EU-BREXIT - Page 239 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Political issues and parties in Europe's nation states, the E.U. & Russia.

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User avatar
By Seeker8
#15034285
Wow, so the the lib dems are idiotic, hypocitical and anti-democratic with their stances on the referendums(brexit and scottish indie),

https://wingsoverscotland.com/why-the-lib-dems-are-idiots/

but also more cruel and digusting to the vulnerable in our society than the tories!



Atlantis wrote:Boris Johnson taking flight in Luxembourg and some straight talking about Brexit from the Luxembourg PM:


Boris Johnson and Xavier Bettel press conference

Is Boris really the angry Hulk, or is he running away from the incredible Hulk?


User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034288
@Seeker8

United Kingdom (UK) total HMRC tax receipts from fiscal year 2000/01 to fiscal year 2018/19 (in billion GBP)

The reason why Boris is "turning on the taps" is because the UK gov is enjoying a bumper crop of tax revenues thanks to a booming economy. The UK can afford to dial back austerity now. After 2008 tax receipts dropped a lot which is why "austerity" was brought in back then.

You can see it all in the graph linked above.
Last edited by SolarCross on 16 Sep 2019 23:40, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15034289
Presvias wrote:Very well, what about the other similar claims in the article that sound super hyperbolic?

Which ones do you disagree with?

Presvias wrote:And although we've had no recession, our growth has massively lagged behind the rest of the EU
Https://fullfact.org/economy/uk-economy-slow-lane/

I wouldn't say massively, but as of 2019 this is no longer true anyway despite the UK having been in a state of uncertainty for three years now.

Presvias wrote:Not really.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/busi ... 75711.html

Somewhat different to companies deserting the UK, but regardless I can only laugh at this. Do you have any idea of the size of the UK finance industry? The people being moved constitute less than 1% of the total people employed and similarly the assets are a small fraction of the total.

Presvias wrote:The point has been disproven. And you implicitly concede such.

It was true at the time it was written and hardly anybody predicted the general slowdown that followed which also means that it cannot be predominantly attributed to Brexit.

Presvias wrote:EU growth has outpaced UK growth and I could show you a raft of other indices that really shred your comparison point. However, I'll await your reply first, because this is taking long enough to write as it is.

As above, this is no longer the case for the current year.

Presvias wrote:Can you show me Proof that the EU 'desires to economically annex' the UK?

I won't prove something I haven't claimed.

Presvias wrote:And what are your other good arguments? The soapbox is all yours. You have your chance to convince us to support No-Deal Brexit. Good luck (you'll need it..!).

The case for leaving the EU is quite simple. The EU is designed to absorb its members into an ever closer political union by creating a supranational structure whose institutions are by definition superior to those of the member states, exemplified today by the EC and the ECJ. It's an experiment that tries to peacefully unify an entire continent, consisting of a diverse set of nation states some of which have existed in their current form for centuries, into a single political entity, something which has never succeeded without violence and oppression. This is important to note because it means that the EU is the radical and risky proposition and those who oppose it are the moderates who just want the UK to be a normal nation state like the overwhelming majority of countries around the world. If a privileged trading relationship, which benefits both sides, is only possible via subordination to EU institutions it ought to be rejected, as the world has a perfectly good model to organise trade cooperation that doesn't involve being a member of what is committed to becoming a superstate. As such, joining the EU, and equally important signing up to later treaties without the consent of the public, was a historic mistake which has now simply been corrected. As for supporting "no deal", I know quite a few people in the UK who do support it now mainly because of what they consider the unwillingness of both, the EU and the previous UK government/pro-EU establishment in the UK, to properly terminate membership. If they are unable to negotiate a normal trade relationship, something which is eminently possible and exists around the world, then it has to be "no deal". So as far as I can tell, almost all leavers would prefer a cooperative relationship with the EU, but in the face of blatant obstruction they are prepared to just leave as well. It's the only sensible position in my view.

Presvias wrote:Really?! Then why is he supporting Boris when Boris has barely even been in Brussels trying to negotiate anything; when BJ clearly doesn't want a deal?

I have no reason to believe that Johnson doesn't want a deal as long as the terms are reasonable. As above, the only sensible position is to go ahead and just leave if that's not possible.

Presvias wrote:And why is he willing to support breaking the law to get no deal?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... s-49541942

That's not what he said. He wouldn't commit to it before he had seen the details of the legislation.

Presvias wrote:I really believe that, espesh when the whole quote actually says this...

So the statement is from 2012, and UKIP had actually changed its policy by 2014? Shocking. :lol: I still don't see the problem with this by the way. I believe that Switzerland's healthcare system works along those lines.

And since you seem to be unaware that politicians make u-turns all the time, let me present to you something truly outrageous. I recommend you watch some of the dozens of videos this Twitter account has compiled, starting with this:


Presvias wrote:LOL! Brilliant reimagining of what he said. Are you a lawyer?

You can be sure that people speculated in a similar way before the UK joined the EU and, in fact, in the run up to any major policy change.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034294
Presvias wrote:Yeah but that's one poll vs a longer term poll of several polls isn't it.

And even they're far from accurate.

Idk what the future holds, ultimately I want what's best for the country as long as it doesn't hurt others, and I figure that no deal Brexit doesn't just hurt us, it effects our Irish neighbours and possibly the French too, plus it'll have lesser effects on most other EU27 countries.

Then there's the Falklands to think of. The EU funds cleanup operations to keep the world's largest penguin colony from getting covered in oil and stuff like that. There's no way the govt are going to continue that according to all the noises they've made.

Think of the penguins. :)

Seriously though, this whole mess is completely contrived by the nasty party and their infighting. There is absolutely no need for any of this utter rubbish.

Whilst a communist society isn't my first choice, I fully respect their valid and insightful comments on this mess. The fact is that an outsider's perspective can often yield a much more unbiased and poignant critique than we can, when we're stuck in our ideological trenches.


Polls are just speculative forecast,there's nothing scientific about them, psephologist are always wrong, sometimes closer to the result than others, one might just as well read tea leaves as a source if insightful divination, if that's what you would call it & the only correct poll is the one on election day-after the occasional recount of course.

The 'nasty' party are not alone in their ideological infighting, the same was true of the Labour Party in 1974, when Harold WILSON only agreed to a referendum to 'unify' his party(an impossibility, if ever there was one).

WILSON also condemned HEATH for his failure to actually hold a referendum before our entry into the Common Market as it then was.

In fact, WILSON was using HEATH's decision as a figleaf over his own party's infighting on the issue & calling the 1975 referendum was the 'resolution' of that 'problem'.
A 'soft' deal on the Backstop, with a finite limit to it's duration,accompanied by expedited talks on the future relationship following a resolution of the W.A , would be beneficial all round.

There doesn't have to be a 'hard' border in Ireland for the purposes of either the Good Friday Agreement, or as a way of defining E.U-U.K borders.
It's purely an E.U administrative issue, when before A50 it wasn't, nor is it currently an issue till 31 October, any rational person would question why it should be an issue post 31 October, the only reason is E.U rules & yet the E.U are also bound by the Good Friday Agreement in international law.

It won't wash for the E.U to say that it's only the U.K's responsibility, because of the U.K invoking A50,their border will be defined by the U.K leaving,not by the U.K remaining & that is their equal responsibility.

PUTIN was right to tell the U.K to leave the E.U as a result of the referendum,that is the only logical course of action to take.


The London financial centre controls some 70% of the E.U's annual financial transactions, it is a world premier centre of financial knowledge without parallel, even New York would struggle to equal London's experience in global trading, underwriting etc.

There is no way that France could ever take significant business away from London,there are too many advantages to Londons reputation & european business would lose money from London's competitive edge.
Last edited by Nonsense on 17 Sep 2019 00:30, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15034295
Opinion polls are fine, just don't take any particular point estimate as gospel.

The reason for the differences between two groups of pollsters right now is how they weigh their data which also means that averaging is not particularly meaningful currently:

User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034297
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Opinion polls are fine, just don't take any particular point estimate as gospel.

The reason for the differences between two groups of pollsters right now is how they weigh their data which also means that averaging is not particularly meaningful currently:



True, I mean, they don't 'weigh' them on the same scales, or putting it another way, not comparing like with like.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15034300
SolarCross wrote:This is who Jo Swineson and the illib undems are loving right now. "Europe should be an empire!"

It begs the question:

LibDems have lost the plot. :lol:

Nonsense wrote:True, I mean, they don't 'weigh' them on the same scales, or putting it another way, not comparing like with like.

YouGov had an article a while ago explaining how the two different methodologies can produce very different results. It's not clear which one of the two will turn out to be correct, but for what it's worth here's how the pollsters have performed on average in past elections and the EU parliament elections:
Image
Image

**************************

Self-indulgent grandstanding, discourtesy and hubris by non-entities who would otherwise be lucky to be taken serious by a UK PM. That's sure to be going down well with the general public in the UK. Hopefully Remainers will defend this and perhaps even cheer it on.
By Rich
#15034360
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:The EU is designed to absorb its members into an ever closer political union by creating a supranational structure whose institutions are by definition superior to those of the member states, exemplified today by the EC and the ECJ.

The EU was not designed. That's a Brexit lie. It evolved through the input of many different people with hugely diverse agendas, notably including Margaret Thatcher.
User avatar
By ingliz
#15034379
SolarCross wrote:Florian Philippot

Vice President of the National Front from 2012 to 2017... that Florian Philippot?


:lol:
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034384
ingliz wrote:Vice President of the National Front from 2012 to 2017... that Florian Philippot?

If you say so, I have never heard of him. Vice Pres of the NF sounds fairly prominent or high profile though. Nobody ever remembers the name of rank and file politicians but party leaders even of minor parties have names people know. Swinson of the illib undems for example is more prominent than some no name tory or labour back bencher even if they are in a bigger party.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034386
Rich wrote:The EU was not designed. That's a Brexit lie. It evolved through the input of many different people with hugely diverse agendas, notably including Margaret Thatcher.



You appear to remarkably relaxed about calling people who have alternative views to your own as 'liars'.

Is that because you are seeking attention for just one more fallacious assertion of yours that has no substance?

The E.U is founded on the Treaty of Rome.
According to your assertion, it would seem that the Treaty appeared out of thin air like the Ten Commandments reputedly did with Moses on Mt Sinai.

The idea that it has 'evolved' through the input of certain people,blah,blah,blah, is purely incidental to any position these individuals hold\held in their respective national administrations, any input from them was not instrumental in how the E.U evolved.

Of far greater importance is the work of the E.U parliament itself.

The ambit of the original Treaty on which the union is founded, of "ever closer union", includes virtually all aspects of national life of each member country, excluding certain areas within their own competence, as set out in successive Treaties on the union.

To talk as though the ideas originate within the minds of certain individuals is hyperbole, Thatcher's 'input' as you put it, was minimal & negative.

She was what Brussels,like all elitist centralised power grabbing blocs hate the most, a 'boat rocker', they couldn't get rid of a handbag-swinging woman, so they gave into her demands for peace & quite.

Should this country ever be foolish enough to rejoin, those previously held benefits extracted through political pressure, will simply not be available again.
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034389
^ Rich is a stealth white nationalist. The EU is basically a wet dream for white nationalists. It is literally the fourth reich after all. They hope it will succeed where the third failed. Hence why Rich is choosing to die on the hill of Remaining.

User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034390
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:It begs the question:

LibDems have lost the plot. :lol:

They should henceforth be known as the Fib Dems, in my book. :)


Self-indulgent grandstanding, discourtesy and hubris by non-entities who would otherwise be lucky to be taken serious by a UK PM. That's sure to be going down well with the general public in the UK. Hopefully Remainers will defend this and perhaps even cheer it on.


If ever there was an example of an empty vessel making a lot of noise, it was that clown in his minute of 'fame'.
By Presvias
#15034405
SolarCross wrote:@Seeker8

United Kingdom (UK) total HMRC tax receipts from fiscal year 2000/01 to fiscal year 2018/19 (in billion GBP)

The reason why Boris is "turning on the taps" is because the UK gov is enjoying a bumper crop of tax revenues thanks to a booming economy. The UK can afford to dial back austerity now. After 2008 tax receipts dropped a lot which is why "austerity" was brought in back then.

You can see it all in the graph linked above.


According to the IMF, EU and IIRC the OECD; the excessive austerity that Osbourne introduced actually hurt the economy and contributed to the double dip we experienced. The economy was on track to improving just as Gordon (who I'm not a fan of by the way) left office; in fact the Labour plan, in 2010, of reducing the deficit would actually have reduced it faster than the Tories did in reality.

And you forget that Cameron, Osborne actually called for greater bank deregulation in 2007 anyway.

..But it's saying something when even nulab's economic plan was preferable to the tories'.

And BJ/Javid's lie about abandoning austerity will no doubt be exposed in due course.
By Presvias
#15034407
Nonsense wrote:Polls are just speculative forecast,there's nothing scientific about them, psephologist are always wrong, sometimes closer to the result than others, one might just as well read tea leaves as a source if insightful divination, if that's what you would call it & the only correct poll is the one on election day-after the occasional recount of course.

The 'nasty' party are not alone in their ideological infighting, the same was true of the Labour Party in 1974, when Harold WILSON only agreed to a referendum to 'unify' his party(an impossibility, if ever there was one).

WILSON also condemned HEATH for his failure to actually hold a referendum before our entry into the Common Market as it then was.

In fact, WILSON was using HEATH's decision as a figleaf over his own party's infighting on the issue & calling the 1975 referendum was the 'resolution' of that 'problem'.
A 'soft' deal on the Backstop, with a finite limit to it's duration,accompanied by expedited talks on the future relationship following a resolution of the W.A , would be beneficial all round.

There doesn't have to be a 'hard' border in Ireland for the purposes of either the Good Friday Agreement, or as a way of defining E.U-U.K borders.
It's purely an E.U administrative issue, when before A50 it wasn't, nor is it currently an issue till 31 October, any rational person would question why it should be an issue post 31 October, the only reason is E.U rules & yet the E.U are also bound by the Good Friday Agreement in international law.

It won't wash for the E.U to say that it's only the U.K's responsibility, because of the U.K invoking A50,their border will be defined by the U.K leaving,not by the U.K remaining & that is their equal responsibility.

PUTIN was right to tell the U.K to leave the E.U as a result of the referendum,that is the only logical course of action to take.


The London financial centre controls some 70% of the E.U's annual financial transactions, it is a world premier centre of financial knowledge without parallel, even New York would struggle to equal London's experience in global trading, underwriting etc.

There is no way that France could ever take significant business away from London,there are too many advantages to Londons reputation & european business would lose money from London's competitive edge.


Without passporting, it will make life very difficult for uk financial business to do business with EU associates.

Putin is generally wrong about everything, even when he's right.

The border is equally both parties' responsibilities.

True about labour's infighting, and it's still happening to some degree.

And you are of course correct about the deal you mentioned being the best all round. However, they're pissed off that May signed off on a deal that said 'no reopening for renegotiation', she simply shouldn't have accepted it without first getting parliament's approval.

She and Cameron have created a hostile atmosphere between us and the EU27 purely due to their own utter incompetence and stupidities. I hope cameron chokes on his cumberland sausage stew in his 10 grand designer shed.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034409
SolarCross wrote:^ Rich is a stealth white nationalist. The EU is basically a wet dream for white nationalists. It is literally the fourth reich after all. They hope it will succeed where the third failed. Hence why Rich is choosing to die on the hill of Remaining.




:lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034414


This how the EU nazis hide now, by calling anti-fascist parties like the Brexit party "far right". It is the same kind of double think they do in Orwell's 1984.
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