The Popular Vote... - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

All general discussion about politics that doesn't belong in any of the other forums.

Moderator: PoFo Political Circus Mods

By Rugoz
#15033888
BigSteve wrote:Who's throwing votes away?


In every winner-takes-all system votes are being thrown away, namely those for the loser. In you have single-member districts, there's no other option, but in the case of presidential elections the district is the entire US, and there's no convincing reason for states to throw votes away.

BigSteve wrote:Why on earth would a state like, say, Wyoming want to change the system?


Because Democratic states would it turn give electoral votes to the Republican candidate, according to his voting share.

BigSteve wrote:Conservatism has nothing to do with how our system was developed, and it's stupid of you to suggest that. If you want to see the system changed, change it. Roll up your sleeves and get ready for some hard work, though. Changing the Constitution ain't easy.


The fact that you defend a 200+ year old system makes you a conservative. That doesn't mean it's bad, but to say "it should remain that way because it has always been that way" is simply dumb.

Also, as you should know by now, I'm not American. Even if I were and would dedicate my life to change the system (I wouldn't), I almost certainly would not succeed.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034019
Rugoz wrote:The fact that you defend a 200+ year old system makes you a conservative. That doesn't mean it's bad, but to say "it should remain that way because it has always been that way" is simply dumb.


First, I'm defending the system because it works. It should remain the way it is for that reason, not because that's how it's always been.

Changing it for the sake of changing it is stupid...

Also, as you should know by now, I'm not American.


Which is why I don't really pay a lot of attention to your opinions of American politics...

Even if I were and would dedicate my life to change the system (I wouldn't), I almost certainly would not succeed.


You would fail because the system works as it is and doesn't need to be changed...
User avatar
By Rancid
#15034065
Pure democracy = Mob rule. Bad things can happen when a mob is calling the shots.

Anyway, you can think of the electoral system in the US like how Basketball does it's championship.

You have to win 4 out of 7 games. In this system, it is possible that the team that didn't win 4 games actually outscored the overall winning team on a points per game basis (one of the games was a blow out for example). That's kind of the idea of the electoral college. The electoral based system tries to find consistency across regions of voters.

Its about who gets voted more consistently, not who gets the absolute most. This has it's pros and cons, but that's how it is. Going by the popular vote only will also have it's pros and cons.

That said, things like gerrymandering totally fuck up and screw with that concept. Basically, the electoral system has been hacked with gerrymandering.

If the system were not hacked up, it would be very unlikely that someone wins the popular vote, but then loses the electoral vote. This is because the consistently better team, will very likely outscore the losing team consistently. Thus, the popular vote is a good barometer for what people are really thinking. Given how fucked up gerrymandering is these days, I would argue, that the popular vote better measures the will of the people.

If we can remove gerrymandering crazyness, then we could probably argue the electoral vote better reflects the will of the people. However, how to district different parts of the US is another difficult task as well. :hmm:
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034071
The only argument I could possibly see as valid (and I'm not even sure that I do) to ignore the electoral college is if a candidate gets at least 51% of the popular vote. In 2016, Clinton only got 48.2%, so even if I allowed for the 51% theory, it still wouldn't apply to her...
By Rugoz
#15034088
BigSteve wrote:First, I'm defending the system because it works. It should remain the way it is for that reason, not because that's how it's always been.

Changing it for the sake of changing it is stupid...


Clearly it doesn't work when people feel robbed of their votes. People like Crantag for example. I'm still wating for a single argument against such a change.

BigSteve wrote:Which is why I don't really pay a lot of attention to your opinions of American politics...


How mature of you.

BigSteve wrote:You would fail because the system works as it is and doesn't need to be changed...


It would fail because both parties would do the math and one would come out short, meaning said party would reject it because it is more interested in its short term success than the long-term well being of the country.

Rancid wrote:Pure democracy = Mob rule. Bad things can happen when a mob is calling the shots.


Wtf has that to do with anything? :knife:
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034103
The Electoral College is a very UNDemocratic part of the American system, and should probably be changed so that some votes are not worth more than others. Wasn't the reason the Americans revolted against the British because of lack of representation?

If the Electoral College worked against the Republicans, it would already be gone.
Last edited by Godstud on 16 Sep 2019 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034107
Godstud wrote:The Electoral College is a very UNDemocratic part of the American system, and should probably be changed so that some votes are not worth more than others. Wasn't the reason the Americans revolted against the British because of lack of representation?


I think it's cute how foreigners think they can intelligently opine on matters of American politics...

If the Electoral College worked against the Republicans, it would already be gone.


Of equal gravity is the fact that democrats didn't have a single problem with it until their would-be queen lost.

If it's such a horrible thing, and it the left is truly concerned with what's right and good, they should've said something before now. Identifying it as a problem only after Clinton lost reduces it to little more than whining from poor losers...
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034109
BigSteve wrote:I think it's cute how foreigners think they can intelligently opine on matters of American politics...
I think it's a really big diversion and dishonesty on your part, to think that we cannot. I suppose if you can't argue a point with any logic and reason, you just jump straight to the childish, "You don't live here, so you don't know!", argument, that seems so popular among Americans, these days.

Even Americans I am not the only one to think this...
Richard Dawkins: Electoral College Is Viciously, Unnecessarily Undemocratic
If you ever had any doubts about how preposterously undemocratic the electoral college is, your doubts could surely not have survived the 2000 looney-tunes show in Florida. Florida had 25 electoral college seats up for grabs. The popular vote was a dead heat. It couldn’t have fitted more snugly within the statistical margin of error if it had tried. The total vote in Florida was about 6 million, and the largest estimate of victory for either George Bush or Al Gore put the margin at a paltry few hundred. Yet the rules said that all 25 Electoral College votes must go to one candidate or the other. The final decision was effectively made by the Supreme Court halting the recount but, given such an exactly tied dead heat, they might as well have tossed a coin.
https://time.com/4354908/richard-dawkin ... l-college/
Last edited by Godstud on 16 Sep 2019 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034110
Godstud wrote:I think it's a really big diversion and dishonesty on your part, to think that we cannot. I suppose if you can't argue a point with any logic and reason, you just jump straight to the childish, "You don't live here, so you don't know!", argument, that seems so popular among Americans, these days.


I don't really care what you "think", but I think it's cute that you do...
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034111
If you don't care, then you should just stop posting on a political forum for adults. You are being unnecessarily childish, since you cannot defend your absurd and stupid arguments, except to say, "I don't care what you say!!!".

:knife:

Dumb, is what your lack of argument is. Dumb.

That's sad, because I don't actually think that you are.
#15034117
Godstud wrote:If you don't care, then you should just stop posting on a political forum for adults.


So, someone who doesn't give a shit about your opinion should stay off of political forums? My, but don't you have an over-inflated sense of self worth...

:lol:

You are being unnecessarily childish, since you cannot defend your absurd and stupid arguments, except to say, "I don't care what you say!!!".


Your opinion about what should and should not be done here is completely meaningless for the very simple reason that you will never live with any of the benefits or ramifications of what you suggest. It's akin to me saying "The mud huts made in Thailand should be made with cow shit instead of mud".

What the fuck do I care what they're made out of? You're the one who's gotta' live in it, not me.

Dumb, is what your lack of argument is. Dumb.


I will argue and debate, discuss and debate with those I deem to be not an utter waste of time.

Sorry, but you just didn't make the cut...
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034119
You have no argument, and so you go back to your standard, and very childish, bullying tactics.
:O

If you don't want to discuss and debate anything, go back to Facebook and fish for "likes". It seems more your speed.

Your argument in a nut-shell: "I don't care what you say,".

I think it is not because you are unwilling, but because you are incapable of making an argument. That's OK. I am sure others who will read this thread will come to the very same conclusions as I do.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034124
Godstud wrote:You have no argument, and so you go back to your standard, and very childish, bullying tactics.
:O


Image

Grow up. If you don't want to discuss and debate anything, go back to Facebook and fish for "likes". It seems more your speed, as an actual discussion seems beyond your capacity.


Again, you promote the idea that anyone who dismisses you is unworthy of being on a politics forum. That's rather egotistical. Actually, it's profoundly egotistical.

You should probably wrap your head around the fact that you're not as important as you think you are...

Your argument in a nut-shell: "I don't care what you say,".


I'll happily debate and discuss matters of American politics with anyone. However, the only people who I'll show any regard for are those who actually live here and live under the American political system. You're just not that guy...

:moron:


And you accuse me of being childish?
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034130
Do you have an argument, or is it more of this, "I don't care what you say.", crap? If not, my assertion that you are being childish in your argument, or lack thereof, is completely valid.

Again, where someone lives is not a valid argument, when discussing politics, which is evident on this forum.

BigSteve wrote:I'll happily debate and discuss matters of American politics with anyone.
No, That's a bare-faced lie, as this is exactly what you are not doing. Placing caveats only shows that you don't want to actually discuss anything(particularly something that you might not "win" at), as most people on this forum are not actually American(which is irrelevant to any actual argument).
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034133
Godstud wrote:Do you have an argument, or is it more of this, "I don't care what you say.", crap? If not, my assertion that you are being childish in your argument, or lack thereof, is completely valid.

Again, where someone lives is not a valid argument, when discussing politics, which is evident on this forum.

No, That's a bare-faced lie, as this is exactly what you are not doing. Placing caveats only shows that you don't want to actually discuss anything(particularly something that you might not "win" at), as most people on this forum are not actually American(which is irrelevant to any actual argument).


Wow, you really got your feewings hurt, huh?

LOL!

I know you "need" to have people care about what you say. I'm just not one of those people. Deal with it. There are other Americans here, and I'll give their opinions the regard they deserve on these types of topics. You live in fucking Thailand. Nothing you can say about the electoral college could be of any importance to me...
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034135
:lol:

Right, so you don't want to discuss your topic. You just want to grandstand and make an opinion, then not support it or defend it. That you think this is about feelings is very dishonest.


Why are you on a debate and discussion forum, again?

Again, location is irrelevant, and a childish diversion made by people who can't make valid arguments. Grow up.
User avatar
By BigSteve
#15034137
Godstud wrote::lol:

Right, so you don't want to discuss your topic. You just want to grandstand and make an opinion, then not support it or defend it.


Why are you on a debate and discussion forum, again?

Again, location is irrelevant, and a childish diversion made by people who can't make valid arguments. Grow up.


My topic was very succinct. It's you who wishes to take it down paths where it needn't go.

My point actually had little to do with the electoral college. It had to do with something said by someone a Helluva lot smarter than you regarding the determination of something being good or right simply because a majority of people think it is.

Evidently, you're ill-equipped to discuss that, so I'll leave you be. You're starting to get a tad emotional and that never works out well for you...
User avatar
By colliric
#15034140
The electoral college works as it should....

It's designed to force a change of Government every 8 years, and on the very rare occasion has that not happened.

Like once in my lifetime.

Who gives a shit about the popular vote. Your electoral college was not designed to reflect the popular vote but rather the will of the rather rebellious politicians that invented it. 8 years government.... Maximum (unless the Democrats put up a turd like Dukakis and self-immolate themselves).
User avatar
By Godstud
#15034141
BigSteve wrote:It had to do with something said by someone a Helluva lot smarter than you regarding the determination of something being good or right simply because a majority of people think it is.
You are not that person, and I already posted a person of intelligence who spoke out against the electoral college being extremely undemocratic, and that very much does have to do with the popular vote(definitely a related issue), and why it's not used.

BigSteve wrote:Evidently, you're ill-equipped to discuss that, so I'll leave you be. You're starting to get a tad emotional and that never works out well for you...
You are the one always talking about "I don't care...", which is talking about your feelings, not mine.

I presented an argument. That you choose not to engage it shows that you are either unwilling(because of your feelings, or you are incapable of it), or unable(I think it's this).

You'd be better to say, dishonestly, that it's off-topic and report me for that, than pretend it's anything other than your own tender feelings that seem to be hurt by someone trying to engage you in a discussion/debate.

Good day, anyways.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 17
The Irishman...

There's one opinion in this life which matters to[…]

EU-BREXIT

We can ignore your hypothetical voting patterns b[…]

The Next UK PM everybody...

Agreed that those are not aspects to celebrate. […]

Nobody actually thinks that's a joke coming from […]