaponizes nongovernmental organizations and social organizations with the capacity to put tens of thousands of misdirected, idealistic and alienated youth on the streets.

Funding from the NED, the Ford, Rockefeller, Soros and numerous other corporate foundations, christian churches of every denomination, and generous British funding, is behind this hostile, subversive network orchestrating the Hong Kong protests.

The NED bankrolls the Hong Kong Human Rights Movement, the Hong Kong Journalists Association, the Civic Party, Labor Party and Democratic Party. They are members of the Civil Human Rights Front that coordinates the demonstrations.

This role of the NED in China is increasingly harder to obscure. Alexander Rubinstein reported in “American Gov’t, NGOs Fuel and Fund Hong Kong Anti-Extradition Protests” (mintpressnews.com, June 13): “It is inconceivable that the organizers of the protests are unaware of the NED ties to some of its members.” (tinyurl.com/y6nhmapz)

The goal is to promote a hostile and suspicious attitude toward China and toward communism and to foster the false concept of a past democratic Hong Kong with a distinct identity. China Daily warns: “In recent years, there have been warnings that color revolutions are emerging as a new form of warfare employed by the West to destabilize certain countries.” (Aug. 12)

Which system works better?
The Aug. 13 New York Times refers to Hong Kong as a “bastion of civil liberties” to counter “Beijing’s brand of authoritarianism.”

British colonial past is deeply mythologized. Twenty-two years of constant nostalgia for this past, supposedly glorious time has influenced increasingly impoverished youth.

Despite decades of multimillion-dollar Western funding, Hong Kong has a poverty rate of 20 percent (23.1 percent for children) compared to less than 1 percent in mainland China. In the past 20 years, mainland China has lifted countless millions of people out of poverty

Just across the river from Hong Kong sits the city of Shenzhen. It is one of the Special Economic Zones established to lure Western technology. These zones, originally with thousands of labor-intensive factories and millions of workers earning low wages, were centers of capitalist exploitation and enormous profits for U.S. and other global capitalists.

Shenzhen grew from a city of 30,000 in 1979 to a megacity of 20 million, with the largest migrant population in China. Shenzhen had a population three times the size of Hong Kong. With investments via Hong Kong, this new city became a massive polluted factory town with sweatshops spewing out clouds of dark toxic smoke.

In the past five years, through city and national urban planning, Shenzhen is today one of the most livable cities in China, with extensive parks, tree-lined streets and the largest fleet of electric buses in the world (16,000), along with all-electric cabs. Shenzhen aims to have 80 percent of its new buildings green-certified by 2020. It is full of apartment blocks, office towers and modern factories with advanced equipment manufacturing, robotics, automation and giant tech startups.

For the last 10 years wages have been stagnant in Hong Kong while rents have increased 300 percent; it is the most expensive city in the world. In Shenzhen, wages have increased 8 percent every year, and more than 1 million new, public, green housing units at low rates are nearing completion.

The U.S. is demanding that China abandon state support of its industries, the ownership of its banks and national planning. But contrasting the decay, growing poverty and intense alienation in Hong Kong with the green vibrant city of Shenzhen across the river shows that there are two choices for China today, including the angry forces mobilized in Hong Kong: modern socialist planning or a return to the super-exploitation and imperialist domination of the colonial past.

For decades Britain and the U.S. used the people of Hong Kong for cheap labor. Now they are using the same population for cheap political propaganda. This cynical maneuver is just one more weapon in a desperate effort to disrupt China’s further development.

U.S. corporate power is incapable of meeting any of the desperate needs for housing, health care, education and a healthy environment for people here. Instead, in a relentless drive for profits, enormous resources are squandered on militarism to threaten countries around the world.
https://iacenter.org/2019/08/18/whats-b ... -protests/


Patrickov wrote:Many, inlcluding the victim's father, said that one-off extradition (without making a controversial law) is ok. Carrie Lam didn't listen.


Yup. I was just pointing out it was the victim of a woman who was horrifically murdered that lobbied for the extradition treaty so her killer could face justice. Anyway, the treaty was suspended.

AFAIK wrote:Why does anybody engage skinster? She clearly hasn't learnt anything from the previous 25 pages of discussion and can't be bothered finding out what the protesters' demands are.


Why do people ITT repeatedly cry and call for banning when seeing an alternative point of view? If you disagree, you have an option of ignoring me instead of crying like a baby because you see words that don't align with your worldview. There are others who appreciate some of the links i share ITT, if I am to judge by the posts of mine that have been liked here.

If you want just one point of view on this topic, all you need to do is turn on your TV news. :D
#15028432
skinster wrote:Yup. I was just pointing out it was the victim of a woman who was horrifically murdered that lobbied for the extradition treaty so her killer could face justice. Anyway, the treaty was suspended.



Why do people ITT repeatedly cry and call for banning when seeing an alternative point of view? If you disagree, you have an option of ignoring me instead of crying like a baby because you see words that don't align with your worldview. There are others who appreciate some of the links i share ITT, if I am to judge by the posts of mine that have been liked here.

If you want just one point of view on this topic, all you need to do is turn on your TV news. :D


What you shared are not "alternative views", but "false accusations", "exaggerations", or outright lies.

There are already enough human scums (especially the Chinese authorities themselves) spewing the shit you repeated re-distribute, and repeatedly rebuffed. If we don't speak for our freedom and justice then it WILL be truly one-sided. It is YOU who assert for one point of view, not us. Noemon Edit: Rule 2 Violation
#15028534
Patrickov wrote:What you shared are not "alternative views", but "false accusations", "exaggerations", or outright lies.

There are already enough human scums (especially the Chinese authorities themselves) spewing the shit you repeated re-distribute, and repeatedly rebuffed. If we don't speak for our freedom and justice then it WILL be truly one-sided. It is YOU who assert for one point of view, not us. Asshole.



Historically, there were people who supported Hitler and Stalin. When it became known what those leaders had been responsible for, those supporters were shown up for what they were. For this reason, I don’t worry much about skinster’s posts. He/she/it is obviously in the wrong and doesn’t hold much credibility. Nor do the leftie sources quoted. They are just the latest incarnation of Stalin’s useful idiots. 8)
#15028585
Patrickov wrote:What you shared are not "alternative views", but "false accusations", "exaggerations", or outright lies.

There are already enough human scums (especially the Chinese authorities themselves) spewing the shit you repeated re-distribute, and repeatedly rebuffed. If we don't speak for our freedom and justice then it WILL be truly one-sided. It is YOU who assert for one point of view, not us. Asshole.



Skinster is so cheeky she basically telling you to bow down and give away your freedom
#15028661
I recently moved to Guangzhou (1 hour by fast train from Hong Kong) from Shanghai. Among many Chinese, there is talk about Hong Kong, but most of the mainland Chinese I know feel mixed about HK because they both have grievances and yet are perceived to be also in the wrong because some of the protests became violent.

There is also some interesting and plausible talk about how some of the violence might have been instigated by PRC agents wanting to sabotage the protests and delegitimize them, which is an obsession of Beijing. The current president is power mad and the current crisis in Hong Kong, with the proposed legislation being clearly pressured by Beijing, is a surprisingly impatient move from a government that wants to project soft Chinese power and present themselves as a peaceful, prosperous nation. Taiwan is watching, and yet instead of simply backing down on the extradition bill and waiting a couple more decades when HK loses all of its democratic institutions, Xi Jinping, who is completely obsessed with power and micromanagement, orders a troop buildup on the border instead.

The protests are a lost cause in about 2 more decades, but Beijing’s open duplicity and inability to simply be patient and wait a few years makes it look even worse.

@skinster Hong Kong has a uniqueness to it from having been a colony, namely that it managed to retain much of its Cantonese culture and heritage. Here in the mainland, there is a depressing uniformity to most big cities and small towns with some variations of course. Cantonese culture has been suppressed for decades, largely with their language being unofficially kept out of schools. Even here where I live, many children in school have no knowledge of Cantonese. Already, Hong Kong has been going downhill and becoming just another Chinese city. Once it fully integrates in a couple decades, it will rapidly lose what’s left of its culture and soon, in time, even there, Cantonese will rapidly vanish.
#15028725
Bulaba Jones wrote:I recently moved to Guangzhou (1 hour by fast train from Hong Kong) from Shanghai.


The Diaspora still calls Guangzhou it's English Cantonese-transliterated name Canton and still calls Peking Duck, well Peking Duck.

I have a feeling Cantonese and Taiwanese Culture will continue to dominate the Diaspora communities, and they will remain highly hostile to Mainlanders.

Especially if what you say "it will rapidly lose what’s left of its culture and soon, in time, even there, Cantonese will rapidly vanish" happens. That will result in more immigration out if Hong Kong into the Diaspora. So Cantonese culture will go from strength to strength outside China and maybe even get stronger, but be treated like crap "at home" as usual (it's already been happening).
#15028769
I don’t quite feel like Cantonese is treated like crap necessarily, but it is essentially promoted against and the government wants it to vanish in favor of Mandarin uniformity.

It isn’t just language, though. Mainland China is so astonishingly rude and there are endless numbers of people with very little social education. China’s cultural revolution retarded (in the actual sense, not as an insult) an entire generation of people. Over here, you’ll find people spitting on the floor of buses, smoking in restaurants, being incapable of forming lines, throwing trash literally wherever they want, and so on. That same kind of behavior is creeping into Hong Kong as it slowly integrates.
#15028770
Bulaba Jones wrote:I don’t quite feel like Cantonese is treated like crap necessarily, but it is essentially promoted against and the government wants it to vanish in favor of Mandarin uniformity.

It isn’t just language, though. Mainland China is so astonishingly rude and there are endless numbers of people with very little social education. China’s cultural revolution retarded (in the actual sense, not as an insult) an entire generation of people. Over here, you’ll find people spitting on the floor of buses, smoking in restaurants, being incapable of forming lines, throwing trash literally wherever they want, and so on. That same kind of behavior is creeping into Hong Kong as it slowly integrates.


Smoking I have never liked Bulaba. But? Tobacco was the Caribbean Indians gift of death to the Europeans who embraced it enthusiastically and China is one of the nations Phillips Morris still can expand their market in.
#15028786
Bulaba Jones wrote:It isn’t just language, though. Mainland China is so astonishingly rude and there are endless numbers of people with very little social education. China’s cultural revolution retarded (in the actual sense, not as an insult) an entire generation of people. Over here, you’ll find people spitting on the floor of buses, smoking in restaurants, being incapable of forming lines, throwing trash literally wherever they want, and so on. That same kind of behavior is creeping into Hong Kong as it slowly integrates.


I am happy I got to see this last year. Those damn Hire Bikes you forgot to mention.

It looked like the Chinese Communist Party just decided buying New ones is cheaper than picking up discarded trashed ones and fixing them. As a result a gazillion discarded old hire bikes litter the streets everywhere. EVERYWHERE!

Also I was not too surprised I was being haggled everywhere by street buskers who target tourists. And using trains in China, better get use to being pushed in as soon as those doors open. No waiting till everyone gets off first over there.

China is not too unclean though. Central Beijing is nice and clean, your cities CBDs aren't too bad. Very little cars in the central spots. Except for the air of cause (terrible air quality, and weirds smells everywhere in Shanghai especially). Lucky there were Potty toilets in all the places I saw. Lucky.
#15028842
skinster wrote:https://soundcloud.com/moderaterebels/hong-kong-protests-anti-china-nativism-carl-zha





Anyone speaking in support of an entity proven to be tyrannical to their own people deserve banning. The news are very lazy as they do not reveal what the criticism themselves are.

People like you and the commentators on those tweets in support of China should be deported to China immediately. (to clarify this, I fully support any Chinese decision to deport us to whatever Free Western / Commonwealth country willing to accept us, although I will not actively seek emigration as I think this is submission to Chinese ideological invasion)
#15028851
Patrickov wrote:Anyone speaking in support of an entity proven to be tyrannical to their own people deserve banning.


These are the same people that would for example, denounce Israel (I think rightly so) as tyrannical and a violator of human rights. Yet, for some reason support China. :?: This means they probably have some other motive that is not human rights or freedom. They are not being honest with what this underlying motive is. Thus, to me, they are spineless people.
#15028856
Rancid wrote:These are the same people that would for example, denounce Israel (I think rightly so) as tyrannical and a violator of human rights. Yet, for some reason support China. :?: This means they probably have some other motive that is not human rights or freedom. They are not being honest with what this underlying motive is. Thus, to me, they are spineless people.


Skinster is just a Marxist Socialist and therefore prone to concurrently supporting all forms of communism while also opposing Israel(often viewed as a capitalist country or pawn of the USA).

It's a common view in some more militant left-wing circles. I understand it, but I don't agree with it. It was odd how Skinster basically came out fully in this thread, but ok yeah whatever.
#15028871
I was in China 12 years ago and encountered plenty of pushing, people driving straight through you, etc. The toilets on the overnight trains were an experience. People would miss the squat toilet and just leave their waste there. No consideration for others. Apparently their tourists are so bad they are provided their own facilities in some places.
#15028876
Rancid wrote:These are the same people that would for example, denounce Israel (I think rightly so) as tyrannical and a violator of human rights. Yet, for some reason support China. :?: This means they probably have some other motive that is not human rights or freedom. They are not being honest with what this underlying motive is. Thus, to me, they are spineless people.


As evil as Israel goes, at least they respect their own citizens. The same cannot be said of China.
#15028882
AFAIK wrote:I was in China 12 years ago and encountered plenty of pushing, people driving straight through you, etc. The toilets on the overnight trains were an experience. People would miss the squat toilet and just leave their waste there. No consideration for others. Apparently their tourists are so bad they are provided their own facilities in some places.


Their tyrannical government simply discouraged any form of consideration, and the people now almost always scheme against each other. That's why some Hongkongers often refer that place as Hell / Ghost Country.

In fact I don't think a simple change of regime can solve things, but in some sense I acknowledge that there might be places that such a "simple" system would work. Just make sure they don't interfere anywhere else.
#15028892
colliric wrote:Skinster is just a Marxist Socialist and therefore prone to concurrently supporting all forms of communism while also opposing Israel(often viewed as a capitalist country or pawn of the USA).

It's a common view in some more militant left-wing circles. I understand it, but I don't agree with it. It was odd how Skinster basically came out fully in this thread, but ok yeah whatever.


That's exactly my point.

These people will often claim moral superiority over their claimed enemies, but the reality is, they are not morally superiority, and in fact, just as immoral. This is what I mean by they are spineless. They are not forthright with their true nature. It's deceitful. They can't even be honest with themselves.

I have far far far more respect for people who are morally reprehensible, but at least acknowledge that fact about themselves (i.e. don't hide it), than those who are morally reprehensible and don't acknowledge that fact (i.e. hide it). People like skinster are the latter, which is why I have no respect for these people. It's spineless, no other way to put it.

I will respect these people more once they give up the moral superiority charade. That's all it takes for me to respect you. I do not have to agree with you at all for me to respect you. of course , didn't mean you specifically.

As you can see, for me, it really isn't about who is right or wrong in any of this. It's about the approach in which people take to these kinds of issues. that's what determines if I respect your ideas (whether I agree or not). This is why I can have tremendous respect for people I nearly always disagree with. Because they aren't slimey when they express their true ideas/feelings/intent. They do not lie to themselves.
Last edited by Rancid on 23 Aug 2019 17:28, edited 3 times in total.
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