End of maduro - hopefully. - Page 52 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15029031
How many bribes to major banking officials do you need to cause economic problems?

Probably not that much.

Add a few cyber attacks to major corporations and state apparatuses.

Bribe some trucker and other distributor unions to go on strike at a crucial time.

Get a few newspaper editors to make stories about how the economy is falling apart.

And this is just off the top of my head. Imagine what the CIA could think up.
#15029038
Pants-of-dog wrote:How many bribes to major banking officials do you need to cause economic problems?

Probably not that much.

Add a few cyber attacks to major corporations and state apparatuses.

Bribe some trucker and other distributor unions to go on strike at a crucial time.

Get a few newspaper editors to make stories about how the economy is falling apart.

And this is just off the top of my head. Imagine what the CIA could think up.


You forgot about hiring gangs to create general civil unrest. That one works pretty well too.
#15029041
Pants-of-dog wrote:How many bribes to major banking officials do you need to cause economic problems?

Probably not that much.

Add a few cyber attacks to major corporations and state apparatuses.

Bribe some trucker and other distributor unions to go on strike at a crucial time.

Get a few newspaper editors to make stories about how the economy is falling apart.

And this is just off the top of my head. Imagine what the CIA could think up.


It just doesn't work that way. If it was that simple then this would work visa versa. But it simply doesn't.
#15040497
JohnRawls wrote:It just doesn't work that way. If it was that simple then this would work visa versa. But it simply doesn't.


What a load of rubbish, he may well be fat, a greasy stoned old onion, and a raving loony druggie slummy thug, but Gaido is bad as well.

Typical western imperialiast warmongering & regime change being spouted by the amoeba...."any change is better than this". Libya.. Pinochet... thousands of examples where western intervention royally fucked things up.

Sorry, but no one with a shred of intelligence in Europe is busy following Trump's tub thumping on this one. PS: Despite Maduro's gangsterism; the '13 elections were rated as more democratic than the US's lol..and the subsequent later elections suffered from US interference both times. So technically this mess is 100% purely the fault of the US of A and her fat, hairy brainless slug acolytes in Europe and elsewhere.. :roll:
#15040502
Presvias wrote:What a load of rubbish, he may well be fat, a greasy stoned old onion, and a raving loony druggie slummy thug, but Gaido is bad as well.

Typical western imperialiast warmongering & regime change being spouted by the amoeba...."any change is better than this". Libya.. Pinochet... thousands of examples where western intervention royally fucked things up.

Sorry, but no one with a shred of intelligence in Europe is busy following Trump's tub thumping on this one. PS: Despite Maduro's gangsterism; the '13 elections were rated as more democratic than the US's lol..and the subsequent later elections suffered from US interference both times. So technically this mess is 100% purely the fault of the US of A and her fat, hairy brainless slug acolytes in Europe and elsewhere.. :roll:


Utter nonsense. How is an election where parties are banned/split and where a 2nd parliament is created to compete with the 1st parliament democratic in any sense?

As for economic collpase via bribery... If it worked that way then why does Venezuela not buy out US people and make US economy collapse? Or China? Or USSR? etc
#15040510
Argue with the facts, it's not what I want to be true, it's what IS true:

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2 ... igned.html

And what are you talking about economic collapse via bribery?

Some fun facts for you:

It's PROVEN that the CIA were behind the Yeltsin coup in USSR..
China was under intense pressure when Mao decided to turn towards capitalism in the 70s..

The economic collapse is a direct result of sanctions in VE's case.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 48201.html

And according to another WSJ piece; the interference started in Venezuela started in 2012. I'll try and find the article later. So the 'utter nonsense' isn't coming from me..
#15040747
Presvias wrote:Argue with the facts, it's not what I want to be true, it's what IS true:

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2 ... igned.html

And what are you talking about economic collapse via bribery?

Some fun facts for you:

It's PROVEN that the CIA were behind the Yeltsin coup in USSR..
China was under intense pressure when Mao decided to turn towards capitalism in the 70s..

The economic collapse is a direct result of sanctions in VE's case.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 48201.html

And according to another WSJ piece; the interference started in Venezuela started in 2012. I'll try and find the article later. So the 'utter nonsense' isn't coming from me..


Good luck arguing that elections in Venezuela are more democratic-open than the US elections. Especially the latest presidential ones for Maduro.

As for collapse thing. We were talking about bribery and there is literally NO OFFICIAL evidence besides conspiracy theories about Yeltsin being a US puppet. So try again.
#15040766
^ Wow, you really are brainwashed aren't you.. :O

Yeltsin nothing to do with the west?

Ok if you can't even accept widely proven truthes like that, there's no point carrying on. The us flag waving hairy sluggy amoebaish types, plus the stoned old onions in VE's govt right now will continue to ride roughshod over the people, and it's largely America's fault..
#15040784
Presvias wrote:^ Wow, you really are brainwashed aren't you.. :O

Yeltsin nothing to do with the west?

Ok if you can't even accept widely proven truthes like that, there's no point carrying on. The us flag waving hairy sluggy amoebaish types, plus the stoned old onions in VE's govt right now will continue to ride roughshod over the people, and it's largely America's fault..


Yeltsin was not a puppet of the west. He wasn't bribed even. He was a more than everage incompetent president of Russia ruling it at a time of weakness and collapse of the Soviet Union. He had no choice in the matter of not agreeing with some of the things the West requisted because they just lost the cold war. It was not a very prudent decision by the West because the extravagance of post-cold war Versailles on Russia is haunting us now with Crimea for example. (Yeltsin went batshit when Crimea wasn't given back to Russia during his time. There are transcripts of calls) CIA had no fucking clue of how to collapse Russia. Most of the former CIA analysts and cold war analysts were shocked when it happened. In a sense they never expected that Russian nationalism would collapse the USSR.
#15047759
Morales just resigned. I guess not all Latin American hard left politicians are power hungry monsters. For some reason when hard left in Latin America does badly it has a very hard time stepping aside and letting somebody else have a shot. As much shit as Morales will get, he ultimately did the right thing. Compared to some others, he might be an example. Yes one side will say that he still tried to cheat and the other will call it a CIA hit job but whatever. In the end it ended more or less peacefully.
#15047784
JohnRawls wrote:Morales just resigned. I guess not all Latin American hard left politicians are power hungry monsters. For some reason when hard left in Latin America does badly it has a very hard time stepping aside and letting somebody else have a shot. As much shit as Morales will get, he ultimately did the right thing. Compared to some others, he might be an example. Yes one side will say that he still tried to cheat and the other will call it a CIA hit job but whatever. In the end it ended more or less peacefully.


In some sense there is a thin line between being power-hunger or simply self-preservation. When the situation goes south rapidly, even if they step down they are not going to end well. This is what exactly is happening to whoever in charge of the Police Force and / or the regime in Hong Kong. In such circumstances a "Coup de grâce" is actually the most benevolent way to make thing turn out the better for both sides. I believe it is the same for Maduro, although to defeat him it might be necessary to defeat both Russia and China first.
#15047851
So ... leftwing leaders are great if they resign ? Yikes.

I very strongly doubt a rightwinger would say the same thing about ANY rightwing leader if those resign.




JohnRawls wrote:Yeltsin was not a puppet of the west.


I fail to see what else he could have done to be only even more a puppet of the west.

He even was about to sell the west the russian raw materials, I think it was the gas ? But Putin took over quickly enough that this deal was stopped.
#15047853
Negotiator wrote:So ... leftwing leaders are great if they resign ? Yikes.

I very strongly doubt a rightwinger would say the same thing about ANY rightwing leader if those resign.


They resign all the time. David Cameron, Theresa May, Rhee Syngman, de Gaulle, most Japanese prime ministers before Abe, etc.

And then those hold power till they die, like Mussolini, Hitler, or to a lesser extent, Chiang Kai-shek, I believe the consensus among them are well-known and do not need my repetition.
#15047866
Negotiator wrote:So ... leftwing leaders are great if they resign ? Yikes.

I very strongly doubt a rightwinger would say the same thing about ANY rightwing leader if those resign.






I fail to see what else he could have done to be only even more a puppet of the west.

He even was about to sell the west the russian raw materials, I think it was the gas ? But Putin took over quickly enough that this deal was stopped.


Once again people are warping my words. Below applies to anyone from any ideology. The problem of not resigning when you are doing badly is that:

a) It creates resentment from people. Yes you might be able to fix it later but highly likely you won't. Growing resentment is destabilising. You shouldn't gamble overall stability on your personal ability or ability of your group. Very often people in power misjudge themselves. And resentment will only bread further resentment over time.

b) Shifting to autocratic rule stagnates the overall system. When a leader resigns then usually a lot more than just the leader leave. So the system gets an influx of new blood, new ideas, gets rid of corruption and nepotism to a degree. Democratic process also is preventative in this regard. Your opponents have an inherent interest to expose your "bad" dealings to get elected themselves. If the leader stays then usually the same people stay around also. Yes they get shuffled but to a great lesser degree. So corruption grows, nepotism grows etc. This is perhaps one of the two greatest benefits of a democratic system.

c) Question of succession becomes more vague. All autocracies and totalitarian system have this inbuilt aspect in to them. The more totalitarian or autocratic the system, the more unstable it is at the moment of succession and after. Some people won't know who the next person will be at all. (Example: Who is after Putin?) Some people will fight to maintain their access to power. (Power struggle for succession between the old guard and new challengers) Some will just want to rise above others (Struggle after Lenins death or after Stalins death). In democracy its a bit more simpler, you get an election.

d) Autocracy and totalitarianism is a discouraging of general entrepreneurship and social mobility. What i mean by this is that those system usually rely on 2 components: control of thinking and control of social mobility. Control of thinking is pretty self-explanatory: censorship, control of media, control of ideas etc. This narrows the point of view of the people in the right direction to create a sort of social cohesion what the Autocracy wants(Which is stabilising by the way) BUT it also limits the idea field of sorts. Depending on the censorship/control/etc it might lead to either narrow thinking in science, management ideas, etc. The other part is the control of social mobility which is perhaps the biggest tool used to control people. If you control the life chances of people then they have no way not to obey you of sorts. You disobey and you get cut off, you obey and you get rewarded. This is not a meritocratic system at its core. I do not think that any group of people can have a sane way to control social mobility by decision.

e) There is some inefficiency that is built in the system. You can't have your management apparatus or security apparatus grow to powerful and competent. It is dangerous for the autocrat because in case of security apparatus then they could just oppress you if they are too good at it. If the management gets to powerful and competent then they might consider the autocrat irrelevant and not needed. So corruption and incompetence is tolerated on this level to show something along the lines "What are you going to do without me?" or "If i get removed then you might soon follow due to your incompetence".

Some autocracies and totalitarian regimes tried to tackle those important points and it is not like it is a secret. It is just hard to tackle them all at the same time.
#15047914
JohnRawls wrote:Morales just resigned. I guess not all Latin American hard left politicians are power hungry monsters. For some reason when hard left in Latin America does badly it has a very hard time stepping aside and letting somebody else have a shot. As much shit as Morales will get, he ultimately did the right thing. Compared to some others, he might be an example. Yes one side will say that he still tried to cheat and the other will call it a CIA hit job but whatever. In the end it ended more or less peacefully.


As usual you're absolutely wrong and what took place in Bolivia is a CIA-backed coup.

This thread has the details:
#15047925
skinster wrote:As usual you're absolutely wrong and what took place in Bolivia is a CIA-backed coup.

This thread has the details:


You are honestly Alex Jones by now. Just instead of crazy conspiracy theories you proclaim CIA/US coups everywhere.
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