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User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034595
SolarCross wrote:https://twitter.com/tony_aitch/status/1174254482558992384/photo/1


Perv... :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034605
SolarCross wrote:https://twitter.com/AlFargo58/status/1173276724462850058



I will attempt to be cautiously neutral here, but a thought crosses my mind,that CORBYN is going to produce an election landslide....for the Tory Party. :eek:
User avatar
By Presvias
#15034606
SolarCross wrote:https://twitter.com/tony_aitch/status/1174254482558992384/photo/1


..Or twitter.


(Nope, don't support Swinson so that failed too).
User avatar
By SolarCross
#15034607
Nonsense wrote:I will attempt to be cautiously neutral here, but a thought crosses my mind,that CORBYN is going to produce an election landslide....for the Tory Party. :eek:


Yeah but it is not just Corbyn. Swinson getting the EU fuhrer over to start raving about why the EU must become an empire and centralise all the armed forces of europe was a shocking home goal. Literally everything the brexiteers have been warning about for years and the illib undems just put their face to it as collaborators. The illib undems are basically the fascist party now.

Boris only problem is the Brexit party but he eating them up too.

Image
User avatar
By Presvias
#15034609
Nonsense wrote:NO, i'm not calling for the complete suspension of democracy at all.

Suspending parliament is not suspending democracy.


Where did you get that from?

Rather, I would say that frustrating Brexit as is the deliberate act of the opposition in parliament, is the suspension of democracy, because it is thwarting the implementation of a democratic decision of the voters in the biggest democratic excercise held in the country.


The parliamentarians have the right to lobby against NDBrexit, just as Boris/Tories and the DUP have the right to argue for it.

I don't agree with Swinson, but that's democracy at work. You can't just suspend it when you disagree with someine.

Imagine if Tony Blair had the same idea Boris has?

The 1975 referendum produced a 17.37 MILLION votes to 'Remain', with some 8 MILLION for the 'Leave' side,democracy was respected in 1975.
That's the only difference now, as when approximately the same number vote to 'Leave' in 2016, the 'democratic' house falls down, because the inmates of the Westminster assylum, bend the house rules to suit their personal prejudices against the democratic interest of the country.


As they always do, this isn't much different to everything else they've done.

Best we have a ref on selling off the NHS to the americans, I guarantee that the majority will vote against it.

In terms of helping us, remember, parliament has used every occasion to vote in a way that denies a deal, or a 'no-deal', in order to stop the country leaving the E.U.


As frustrating as it all is, suspending democracy is what military juntas do.

Never can we imitate them. If we followed your suggestion there would undoubtedly be mass rioting and possibly worse.

Parliament has exhausted it's objective to stop us leaving on our own terms, leaving the only option left on the table, the so-called 'default' option, of leaving without any agreement, that is why it is reasonable to close parliament, in order that the referendum result can be implemented by the government on the terms set out in it's manifesto.
Once that act is complete, along with the 'Great Repeal Act', that is the repatriation of the legal system back to the U.K, along with a direct government - E.U arrangement to leave in an orderly way, then parliament can be allowed to resume it's functions until a new general election is called.


You do know that we need to pass loads of legislation to have any kind of deal, even after no deal Brexit? We need it open just to pass legislation to deal with day to day stuff.

Your idea is Boris's, Trump's and loads of other crooked 'dear leader's dream.

The idea of having 0 democratic oversight would allow them to completely abuse the system and do things like sell the NHS off to the americans. Is that what you want?

People like Patel and Truss are ultra libertarians, they don't even want a 'state' to speak of, and Cummings hates the civil service. If they could, they'd abolish it all.

Your apparent support of old laboury type values is in complete contradiction with a lot of the things that you say.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034624
[quote="Presvias"]Where did you get that from?

Nonsense-
If you thought the two were inseparable, they would have agreed a deal with the E.U before now, because they would have been fully committed to implement the referendum result, which they are not, you can't call an institution 'democratic', when it refutes what it's been told by the voter to do something & then refuses.
This is what makes the Supreme Court appeals so ridiculous,because the appellants reject the democratic decision & the original court decision.
They are bad losers, attempting to use the legal system as a proxy to overturn a political decision by the government, elected by the people.

The parliamentarians have the right to lobby against NDBrexit, just as Boris/Tories and the DUP have the right to argue for it.

Nonsense-

Parliament itself has already rejected No Deal 3 times, that does not specifically state that we cannot leave by the legal deadline of 31 Ocober 2019, that is the law within the Lisbon Treaty, under A50 & parliament cannot alter that unless a deal is agreed through parliament ratifying it.

I don't agree with Swinson, but that's democracy at work. You can't just suspend it when you disagree with someine.[/b

[b]Nonsense-

I'm not so sure that her fellow travellers in the Lib Dems would agree with her either.

Parliament is suspended for the conference season, which is normal, the proroguing is not for the conference season reason, it's to prepare for the Queen's Speech following the end of the conferences.

Imagine if Tony Blair had the same idea Boris has?

I can't imagine them as kindred spirits.



As they always do, this isn't much different to everything else they've done.

Nonsense-

Not sure what you are referring to there, but, politics being politics, anything goes.


Best we have a ref on selling off the NHS to the americans, I guarantee that the majority will vote against it.
Nonsense-

I would agree, but then, I am not too sure that many people would understand the extent to which the N.H.S has already been hollowed out by the private, for profit sector.
I can guarantee that most people would be shocked to know that much of the services provided within the grounds of their local DGH's, are 'outsourced' to the private sector,that many of the nurses that treat them are not directly employed by the NHS, but by those companies, as contracted by the Commisioning Groups.
If anyone ever thinks that it would different under any Labour government, then they are seriously deluded,because, it was Labour that initiated privatisation of the N.H.S through the PFI action & it's abandonment of CLAUSE 4 by Tony BLAIR.



[b]As frustrating as it all is, suspending democracy is what military juntas do.

Never can we imitate them. If we followed your suggestion there would undoubtedly be mass rioting and possibly worse.


Nonsense-
Of course it's what juntas do,it's what is known as a Khakistocracy, they do suspend parliaments at will, they are just not 'democracies' as we know it, just puppet parliaments that lose their way whenever a junta has it's attention elsewhere, the type of 'governments' that America supported in the 1950-60's in Latin America.
Be in no doubt that we could have riots in this country if we don't leave, I'm not saying that we will, but the possibility exist.



You do know that we need to pass loads of legislation to have any kind of deal, even after no deal Brexit? We need it open just to pass legislation to deal with day to day stuff.

Nonsense-

Not so much if a deal is made, more so if not, which is why parliament will be in session post 31 October, if not before.

Your idea is Boris's, Trump's and loads of other crooked 'dear leader's dream.

Nonsense-

You are entitled to your opinion, I couldn't possibly agree however.


The idea of having 0 democratic oversight would allow them to completely abuse the system and do things like sell the NHS off to the americans. Is that what you want?

[b]Nonsense-


I cannot agree, because I do not accept the premise,as parliament will have oversight due to it being in session.


People like Patel and Truss are ultra libertarians, they don't even want a 'state' to speak of, and Cummings hates the civil service. If they could, they'd abolish it all.

Nonsense
Well, that is the nature of libertarians, they embrace a smaller state, which, considering things in the round, is understandable, even if not shared in general.

Your apparent support of old laboury type values is in complete contradiction with a lot of the things that you say.[/quote]

Nonsense-

Any 'support' for Labour is,as you say, 'apparent', rather than real, I support social justice for people subjected to unequal treatment by the state,as engendered by ideological political parties that are adversarial against the interest of people not of their 'type',particularly when 'equality' should be equally enjoyed by all.

I don't see it as being 'contradictory' at all, we all have a set of values that we hold & think should apply in general.

I wouldn't pretend otherwise, our personal experience in life should be enough to give direction to our senses in terms of what is & what ought to be the norm.
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034625
SolarCross wrote:Yeah but it is not just Corbyn. Swinson getting the EU fuhrer over to start raving about why the EU must become an empire and centralise all the armed forces of europe was a shocking home goal. Literally everything the brexiteers have been warning about for years and the illib undems just put their face to it as collaborators. The illib undems are basically the fascist party now.

Boris only problem is the Brexit party but he eating them up too.

Image



If BoJo delivers us from the E.U clutches on 31 October, without a deal, then the Brexit Party will immediately dissolve itself, it is a 'single issue' party, with one objective, to leave the E.U without a deal.

Their supporters will then return to the fold of the Tory Party & Labour will then be subjected to internal ructions that will cost the dear in political terms.

Politics will probably re-polarise itself again after 31 October, along the usual lines, with the opposition parties being rendered impotent by our exit from europe, which can only benefit the Tories IMHO.
User avatar
By JohnRawls
#15034640
Nonsense wrote:If BoJo delivers us from the E.U clutches on 31 October, without a deal, then the Brexit Party will immediately dissolve itself, it is a 'single issue' party, with one objective, to leave the E.U without a deal.

Their supporters will then return to the fold of the Tory Party & Labour will then be subjected to internal ructions that will cost the dear in political terms.

Politics will probably re-polarise itself again after 31 October, along the usual lines, with the opposition parties being rendered impotent by our exit from europe, which can only benefit the Tories IMHO.


Yes, YES!! Then labour will finally taste the Gom Jabbar of the Tory Party!
User avatar
By Presvias
#15034676
Nonsense wrote:Pres:
Where did you get that from?

Nonsense-
If you thought the two were inseparable, they would have agreed a deal with the E.U before now, because they would have been fully committed to implement the referendum result, which they are not, you can't call an institution 'democratic', when it refutes what it's been told by the voter to do something & then refuses.
This is what makes the Supreme Court appeals so ridiculous,because the appellants reject the democratic decision & the original court decision.
They are bad losers, attempting to use the legal system as a proxy to overturn a political decision by the government, elected by the people.


No no no, Boris was not elected.

The parliamentarians have the right to lobby against NDBrexit, just as Boris/Tories and the DUP have the right to argue for it.

Nonsense-

Parliament itself has already rejected No Deal 3 times, that does not specifically state that we cannot leave by the legal deadline of 31 Ocober 2019, that is the law within the Lisbon Treaty, under A50 & parliament cannot alter that unless a deal is agreed through parliament ratifying it.


So go to Bruxelles and fucking talk to them, don't stand around like an obese snow monkey/hunchback webbed foot inbred prat 'pretending to negotiate' (Barnier's words). Him and so many who like him/support him have lost the plot worse than the 'illib undems'.

When will people understand that consensus and compromise = progress.

Bojo is nothing like Churchill, Churchill understood negotiation extremely well, he was a master of debate, charm and wit, even if he did have a lot of questionable views.

Bojo posesses not one of those qualities.

I don't agree with Swinson, but that's democracy at work. You can't just suspend it when you disagree with someine.

Nonsense-
I'm not so sure that her fellow travellers in the Lib Dems would agree with her either.

Parliament is suspended for the conference season, which is normal, the proroguing is not for the conference season reason, it's to prepare for the Queen's Speech following the end of the conferences.


Lol no, this length of suspension is nowhere near normal.

Imagine if Tony Blair had the same idea Boris has?

I can't imagine them as kindred spirits.


But the point stands, ie people expect bojo to do outrageous things; and they hold different politicians (like blair) to different standards.

As they always do, this isn't much different to everything else they've done.

Nonsense-

Not sure what you are referring to there, but, politics being politics, anything goes.


Politicians always pull shit like that. And peerless inbred numpties continuously fall for it.

Best we have a ref on selling off the NHS to the americans, I guarantee that the majority will vote against it.
Nonsense-

I would agree, but then, I am not too sure that many people would understand the extent to which the N.H.S has already been hollowed out by the private, for profit sector.
I can guarantee that most people would be shocked to know that much of the services provided within the grounds of their local DGH's, are 'outsourced' to the private sector,that many of the nurses that treat them are not directly employed by the NHS, but by those companies, as contracted by the Commisioning Groups.
If anyone ever thinks that it would different under any Labour government, then they are seriously deluded,because, it was Labour that initiated privatisation of the N.H.S through the PFI action & it's abandonment of CLAUSE 4 by Tony BLAIR.


Fair point, except Corbyn is a tad different to Blair.

Granted, he's very flawed but you know, no t blair.


[b]As frustrating as it all is, suspending democracy is what military juntas do.

Never can we imitate them. If we followed your suggestion there would undoubtedly be mass rioting and possibly worse.


Nonsense-
Of course it's what juntas do,it's what is known as a Khakistocracy, they do suspend parliaments at will, they are just not 'democracies' as we know it, just puppet parliaments that lose their way whenever a junta has it's attention elsewhere, the type of 'governments' that America supported in the 1950-60's in Latin America.
Be in no doubt that we could have riots in this country if we don't leave, I'm not saying that we will, but the possibility exist.


And we could have a birdscheissestocracy where Boris Karloff and Asian Nosferatu (Javid) and lord baldemort (D Cummings) totally asset strip the country. Hmm.

Kind of acting a bit Pinochet-ish, that Karloff bloke isn't he? Kind of fits the latin american thing you talked about except later on from the time period.

It's true we could have riots anyway, but that's why people like me (democrats) want the best deal ie the consensus of the country, so remainers and leavers don't go all frenetic.

You do know that we need to pass loads of legislation to have any kind of deal, even after no deal Brexit? We need it open just to pass legislation to deal with day to day stuff.

Nonsense-

Not so much if a deal is made, more so if not, which is why parliament will be in session post 31 October, if not before.


So that'll cost uk car manufacturers 50k a day while there's no deal in place, nevermind pasdported FS biz, or other biz, how long do you think it will take to finish passing legislation? Even if they started today, they probably wouldn't be close to finishing before 31st Oct. But you probably already knew that.

And if you suspended it til 2022 it might destroy the whole economy, because BJ is utterly guileless and incapable.

Your idea is Boris's, Trump's and loads of other crooked 'dear leader's dream.

Nonsense-

You are entitled to your opinion, I couldn't possibly agree however.


It's simply the truth; total exec privilege with no oversight.

The idea of having 0 democratic oversight would allow them to completely abuse the system and do things like sell the NHS off to the americans. Is that what you want?

[b]Nonsense-


I cannot agree, because I do not accept the premise,as parliament will have oversight due to it being in session.


No it wouldn't if you suspended it til 2022.

People like Patel and Truss are ultra libertarians, they don't even want a 'state' to speak of, and Cummings hates the civil service. If they could, they'd abolish it all.

Nonsense
Well, that is the nature of libertarians, they embrace a smaller state, which, considering things in the round, is understandable, even if not shared in general.


So you admit then, that suspending until 2022 is a bad idea, with folks like that around..?

Your apparent support of old laboury type values is in complete contradiction with a lot of the things that you say.


Nonsense-

Any 'support' for Labour is,as you say, 'apparent', rather than real, I support social justice for people subjected to unequal treatment by the state,as engendered by ideological political parties that are adversarial against the interest of people not of their 'type',particularly when 'equality' should be equally enjoyed by all.

I don't see it as being 'contradictory' at all, we all have a set of values that we hold & think should apply in general.

I wouldn't pretend otherwise, our personal experience in life should be enough to give direction to our senses in terms of what is & what ought to be the norm.[/quote][/quote]

Okay but IMHO, your own views and ideas are wholly irreconcilable with each other. Still, I've no bad wishes to you and naturally I hope you come to your senses.. ;)
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034697
[quote="Presvias"]No no no, Boris was not elected.

WRONG!

BoJo is both an elected Conservative MP, for Uxbridge & S'th Ruislip,he is elected as the Leader of that party for which the position of PM is integral to that leadership & that is the mandate to which he has inherited from Theresa MAY.


The Conservative Party was elected to be the government, democracy elects government's, not individual leaders, a government of any particular flavour is determined by the electorate, that is to say that the electorate gave the government a mandate to govern, irrespective of the current 'confidence' position in parliament, woe betide the opposition wreckers of that mandate to govern at the election to come.



So go to Bruxelles and fucking talk to them, don't stand around like an obese snow monkey/hunchback webbed foot inbred prat 'pretending to negotiate' (Barnier's words). Him and so many who like him/support him have lost the plot worse than the 'illib undems'.


Ok, quick translation required here, :lol: have you lost the plot?

When will people understand that consensus and compromise = progress.

Would that be a 'rake's' progress?


Bojo is nothing like Churchill, Churchill understood negotiation extremely well, he was a master of debate, charm and wit, even if he did have a lot of questionable views.

I don't know, cut-dye his(BoJo's) hair, put a cigar in his mouth, add Churchill's hat,with a walking stick,then, were you to meet him in the street, from whence in close proximity to him, he then proceeds to give you the customary 'two-fingers' & I am sure you wouldn't know the difference between him or Churchill. :lol: :lol:

Bojo posesses not one of those qualities.

Give him time,I'm sure that he will provide more leadership qualities than any of the current alternative offerings, or of his immediate predecessor.



Lol no, this length of suspension is nowhere near normal.

LOL, it's abnormally short-7 days,additionally,but separate to, are 3 weeks for conference season, with a further two for the parliamentary recess, don't listen to the perjurers in the Supreme Court with their lies that say anything different.


But the point stands, ie people expect bojo to do outrageous things; and they hold different politicians (like blair) to different standards.

You might be disappointed there somewhat, all P.M's have their personal defects of character, BoJo is acting in accordance with long established political standards, ask Michael HESTLETINE, he ought to know, just stay clear of the Mace when asking a pointed question.

I agree that people hold different politicians to different standards,they are, after all, just like the rest of us, with few exceptions, inconsistent,particularly on self-examination of their views.

Politicians always pull shit like that. And peerless inbred numpties continuously fall for it.

Which proves the exception to the rule, that like repels like, rather, small minds attract other small minds.



Fair point, except Corbyn is a tad different to Blair .
Agreed.

Granted, he's very flawed but you know, no t blair.

BLAIR is a publicly recognised 'BLIAR', but that is a pre-requisite to being a politician.

And we could have a birdscheissestocracy where Boris Karloff and Asian Nosferatu (Javid) and lord baldemort (D Cummings) totally asset strip the country. Hmm.

Just a minute, I will consult with my Google 'Translator', LOL.

Kind of acting a bit Pinochet-ish, that Karloff bloke isn't he? Kind of fits the latin american thing you talked about except later on from the time period.


That reminds me, I fancy a 'Chile', but not 'Con carne', seriously, he is a Leader my good man, be positive, give the 'poor' man some good cheer, praise him for once..praise be!

It's true we could have riots anyway, but that's why people like me (democrats) want the best deal ie the consensus of the country, so remainers and leavers don't go all frenetic.

Being a 'democrat', I am sure that you, like the majority of us in 1973-5, accepted the democratic decision with the usual British equanimity. :hmm:


So that'll cost uk car manufacturers 50k a day while there's no deal in place, nevermind pasdported FS biz, or other biz, how long do you think it will take to finish passing legislation? Even if they started today, they probably wouldn't be close to finishing before 31st Oct. But you probably already knew that.

Businesses have had 3 years in which to prepare for the inevitable, if it cost them, it's because it's their fault that they are unprepared.
The unravelling of the original Treaty of Rome, along with successive Treaty ammendments, bringing current Treaty related legal repatriation of legislation into British Statute, with many other similar actions could be done quite quickly.

That's because the measures required are already in preparation mode, ready for motions before the house of commons,in particular, one of the first effects will be to protect the rights of people under E.U aquis.

In any case, the reverse of propoguing parliament would happen, extending sessions until the necessary measures are agreed, which could be nodded through on a show of hands, because there would be no point in opposing them post 31 October, unless such MP's are intent on damaging the interest of the country, of whih they have already achieved extensively.

And if you suspended it til 2022 it might destroy the whole economy, because BJ is utterly guileless and incapable.

No need to suspend beyond 31 October, don't underestimate BoJo, his intelligence is deeper than his looks, as the saying goes,' don't judge a book by it's cover' & no the economy will not be destroyed.

It's simply the truth; total exec privilege with no oversight.

There will be time to scrutinise the proposed 'deal' if there is one,no guarantee's that it will pass muster in the Commons though, but then you 'knew' that already, didn't you?
User avatar
By Presvias
#15034800
Nonsense wrote:WRONG!


:moron: His govt wasn't elected with him as leader.

Recall this?

Image

Image

Ok, quick translation required here, :lol: have you lost the plot?



Never had it in the first place, that's why I type whole posts out in caps and wholly contradict myself. ;)

Would that be a 'rake's' progress?


Whatever it is, it's better than this.

I don't know, cut-dye his(BoJo's) hair, put a cigar in his mouth, add Churchill's hat,with a walking stick,then, were you to meet him in the street, from whence in close proximity to him, he then proceeds to give you the customary 'two-fingers' & I am sure you wouldn't know the difference between him or Churchill. :lol: :lol:


Don't think so, more likely he'd be politely told to 'please leave my town'. :)

Boris used an inverted, verbal two finger salute for the families of 7/7.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/16/boris-jo ... 70567/amp/

Let's not mention the horrible 'spaffed' quote. But hey, we're the ones who have lost the plot.

Give him time,I'm sure that he will provide more leadership qualities than any of the current alternative offerings, or of his immediate predecessor.


Incompetence, intransigence, impetuousness, guile, verbosity, imbecility?

Translation for you: Not good qualities in a leader.

LOL, it's abnormally short-7 days,additionally,but separate to, are 3 weeks for conference season, with a further two for the parliamentary recess, don't listen to the perjurers in the Supreme Court with their lies that say anything different.


Erm.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... -2019-0111



(shrugs)

You might be disappointed there somewhat, all P.M's have their personal defects of character, BoJo is acting in accordance with long established political standards, ask Michael HESTLETINE, he ought to know, just stay clear of the Mace when asking a pointed question.

I agree that people hold different politicians to different standards,they are, after all, just like the rest of us, with few exceptions, inconsistent,particularly on self-examination of their views.


Indeed. ;)

Which proves the exception to the rule, that like repels like, rather, small minds attract other small minds.


And such are amused by small things.

BLAIR is a publicly recognised 'BLIAR', but that is a pre-requisite to being a politician.


But you're saying Corbyn wouod pull a Blair.

Just a minute, I will consult with my Google 'Translator', LOL.


You were kindly provided with a translation in the post, but I suppose abstraction and guilelessness aren't best friends.

That reminds me, I fancy a 'Chile', but not 'Con carne', seriously, he is a Leader my good man, be positive, give the 'poor' man some good cheer, praise him for once..praise be!


He is your leader, not mine.

I'll settle for lard, spam and beans.

Being a 'democrat', I am sure that you, like the majority of us in 1973-5, accepted the democratic decision with the usual British equanimity. :hmm:


Anything that causes riots is not welcome, but hey I guess that's an unreasonable opinion now.

Businesses have had 3 years in which to prepare for the inevitable, if it cost them, it's because it's their fault that they are unprepared.


Yet we'll all suffer for it, but no deal is more important than our future.

The unravelling of the original Treaty of Rome, along with successive Treaty ammendments, bringing current Treaty related legal repatriation of legislation into British Statute, with many other similar actions could be done quite quickly.


What evidence have you got of this?

That's because the measures required are already in preparation mode, ready for motions before the house of commons,in particular, one of the first effects will be to protect the rights of people under E.U aquis.


And what makes you think they'll pass quickly..? The govt themselves doubt it'll pass quickly.

In any case, the reverse of propoguing parliament would happen, extending sessions until the necessary measures are agreed, which could be nodded through on a show of hands, because there would be no point in opposing them post 31 October, unless such MP's are intent on damaging the interest of the country, of whih they have already achieved extensively.


Do you honestly believe that? I think you do.

No need to suspend beyond 31 October, don't underestimate BoJo, his intelligence is deeper than his looks, as the saying goes,' don't judge a book by it's cover' & no the economy will not be destroyed.


....What?.....

You proposed suspending parliament til 2022.

It's impossible to debate someone who randomly shifts the terms of the debate, I have no idea what point you're making if you suddenly do that.

There will be time to scrutinise the proposed 'deal' if there is one,no guarantee's that it will pass muster in the Commons though, but then you 'knew' that already, didn't you?


Lol. After a disastrous NDBrexit has already happened.

What happens when no one agrees with selling off the NHS?

Oh yes...executive abuse, let's find a way around it, maybe a nice SI here or there!
User avatar
By Nonsense
#15034851
[quote="Presvias"]:moron: His govt wasn't elected with him as leader.

Recall this?


Image

Image

Nonsense- Irrelevant then, irrelevant now, it completely misses the point, that people elect government's, political parties elect their leaders.


Never had it in the first place, that's why I type whole posts out in caps and wholly contradict myself. ;)

Nonsense
- There you go, you get it wrong then you 'shout' about it.
Whatever it is, it's better than this.

Nonsense- Whatever.



Don't think so, more likely he'd be politely told to 'please leave my town'. :)

Nonsense- That's rich, typical Labourite values coming to the fore there, I seem to recall migrants voicing the same sentiment in another Labour town not so long ago towards indiginous people.

Boris used an inverted, verbal two finger salute for the families of 7/7.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/06/16/boris-jo ... 70567/amp/

Nonsense- That's a pretty disgusting accusation against BoJo, which is at odds with the article.

The fact is, they were an allegation, not statements of fact.

Secondly, the allegations stated, are at odds with another person present there, but which you chose, for some reason, to omit to mention. :hmm:

I am beginning to have my doubts about you.

But yesterday Mr Harri said of Mr Johnson’s remark: ‘I didn’t hear him say it. ‘It’s not the kind of thing he would say, so I think it’s extremely unlikely.’ The ex-communications boss has a different recollection of the conversation with Mr Coleman. Mr Harri said: ‘Brian’s own account acknowledges I told him at the time that I think he was mistaken.’


Let's not mention the horrible 'spaffed' quote. But hey, we're the ones who have lost the plot.

Dead Link, yawn!

Incompetence, intransigence, impetuousness, guile, verbosity, imbecility?

Translation for you: Not good qualities in a leader.

Nonsense-I can think of more complimentary examples.



Erm.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... -2019-0111

Nonsense-


There's good reasons for the extent of the recess,one of them being the length of the last session, the balance as in my post, all legitimate & 'legal'.

(shrugs)



Indeed. ;)



[b]And such are amused by small things.


[/b]

But you're saying Corbyn wouod pull a Blair.

Nonsense- Well, he uses any 'excuse' to thwart Brexit 'by any means', so, it's not beyond his capability.

You were kindly provided with a translation in the post, but I suppose abstraction and guilelessness aren't best friends.

Nonsense-
That must have been 'abstracted' from your urban dictionary for dyslexic chavs. :hmm:


He is your leader, not mine.


Nonsense- Wrong again. :lol:

I'll settle for lard, spam and beans.

Nonsense-

Yuk.

Anything that causes riots is not welcome, but hey I guess that's an unreasonable opinion now.

Nonsense-

Watch it, being cynical is an old man's disease. :lol: :lol:



Yet we'll all suffer for it, but no deal is more important than our future.

Nonsense-

Blame it on poor management then.

What evidence have you got of this?

Nonsense-

I wouldn't worry about evidence for it, it's all in hand, just a few loose ends to accommodate any 'deal' that BoJo may extract, or not, as the case may be.



And what makes you think they'll pass quickly..? The govt themselves doubt it'll pass quickly.

Nonsense-

Because it's in the interest of the country & jobs.

Any delays caused by the opposition would immediately reboiund on them, exposing them for what they are up to.

Do you honestly believe that? I think you do.

Nonsense-

Well, there workload has been rather light of late :lol: :lol: & a little self-discipline for the good of everyone else other than themselves wouldn't go amiss.

[b[....What?.....

You proposed suspending parliament til 2022.

It's impossible to debate someone who randomly shifts the terms of the debate, I have no idea what point you're making if you suddenly do that.
[/b]

Nonsense-
No, I didn't, I expressed an opinion, nonetheless, when trust in parliament has all but evaporated to the extent that the public, as well as the government no longer trust parliament to deliver Brexit.
It's then not unreasonable IMHO that an election could be had so that the public can deliver it's verdict on which MP's & political party are fit to serve as their representatives in that den of iniquities.
[/b]

Lol. After a disastrous NDBrexit has already happened.

Nonsense-

You are making premature judgements here, project fear has failed so far, the economy, despite a little rationalisation by business, is still fairly healthy considering the state of other E.U economies.

If things are supposedly 'bad' now, think how much better they could be in the not too distant future, once project fear is dead & buried.

What happens when no one agrees with selling off the NHS?

Nonsense-

Why would a Tory gov't or even business want it sold off?
It's not in their interest, they already make vast profits at the same time that the taxpayer is funding all the long term cost & overheads of the N.H.S.
User avatar
By Presvias
#15034863
Nonsense wrote:Irrelevant then, irrelevant now, it completely misses the point, that people elect government's, political parties elect their leaders.


No, people elect governments largely because of the party's leaders.

You're disputing a simple self evident truth.


There you go, you get it wrong then you 'shout' about it.


..Indeed ;))

Whatever.


You said something about chav diction to me..?



That's rich, typical Labourite values coming to the fore there, I seem to recall migrants voicing the same sentiment in another Labour town not so long ago towards indiginous people.


Ah you didn't get the reference then?

Enlighten yourself..



Nothing to do with 'indigenous' or non-indigenous folks, but I'm not sure why you even brung that up?

And yes I am a fan of old Attlee style values. That should have been implicit in my previous posts? It doesn't mean I'm an old labour zealot, or a massive Corbynhead though.


That's a pretty disgusting accusation against BoJo, which is at odds with the article.

The fact is, they were an allegation, not statements of fact.

Secondly, the allegations stated, are at odds with another person present there, but which you chose, for some reason, to omit to mention.

I am beginning to have my doubts about you.


Doubt away, the fact is that many nasty allegations have been made against him, and he's said loads of nasty things which have been proven too.

Even Rudd, my MP, said that he's basically a nasty piece of work.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Let's not mention the horrible 'spaffed' quote. But hey, we're the ones who have lost the plot.

Dead Link, yawn!


Oh you don't care about that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... k-47560192

I heard him say that on LBC.

It's detestable. Don't you agree?

Incompetence, intransigence, impetuousness, guile, verbosity, imbecility?

Translation for you: Not good qualities in a leader.

Nonsense-I can think of more complimentary examples.


False confidence, machiavelliany, bluster, charm (ok he does have a tiny bit) and a tiny bit of humour?

The last two 'qualities' are not enough to justify him.


Erm.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... -2019-0111

Nonsense-


There's good reasons for the extent of the recess,one of them being the length of the last session, the balance as in my post, all legitimate & 'legal'.


Nonsense.

(shrugs)

Indeed. ;)

And such are amused by small things.


But you're saying Corbyn would pull a Blair.

Nonsense- Well, he uses any 'excuse' to thwart Brexit 'by any means', so, it's not beyond his capability.


No he doesn't. He actually is still a secret Brexiteer IMHO, he just can't admit it to his party. It'd be the end of him.

You were kindly provided with a translation in the post, but I suppose abstraction and guilelessness aren't best friends.

Nonsense-
That must have been 'abstracted' from your urban dictionary for dyslexic chavs. :hmm:


(shrugs) If you say so, I didn't even know such words appeared in there. You obviously have more experience of it than me.

(since when are horror film actors & German words chav words :lol: ).

He is your leader, not mine.


Nonsense- Wrong again.


Not wrong, many folks will never accept him as PM.

Anything that causes riots is not welcome, but hey I guess that's an unreasonable opinion now.

Nonsense-

Watch it, being cynical is an old man's disease. :lol:


True. Yet, I'm probably still a billion times more cynical than you. :)

Yet we'll all suffer for it, but no deal is more important than our future.

Nonsense-

Blame it on poor management then.


Absolutely.

What evidence have you got of this?

Nonsense-

I wouldn't worry about evidence for it, it's all in hand, just a few loose ends to accommodate any 'deal' that BoJo may extract, or not, as the case may be.


You're undermining your own argument here IMHO.

And what makes you think they'll pass quickly..? The govt themselves doubt it'll pass quickly.

Nonsense-

Because it's in the interest of the country & jobs.

Any delays caused by the opposition would immediately reboiund on them, exposing them for what they are up to.


Oh gawd, this is wishful thinking taken to new heights.

Do you honestly believe that? I think you do.

Nonsense-

Well, there workload has been rather light of late :lol: & a little self-discipline for the good of everyone else other than themselves wouldn't go amiss.


I agree, but that's not how they work is it? Plus, those in glass houses... and the supporters who are often guilty of same.

What?.....

You proposed suspending parliament til 2022.

It's impossible to debate someone who randomly shifts the terms of the debate, I have no idea what point you're making if you suddenly do that.


Nonsense-
No, I didn't, I expressed an opinion, nonetheless, when trust in parliament has all but evaporated to the extent that the public, as well as the government no longer trust parliament to deliver Brexit.
It's then not unreasonable IMHO that an election could be had so that the public can deliver it's verdict on which MP's & political party are fit to serve as their representatives in that den of iniquities.
[/b]


But this whole debate is based on the premise of a 2022 suspension(!), you clearly knew that.

Lol. After a disastrous NDBrexit has already happened.

Nonsense-

You are making premature judgements here, project fear has failed so far, the economy, despite a little rationalisation by business, is still fairly healthy considering the state of other E.U economies.

If things are supposedly 'bad' now, think how much better they could be in the not too distant future, once project fear is dead & buried.


Show me proof that it'll be ok and that it's 'fairly healthy' compared to other EU economies currently?

What happens when no one agrees with selling off the NHS?

Nonsense-

Why would a Tory gov't or even business want it sold off?
It's not in their interest, they already make vast profits at the same time that the taxpayer is funding all the long term cost & overheads of the N.H.S.


Because it enriches certain individuals at the expense of country and party.

The Tories are already infighting.

And they've been hijacked by Lord Voldemort aka Dom Cummings, and Boris's merry horror film extremist cast.
User avatar
By Presvias
#15034864
Image

A childish but apt illustration of the 'merry'(!) bunch..

I'm sure any opposition or coalition govt would be so much worse than that bunch.......said no one ever, in this plane of reality.
User avatar
By Kaiserschmarrn
#15034873
Presvias wrote:All of them.

This is another good one: "The former Prime Minister also tried to claim the UK could manage its immigration policy while inside the EU. Why are 'Remain' campaigners insisting we start to control immigration in any Brexit deal then? Because we cannot control EU immigration now, proving Cameron was lying"

It would be helpful if you actually presented an argument or criticism rather than just copying a paragraph from the article. I would then be able to respond to you. So what's wrong with this and the other points you disagree with?

Presvias wrote:(shrugs) It seems you are not really aware of what's going on.

£1trillion is just the start, and I don't call 7k job losses….- just as the tip of the iceberg - trivial.

Re UK manufacturing, everything is looking worse. And other Brexit related company failures appear inevitable. "Only one in five companies ready for EU trade under no-deal Survey shows majority have not completed basic customs paperwork"

https://amp.ft.com/content/a064869a-d96 ... 216ebe1f17

"UK investment faces most sustained slump in 17 years thanks to Brexit uncertainty" British Chamber of Commerce.

Still feeling 'confident' about Brexit?

I'm certainly confident about Brexit. It's just a ludicrous idea that Britain must be part of the EU to thrive and cannot be a normal country. The assertion that I'm not really aware of what's going is a bit comical, considering you choose to ignore the global slowdown which can explain most of the data you posted (see FT article below) and that you wanted to sell a transfer of 0.5% of people employed in finance not only as a great calamity but also as proof that companies are deserting the UK. And of course, like all good remainers, when faced with facts to the contrary, you desperately claim that the real exodus and Armageddon just hasn't happened yet but surely must be just around the corner! It's going to be a great disappointment to you guys if reality catches up with you, despite all the attempts to will disaster into existence. As for productivity, your graph shows a picture that ranges from mixed to bad ever since the financial crisis, although productivity has been a weak spot of the UK relative to other industrialised countries for a long time anyway. I agree that the last government has been negligent and let UK companies down when it comes to preparations for Brexit and the uncertainty over Brexit plays a role for investment decisions. This is just more reason to get on with it and then leave as planned, much like Boris Johnson has suggested. That said, I had to chuckle at the suggestion that companies won't be able to fill out the necessary paperwork when it actually matters for their bottom line. Do you guys actually believe this stuff? :lol:
FT wrote:
Global manufacturing is experiencing its sharpest and most geographically widespread downturn in at least six years, as the US-China trade war weighs on factories around the world. The manufacturing slowdown is the main factor dragging on the global economy, fuelling fears that growth is stalling and ramping up pressure on governments and central banks to ready fresh stimulus efforts.

[...]

Image
The IHS indices for industrial goods, machinery and equipment and metals and mining were also well below the 50 level, meaning more executives reported their activity was contracting than those who said it was expanding. As a result, the overall IHS global manufacturing index remained below the 50 mark for the fourth consecutive month in August — the longest period in seven years.

[...]

Image
Although survey data can sometimes prove more volatile than hard economic data, the downward sentiment trend is reflected in output figures. In June — the latest month for which hard data are available on a comparable basis for most major economies — the number of countries reporting a contraction in manufacturing output outnumbered those reporting an expansion for the first time in five years.

[...]



Presvias wrote:But it can partially be attributed to it.

A small part, if any.

Presvias wrote:Does not matter, we should follow long term trends, not temporal rebounds.

It would be good then if you followed your own advice. The long-term trend suggests that we are looking at low growth in the developed world, and perhaps a recession soon. The EU, having had a recession in 2012/13 which Britain avoided, lagged behind the UK in the recovery and saw a rebound in 2017/18 similar to that in the UK in 2014/15. Since 2019 there is little difference.

Presvias wrote:Very well, please prove this then: "These are perfectly good arguments, although I agree that there are many more, starting with the question why the UK would want to remain in a union which seemingly desires to economically annex one of its constituent nations

You ought to familiarise yourself with the NI backstop which mandates that Northern Ireland stay in regulatory alignment with the EU's single market and customs union which means it will be forced to adopt all current and future EU rules and regulations that relate to either. It will also have no input whatsoever in the decision-making on those rules and will be subject to the ECJ with respect to them.

This should be viewed against the backdrop of an EU member state having until fairly recently laid claim to Northern Ireland. It isn't difficult to see why this arrangement appeals to the Republic of Ireland at this point in time, as it maintains the appearance of Ireland being at least an economic unit and prevents divergence which might in the future stand in the way of political unity. It is of course a bonus at this stage that this also ensures that the RoI doesn't have to incur the rather substantial costs of fiscal transfers, but more importantly of security in NI which the RoI wouldn't be able to provide, as it completely lacks the capacity to deal with the paramilitaries on both sides.

I hope you will not come back and naively claim that this is only an "insurance policy" and that the EU or the Republic of Ireland have any incentive to offer a relationship that allows for divergence in the future rather than insisting that whatever alternative arrangements the UK proposes aren't sufficient to replace the NI backstop. They can and will demand the status quo as the bare minimum. But it is not only that the NI backstop is a strategic folly, it is also utterly undemocratic as it imposes a regulatory regime that will change in the future on Northern Ireland without the people there having any say, and for that reason alone it should have been rejected from the outset.

Presvias wrote:Untrue. There are many unions...the US being one of them. It's quite successful from what people say.. Then there's the Russian Federation (despite Putin et al), unless you think it's better to have complete balkanisation and sectarian wars all over the world of course? The EU works well as a confederation with many unifying organisations. It's better than what came before. Is it perfect? No, but let's not hope for balkanisation and complete isolationism. There can be problems with 'annexation' (your phrase) and equally, its counterpart which is total isolation and protectionism; both are damaging.

No it's not radical or risky, it works as intended and as it was laid out originally. It works as expected from the first referendum. The full pamphlet explaining the EU was available in every newsagent, and a condensed pamphlet was sent to every home. The majority voted for it; almost as many as voted to leave in 2016, shy of about 30k.

So opt outs are just made up?

The blatant obstruction comes largely (but not entirely) from the UK side, when idiotic politicians play political football with NI.

The US was neither established nor united peacefully, never mind that its states hadn't existed for a long time either. The Russian Federation is an illustration of the opposite of unifying previously independent nations or regions. It is the descendant of the Russian Empire via the Soviet Union, neither of which was established peacefully, and it has lost territory since then. And of course, the idea to peacefully and willingly bring together in a political union so many nations with such different national identities, cultures, languages and historical experiences is not only the most radical experiment of our time but especially if we consider history it is a risky proposition. Note that that doesn't make it necessarily wrong or destined to fail, but it does mean that EU-proponents cannot claim the mantle of moderation. They are the ones who want to radically change the European continent and the relationship between European nations. They also know, at least if they have a modicum of historical literacy, that this involves grave risks, as it could lead to a violent breakup or require violence to keep the union together.

It's disingenuous to claim that the British people were ever on board with political unification. The idea that the opposition to the EU could be ignored and integration by stealth or over the head of the public's wishes proceed has brought the UK to this point. That so many people were aghast only shows the extraordinary self-delusion of the political class.

I will not respond to the lazy and flippant comments re opt-outs and obstructionism other than to say that opt-outs to not negate my points and the latter is a non-sequitur.

Presvias wrote:Of course he doesn't want a deal, he's barely spent any time in Brussels. He is backed by 8.6 billion hedge funders as skinster pointed out.

Of course he wants a deal on reasonable terms and he's spent as much time as is necessary in Brussels. I can just repeatedly assert something too.

Financial services are at this point unlikely to be tied up much in a potential future relationship with the EU, because as I mentioned the industry just isn't as vulnerable as you and many others want to believe. So hedge funders should be perfectly happy with a deal.

Presvias wrote:Proof?

It's in the article you quoted. Do you actually read what you cite in support for your argument?
But asked if the government would abide by this if it succeeded, Mr Gove said: "Let's see what the legislation says."


Presvias wrote:They believe the same nonsense, despite their lies about being new, all cuddly and old laboury.

So what? I don't support those guys and gals either. In fact, Chuka Ummuna is particularly bad.

If you are not prepared to defend remainers, why do you expect an explanation by brexiteers for an old Farage quote that wasn't even UKIP's policy at the time the article you quoted was written? In fact, the statements in the video are at least related to Brexit and recent, whereas Farage's statement is old and completely irrelevant in that context.

Presvias wrote:They're billionaires, crooks and philanderers who'd sell their own grandmas.

The banks which wrecked the financial system 10 years ago are on Remain's side, so your cause is illegitimate. That seems to be your pathetic argument.
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