Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Page 30 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15029335
skinster wrote:Not really sure how to read it. Want to rephrase it?


Maybe it was my phrasing. I was saying that the protests are largely organic. They’re too big and disorganized to be anything but. However, I do think that the CIA already has people involved at this stage because Washington still has a wet dream, no matter how unrealistic and different from the USSR China is, that we can somehow spark a color revolution in China.

That said, the protests aren’t controlled by the CIA, and American involvement is negligible.
#15029340
AFAIK wrote:So basically skinster is a reactionary? If the USA supports the protesters she is anti-protesters, if the US supports the gov't she is anti-gov't. Irregardless of the underlying issues.


That seems to be the case. I don't even think she has much of an ideology. She might be MList though.
#15029396
Bulaba Jones wrote: Washington still has a wet dream, no matter how unrealistic and different from the USSR China is, that we can somehow spark a color revolution in China.


Why would Washington want to get rid of its favorite gulag capitalists? The Washington planners went to a lot of trouble setting up the gulag capitalism over there, they don't want to overthrow it. The US establishment is even vehemently opposed to Trump's little trade scuffle with China, Washington doesn't want any disruptions to an arrangement that took decades to put in place.
#15029397
Ideally, however unrealistic it may be, we would prefer a less authoritarian, nationalistic China despite any temporary instability. One of the reasons we engaged with a reforming China in the Deng era and beyond is because we thought a rise in wealth and prosperity would lead to corresponding rise in the numbers of Chinese who are middle class, educated, and dissatisfied with the CPC. Ironically, almost the opposite has happened, and though we still dream about a true Tiananmen, it’s not going to materialize. Most Chinese industry occurs around many big cities and ones easily connected to the coast. Xi’an and Beijing have vast networks of factories blowing toxic clouds across China for starters. Some people even suggested any instability wouldn’t completely mitigate production of goods.

It makes very little sense, and it is stupid for US intelligence to dick around in Hong Kong because nothing good will come of any US involvement. Hong Kong is a lost cause and in thirty years, anyone trying to demonstrate in public can be legally detained and held indefinitely.

I watched a police officer grab an old man and drag him into a van off the street. I am not fluent in Chinese, but someone I was with translated the comments of an old woman trying to run after them, who I guess was his wife, was demanding to know why he was being arrested and where they were taking him.

That’s the surface level dark shit Hong Kong is heading for, but it can’t be stopped.
#15029405
Bulaba Jones wrote:Ideally, however unrealistic it may be, we would prefer a less authoritarian, nationalistic China despite any temporary instability. One of the reasons we engaged with a reforming China in the Deng era and beyond is because we thought a rise in wealth and prosperity would lead to corresponding rise in the numbers of Chinese who are middle class, educated, and dissatisfied with the CPC. Ironically, almost the opposite has happened, and though we still dream about a true Tiananmen, it’s not going to materialize. Most Chinese industry occurs around many big cities and ones easily connected to the coast. Xi’an and Beijing have vast networks of factories blowing toxic clouds across China for starters. Some people even suggested any instability wouldn’t completely mitigate production of goods.

It makes very little sense, and it is stupid for US intelligence to dick around in Hong Kong because nothing good will come of any US involvement. Hong Kong is a lost cause and in thirty years, anyone trying to demonstrate in public can be legally detained and held indefinitely.

I watched a police officer grab an old man and drag him into a van off the street. I am not fluent in Chinese, but someone I was with translated the comments of an old woman trying to run after them, who I guess was his wife, was demanding to know why he was being arrested and where they were taking him.

That’s the surface level dark shit Hong Kong is heading for, but it can’t be stopped.


Your defeatist statements will not help matters. If everyone is like you there will be no change.
#15029422
Lol at AFAIK responding to my question to his post that he directed to me with an ad-hom. Your weak sauce is noted. :lol:

A discussion on HK protests between a couple of communists (George Galloway and Dr Ranjeet Brar)


Bulaba Jones wrote:That said, the protests aren’t controlled by the CIA, and American involvement is negligible.


Again, I never said the protesters are controlled by the CIA. I said, and shared sources proving, the National Endowment for Democracy(lol)'s involvement with some of the organizers of these protests, that amounts to over 20 million dollars for the past number of years. If you think that's negligible, you're entitled to that thought. Don't worry, I won't repeatedly attack you for having that opinion, since I'm not a massive baby and accept other people think differently. :D
#15029449
The HK protest has a good analogy though for communism/socialism. Back in the days of the Cold War, the USSR crushed the Czechoslovak reformist movement. A lot of historians nowadays consider this a moment when communism could have changed for the better in its own way but failed to do so by the hardliners. You know, Socialism/Communism with a human face that they later attempted but ultimately failed in the 80s. Also the crushing of this reformist movement was not necessary, as i have done some reading on the matter, most of the people were socialists/communists and wanted to change socialism/communism instead of transitioning to capitalism.

Same analogy is here, HK was not necessarily against China at the start of this all. HK was also not against the one state two systems approach. But as the Chinese continued to crush them more and more, so the protest became more hardlined in sense and now are a bit more anti-China compared to being just a general reform movement several years ago. Basically is this the CCPs Czechoslovakian moment? Is this the point where they refuse to reform and complicate things further for them in the end?
#15029453
JohnRawls wrote:The HK protest has a good analogy though for communism/socialism. Back in the days of the Cold War, the USSR crushed the Czechoslovak reformist movement. A lot of historians nowadays consider this a moment when communism could have changed for the better in its own way but failed to do so by the hardliners. You know, Socialism/Communism with a human face that they later attempted but ultimately failed in the 80s. Also the crushing of this reformist movement was not necessary, as i have done some reading on the matter, most of the people were socialists/communists and wanted to change socialism/communism instead of transitioning to capitalism.

Same analogy is here, HK was not necessarily against China at the start of this all. HK was also not against the one state two systems approach. But as the Chinese continued to crush them more and more, so the protest became more hardlined in sense and now are a bit more anti-China compared to being just a general reform movement several years ago. Basically is this the CCPs Czechoslovakian moment? Is this the point where they refuse to reform and complicate things further for them in the end?


There is a network of concentration camps in Xinjiang holding perhaps a million people. There are houses with QR codes the government scans to monitor them. Some households have government minders staying with them. In Tibet, banners of Xi are often behind bulletproof glass. If people talk or demonstrate, they can be swept up and their families might only hear something months after a conviction for whatever charge they want.

The problem with China’s response to HK is Xi Jinping. People around him might be able to convince him to be more subtle with HK, but the CPC is not going to reform in any meaningful way.

@Patrickov I'm not a Chinese citizen so it’s not my business to play hipster activist for a pointless cause in HK. HK is slated to integrate into the PRC in a few decades. At most, the protests can pressure Beijing to back off the extradition law, but in 30 years it literally won’t matter because by then, people can be legally arrested for saying what you’re saying.

You need to be realistic about the future.
_________________________________

Last year I moved into my first apartment in Shanghai and since I’m a foreigner I had to register with the police. Each area is served by a particular police station, so I waited around the neighborhood at the station until my apartment agent showed up to help me file the required paperwork. I wandered down the street a bit and noticed a few people standing around in front of a nearby building. More people started to gather. Someone pulled out a long banner with writing painted on it and a few people held it up. A bunch of them started bashing into the metal gate in front of the building, behind which a couple security guards tried to hold them off. The group of people broke in and the scene turned into one of a small crowd surrounding two or three security guards, all yelling and shouting with the broken gate behind them. I was snapping pictures, and then suddenly I thought about my situation: a white foreigner taking photos in front of a somewhat violent demonstration a block away from a police station, with Shanghai’s ever-present CCTV cameras everywhere watching, including that scene. The sense of panic was tremendous and I got the fuck away before any police showed up.
#15029456
Bulaba Jones wrote:@Patrickov I'm not a Chinese citizen so it’s not my business to play hipster activist for a pointless cause in HK. HK is slated to integrate into the PRC in a few decades. At most, the protests can pressure Beijing to back off the extradition law, but in 30 years it literally won’t matter because by then, people can be legally arrested for saying what you’re saying.

You need to be realistic about the future.


Don't tell me this bullshit. Tell my parents, my friends, and the 1m+ people who took to the streets.

We do this exactly because we know what's happening. It is you who should learn the truth better. There is a Chinese proverb called ""The mantis stalks the cicada, unaware of the oriole behind". If we are the cicadas, then I am pretty sure that Donald Trump is the oriole. Not that he's in aid of us, but with this guy around I am confident that China will go down along with us. In other words, don't expect us to accept going down alone.

Noemon Edit: Rule 2 Violation

Image
#15029458
Again, the demonstrations will do nothing. HK will integrate, the CPC will open offices across HK, people will disappear, and it can’t be stopped. In America, civil rights protests succeeded because the government is somewhat accountable. The same is not true in China. Sorry but it’s a lost cause.

If you disagree with someone, telling them “fuck you” is not only childish but a rule 2 violation. Edit your post before it’s reported and you potentially receive a warning. I’m extending you that courtesy.
#15029464
Bulaba Jones wrote:Again, the demonstrations will do nothing. HK will integrate, the CPC will open offices across HK, people will disappear, and it can’t be stopped. In America, civil rights protests succeeded because the government is somewhat accountable. The same is not true in China. Sorry but it’s a lost cause.

If you disagree with someone, telling them “fuck you” is not only childish but a rule 2 violation. Edit your post before it’s reported and you potentially receive a warning. I’m extending you that courtesy.


I regularly receive warnings, but it is my moral responsibility to denounce any immoral or false claims. Report me if you like, but your repetition of your defeatist and discouraging "view" is well beyond acceptable levels, and to me, you are committing serious insult on all of us.

"We are going to die" (fact) is definitely NOT "we should tie our hands and accept death" (your message)
#15029467
You’re free to say anything you want and disagree with anyone’s opinions but you do not have license to break forum rules. If you’re saying you’re aware that you do that and you intend to continue doing so, that’s both lacking in civility and intelligence, which I’m sure you possess. Edit your post, please.
#15029470
Patrickov wrote:I regularly receive warnings, but it is my moral responsibility to denounce any immoral or false claims. Report me if you like, but your repetition of your defeatist and discouraging "view" is well beyond acceptable levels, and to me, you are committing serious insult on all of us.

"We are going to die" (fact) is definitely NOT "we should tie our hands and accept death" (your message)


Good spirit but I suggest you prepare for an armed revolt rather than just some protests. Protests won't be enough and the protesters have demonstrated enough coordination to not completely fuck up an armed revolution (I wish Arabs had that).

It's necessary to remain realistic. BJ is right, negotiation with China is impossible so you should prepare for violence. If you know any arms manufacturers in China who support the protests know is a good time to list them and make them publicly known to protesters.
#15029491
Bulaba Jones wrote:There is a network of concentration camps in Xinjiang holding perhaps a million people. There are houses with QR codes the government scans to monitor them. Some households have government minders staying with them. In Tibet, banners of Xi are often behind bulletproof glass. If people talk or demonstrate, they can be swept up and their families might only hear something months after a conviction for whatever charge they want.

The problem with China’s response to HK is Xi Jinping. People around him might be able to convince him to be more subtle with HK, but the CPC is not going to reform in any meaningful way.

@Patrickov I'm not a Chinese citizen so it’s not my business to play hipster activist for a pointless cause in HK. HK is slated to integrate into the PRC in a few decades. At most, the protests can pressure Beijing to back off the extradition law, but in 30 years it literally won’t matter because by then, people can be legally arrested for saying what you’re saying.

You need to be realistic about the future.
_________________________________

Last year I moved into my first apartment in Shanghai and since I’m a foreigner I had to register with the police. Each area is served by a particular police station, so I waited around the neighborhood at the station until my apartment agent showed up to help me file the required paperwork. I wandered down the street a bit and noticed a few people standing around in front of a nearby building. More people started to gather. Someone pulled out a long banner with writing painted on it and a few people held it up. A bunch of them started bashing into the metal gate in front of the building, behind which a couple security guards tried to hold them off. The group of people broke in and the scene turned into one of a small crowd surrounding two or three security guards, all yelling and shouting with the broken gate behind them. I was snapping pictures, and then suddenly I thought about my situation: a white foreigner taking photos in front of a somewhat violent demonstration a block away from a police station, with Shanghai’s ever-present CCTV cameras everywhere watching, including that scene. The sense of panic was tremendous and I got the fuck away before any police showed up.


I do not believe in agency of people in 99.9% of the cases as i said. Xi has no agency in my opinion, he is merely an agent of the system as a whole. If the system as a whole has problems with change then it is in real trouble.

As for HK being destroyed, absorbed, assimilitated. Not necessarily. Estonia was in the Russian Empire more or less 300 years and we managed to survive with far less resources and people. Russian empire and USSR tried but we are free. Russians tried more severe means compared to what CCP is trying in all honesty.
#15029575
Xi isn’t all-powerful and has to carry the Party line, but he also has tremendous personal power that shouldn’t be understated. He got rid of all his enemies during his Anti-Corruption Campaign, and has stacked the Party leadership with people who are loyal to him. The previous president tried to maintain some influence, but Xi had that person’s supporters eliminated. Now, it’s not even wise to speak Hu’s name.

Xi wouldn’t last long if he, say, tried to reform the Party itself, but he does direct the system itself as much as he wants. There’s no one to challenge him, and even his move to essentially make himself dictator for life couldn’t be opposed. Make no mistake, he has actual power and within the framework of maintaining the Party’s monopoly on power, he can do almost anything he wants, if he wants, to whomever he wants.

HK won’t be completely assimilated and there will still be vestiges of its old culture and language, but most of it will be lost after a generation of being integrated.
#15029578
Bulaba Jones wrote:HK won’t be completely assimilated and there will still be vestiges of its old culture and language, but most of it will be lost after a generation of being integrated.


Highly doubtful. I know it seems so to a Mainlander living in China, but it is a fact that Cantonese Culture still totally dominates the Diaspora communities. So I doubt this "it will all be gone" theory is correct, Hong Kong culture is more famous overseas than ever before (even during the Bruce Lee phase). Most likely the current cultural situation will continue, but the leadership may change. I mean Hong Kongers are obviously going to protest hardcore in 2047 as well.
#15029596
Bulaba Jones wrote:Xi isn’t all-powerful and has to carry the Party line, but he also has tremendous personal power that shouldn’t be understated. He got rid of all his enemies during his Anti-Corruption Campaign, and has stacked the Party leadership with people who are loyal to him. The previous president tried to maintain some influence, but Xi had that person’s supporters eliminated. Now, it’s not even wise to speak Hu’s name.

Xi wouldn’t last long if he, say, tried to reform the Party itself, but he does direct the system itself as much as he wants. There’s no one to challenge him, and even his move to essentially make himself dictator for life couldn’t be opposed. Make no mistake, he has actual power and within the framework of maintaining the Party’s monopoly on power, he can do almost anything he wants, if he wants, to whomever he wants.

HK won’t be completely assimilated and there will still be vestiges of its old culture and language, but most of it will be lost after a generation of being integrated.



It just goes to show that the ideology is flawed. Communism never offered an answer to how those with the power would be accountable, since the theory was that there would be no need of government. In practice it fails as there has to be a state in a large complex society. Without an answer to how power is restrained, the system tends to absolutism.
#15029647






Bulaba Jones wrote:There is a network of concentration camps in Xinjiang holding perhaps a million people.


Are you referring to this?

Bulaba Jones wrote:If you disagree with someone, telling them “fuck you” is not only childish but a rule 2 violation.


Bulaba Jones wrote:You’re free to say anything you want and disagree with anyone’s opinions but you do not have license to break forum rules. If you’re saying you’re aware that you do that and you intend to continue doing so, that’s both lacking in civility and intelligence, which I’m sure you possess.


Really surprised this poster has been allowed to continue the shit he has directed at other posters, repeatedly. He's demanded I be banned a number of times for holding a view that's contrary to his own, but that part was mostly amusing for me.
#15029698
Hong Kong protests: What are the 'five demands'?

1 Full withdrawal of the extradition bill
The proposed extradition bill would have allowed for courts in other places, such as China and Taiwan, to ask for criminals to be handed over. The protests started over a general mistrust of the Chinese legal system.

Currently, the government has declared the bill “dead” and insists all work has stopped on the bill. But protesters demand the formal rules of withdrawing a bill be followed in the Legislative Council.


2 A commission of inquiry into alleged police brutality
On June 12, police dispersed protesters outside Legco with what protesters say is excessive force. They have criticised these actions ever since. Protesters also have little confidence in the current police watchdog, the Independent Police Complaints Council.


3 Retracting the classification of protesters as “rioters”
Shortly after June 12, when protesters surrounded Legco and forced the second reading of the fugitive bill to be stopped, Chief Executive Carrie Lam Cheng Yuet-ngor and Commissioner of Police Stephen Lo Wai-chung used the term "rioters" to describe protesters, which is a crime that can be punished by up to 10 years in prison.


4 Amnesty for arrested protesters
So far, more than 700 protesters have been arrested in connection with the anti-extradition bill protests so far, charged with crimes ranging from illegal assembly and assaulting police to rioting.


5 Dual universal suffrage, meaning for both the Legislative Council and the Chief Executive
At the moment, only half the seats in Legco - the body which makes the city's laws - are directly elected by voters. The Chief Executive is elected by a 1,200-member commitee considered to be mainly controlled by Beijing.
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