Eric MORECOMBE ; "I'm playing all the 'right' notes,but, not necessarily in the 'right' order".
Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...
Moderator: PoFo Europe Mods
Nonsense wrote:I will attempt to be cautiously neutral here, but a thought crosses my mind,that CORBYN is going to produce an election landslide....for the Tory Party.
Nonsense wrote:NO, i'm not calling for the complete suspension of democracy at all.
Suspending parliament is not suspending democracy.
Rather, I would say that frustrating Brexit as is the deliberate act of the opposition in parliament, is the suspension of democracy, because it is thwarting the implementation of a democratic decision of the voters in the biggest democratic excercise held in the country.
The 1975 referendum produced a 17.37 MILLION votes to 'Remain', with some 8 MILLION for the 'Leave' side,democracy was respected in 1975.
That's the only difference now, as when approximately the same number vote to 'Leave' in 2016, the 'democratic' house falls down, because the inmates of the Westminster assylum, bend the house rules to suit their personal prejudices against the democratic interest of the country.
In terms of helping us, remember, parliament has used every occasion to vote in a way that denies a deal, or a 'no-deal', in order to stop the country leaving the E.U.
Parliament has exhausted it's objective to stop us leaving on our own terms, leaving the only option left on the table, the so-called 'default' option, of leaving without any agreement, that is why it is reasonable to close parliament, in order that the referendum result can be implemented by the government on the terms set out in it's manifesto.
Once that act is complete, along with the 'Great Repeal Act', that is the repatriation of the legal system back to the U.K, along with a direct government - E.U arrangement to leave in an orderly way, then parliament can be allowed to resume it's functions until a new general election is called.
SolarCross wrote:Yeah but it is not just Corbyn. Swinson getting the EU fuhrer over to start raving about why the EU must become an empire and centralise all the armed forces of europe was a shocking home goal. Literally everything the brexiteers have been warning about for years and the illib undems just put their face to it as collaborators. The illib undems are basically the fascist party now.
Boris only problem is the Brexit party but he eating them up too.
Nonsense wrote:If BoJo delivers us from the E.U clutches on 31 October, without a deal, then the Brexit Party will immediately dissolve itself, it is a 'single issue' party, with one objective, to leave the E.U without a deal.
Their supporters will then return to the fold of the Tory Party & Labour will then be subjected to internal ructions that will cost the dear in political terms.
Politics will probably re-polarise itself again after 31 October, along the usual lines, with the opposition parties being rendered impotent by our exit from europe, which can only benefit the Tories IMHO.
Where did you get that from?
If you thought the two were inseparable, they would have agreed a deal with the E.U before now, because they would have been fully committed to implement the referendum result, which they are not, you can't call an institution 'democratic', when it refutes what it's been told by the voter to do something & then refuses.
This is what makes the Supreme Court appeals so ridiculous,because the appellants reject the democratic decision & the original court decision.
They are bad losers, attempting to use the legal system as a proxy to overturn a political decision by the government, elected by the people.
The parliamentarians have the right to lobby against NDBrexit, just as Boris/Tories and the DUP have the right to argue for it.
Parliament itself has already rejected No Deal 3 times, that does not specifically state that we cannot leave by the legal deadline of 31 Ocober 2019, that is the law within the Lisbon Treaty, under A50 & parliament cannot alter that unless a deal is agreed through parliament ratifying it.
I don't agree with Swinson, but that's democracy at work. You can't just suspend it when you disagree with someine.
I'm not so sure that her fellow travellers in the Lib Dems would agree with her either.
Parliament is suspended for the conference season, which is normal, the proroguing is not for the conference season reason, it's to prepare for the Queen's Speech following the end of the conferences.
Imagine if Tony Blair had the same idea Boris has?
I can't imagine them as kindred spirits.
As they always do, this isn't much different to everything else they've done.
Not sure what you are referring to there, but, politics being politics, anything goes.
Best we have a ref on selling off the NHS to the americans, I guarantee that the majority will vote against it.
I would agree, but then, I am not too sure that many people would understand the extent to which the N.H.S has already been hollowed out by the private, for profit sector.
I can guarantee that most people would be shocked to know that much of the services provided within the grounds of their local DGH's, are 'outsourced' to the private sector,that many of the nurses that treat them are not directly employed by the NHS, but by those companies, as contracted by the Commisioning Groups.
If anyone ever thinks that it would different under any Labour government, then they are seriously deluded,because, it was Labour that initiated privatisation of the N.H.S through the PFI action & it's abandonment of CLAUSE 4 by Tony BLAIR.
[b]As frustrating as it all is, suspending democracy is what military juntas do.
Never can we imitate them. If we followed your suggestion there would undoubtedly be mass rioting and possibly worse.
Of course it's what juntas do,it's what is known as a Khakistocracy, they do suspend parliaments at will, they are just not 'democracies' as we know it, just puppet parliaments that lose their way whenever a junta has it's attention elsewhere, the type of 'governments' that America supported in the 1950-60's in Latin America.
Be in no doubt that we could have riots in this country if we don't leave, I'm not saying that we will, but the possibility exist.
You do know that we need to pass loads of legislation to have any kind of deal, even after no deal Brexit? We need it open just to pass legislation to deal with day to day stuff.
Not so much if a deal is made, more so if not, which is why parliament will be in session post 31 October, if not before.
Your idea is Boris's, Trump's and loads of other crooked 'dear leader's dream.
You are entitled to your opinion, I couldn't possibly agree however.
The idea of having 0 democratic oversight would allow them to completely abuse the system and do things like sell the NHS off to the americans. Is that what you want?
I cannot agree, because I do not accept the premise,as parliament will have oversight due to it being in session.
People like Patel and Truss are ultra libertarians, they don't even want a 'state' to speak of, and Cummings hates the civil service. If they could, they'd abolish it all.
Well, that is the nature of libertarians, they embrace a smaller state, which, considering things in the round, is understandable, even if not shared in general.
Your apparent support of old laboury type values is in complete contradiction with a lot of the things that you say.
Ok, quick translation required here, have you lost the plot?
Would that be a 'rake's' progress?
I don't know, cut-dye his(BoJo's) hair, put a cigar in his mouth, add Churchill's hat,with a walking stick,then, were you to meet him in the street, from whence in close proximity to him, he then proceeds to give you the customary 'two-fingers' & I am sure you wouldn't know the difference between him or Churchill.
Give him time,I'm sure that he will provide more leadership qualities than any of the current alternative offerings, or of his immediate predecessor.
LOL, it's abnormally short-7 days,additionally,but separate to, are 3 weeks for conference season, with a further two for the parliamentary recess, don't listen to the perjurers in the Supreme Court with their lies that say anything different.
You might be disappointed there somewhat, all P.M's have their personal defects of character, BoJo is acting in accordance with long established political standards, ask Michael HESTLETINE, he ought to know, just stay clear of the Mace when asking a pointed question.
I agree that people hold different politicians to different standards,they are, after all, just like the rest of us, with few exceptions, inconsistent,particularly on self-examination of their views.
Which proves the exception to the rule, that like repels like, rather, small minds attract other small minds.
BLAIR is a publicly recognised 'BLIAR', but that is a pre-requisite to being a politician.
Just a minute, I will consult with my Google 'Translator', LOL.
That reminds me, I fancy a 'Chile', but not 'Con carne', seriously, he is a Leader my good man, be positive, give the 'poor' man some good cheer, praise him for once..praise be!
Being a 'democrat', I am sure that you, like the majority of us in 1973-5, accepted the democratic decision with the usual British equanimity.
Businesses have had 3 years in which to prepare for the inevitable, if it cost them, it's because it's their fault that they are unprepared.
The unravelling of the original Treaty of Rome, along with successive Treaty ammendments, bringing current Treaty related legal repatriation of legislation into British Statute, with many other similar actions could be done quite quickly.
That's because the measures required are already in preparation mode, ready for motions before the house of commons,in particular, one of the first effects will be to protect the rights of people under E.U aquis.
In any case, the reverse of propoguing parliament would happen, extending sessions until the necessary measures are agreed, which could be nodded through on a show of hands, because there would be no point in opposing them post 31 October, unless such MP's are intent on damaging the interest of the country, of whih they have already achieved extensively.
No need to suspend beyond 31 October, don't underestimate BoJo, his intelligence is deeper than his looks, as the saying goes,' don't judge a book by it's cover' & no the economy will not be destroyed.
There will be time to scrutinise the proposed 'deal' if there is one,no guarantee's that it will pass muster in the Commons though, but then you 'knew' that already, didn't you?
Nonsense wrote:Irrelevant then, irrelevant now, it completely misses the point, that people elect government's, political parties elect their leaders.
There you go, you get it wrong then you 'shout' about it.
That's rich, typical Labourite values coming to the fore there, I seem to recall migrants voicing the same sentiment in another Labour town not so long ago towards indiginous people.
That's a pretty disgusting accusation against BoJo, which is at odds with the article.
The fact is, they were an allegation, not statements of fact.
Secondly, the allegations stated, are at odds with another person present there, but which you chose, for some reason, to omit to mention.
I am beginning to have my doubts about you.
Let's not mention the horrible 'spaffed' quote. But hey, we're the ones who have lost the plot.
Dead Link, yawn!
Incompetence, intransigence, impetuousness, guile, verbosity, imbecility?
Translation for you: Not good qualities in a leader.
Nonsense-I can think of more complimentary examples.
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... -2019-0111
There's good reasons for the extent of the recess,one of them being the length of the last session, the balance as in my post, all legitimate & 'legal'.
And such are amused by small things.
But you're saying Corbyn would pull a Blair.
Nonsense- Well, he uses any 'excuse' to thwart Brexit 'by any means', so, it's not beyond his capability.
You were kindly provided with a translation in the post, but I suppose abstraction and guilelessness aren't best friends.
That must have been 'abstracted' from your urban dictionary for dyslexic chavs.
He is your leader, not mine.
Nonsense- Wrong again.
Anything that causes riots is not welcome, but hey I guess that's an unreasonable opinion now.
Watch it, being cynical is an old man's disease.
Yet we'll all suffer for it, but no deal is more important than our future.
Blame it on poor management then.
What evidence have you got of this?
I wouldn't worry about evidence for it, it's all in hand, just a few loose ends to accommodate any 'deal' that BoJo may extract, or not, as the case may be.
And what makes you think they'll pass quickly..? The govt themselves doubt it'll pass quickly.
Because it's in the interest of the country & jobs.
Any delays caused by the opposition would immediately reboiund on them, exposing them for what they are up to.
Do you honestly believe that? I think you do.
Well, there workload has been rather light of late & a little self-discipline for the good of everyone else other than themselves wouldn't go amiss.
You proposed suspending parliament til 2022.
It's impossible to debate someone who randomly shifts the terms of the debate, I have no idea what point you're making if you suddenly do that.
No, I didn't, I expressed an opinion, nonetheless, when trust in parliament has all but evaporated to the extent that the public, as well as the government no longer trust parliament to deliver Brexit.
It's then not unreasonable IMHO that an election could be had so that the public can deliver it's verdict on which MP's & political party are fit to serve as their representatives in that den of iniquities.
Lol. After a disastrous NDBrexit has already happened.
You are making premature judgements here, project fear has failed so far, the economy, despite a little rationalisation by business, is still fairly healthy considering the state of other E.U economies.
If things are supposedly 'bad' now, think how much better they could be in the not too distant future, once project fear is dead & buried.
What happens when no one agrees with selling off the NHS?
Why would a Tory gov't or even business want it sold off?
It's not in their interest, they already make vast profits at the same time that the taxpayer is funding all the long term cost & overheads of the N.H.S.
Presvias wrote:All of them.
This is another good one: "The former Prime Minister also tried to claim the UK could manage its immigration policy while inside the EU. Why are 'Remain' campaigners insisting we start to control immigration in any Brexit deal then? Because we cannot control EU immigration now, proving Cameron was lying"
Presvias wrote:(shrugs) It seems you are not really aware of what's going on.
£1trillion is just the start, and I don't call 7k job losses….- just as the tip of the iceberg - trivial.
Re UK manufacturing, everything is looking worse. And other Brexit related company failures appear inevitable. "Only one in five companies ready for EU trade under no-deal Survey shows majority have not completed basic customs paperwork"
https://amp.ft.com/content/a064869a-d96 ... 216ebe1f17
"UK investment faces most sustained slump in 17 years thanks to Brexit uncertainty" British Chamber of Commerce.
Still feeling 'confident' about Brexit?
Global manufacturing is experiencing its sharpest and most geographically widespread downturn in at least six years, as the US-China trade war weighs on factories around the world. The manufacturing slowdown is the main factor dragging on the global economy, fuelling fears that growth is stalling and ramping up pressure on governments and central banks to ready fresh stimulus efforts.
The IHS indices for industrial goods, machinery and equipment and metals and mining were also well below the 50 level, meaning more executives reported their activity was contracting than those who said it was expanding. As a result, the overall IHS global manufacturing index remained below the 50 mark for the fourth consecutive month in August — the longest period in seven years.
Although survey data can sometimes prove more volatile than hard economic data, the downward sentiment trend is reflected in output figures. In June — the latest month for which hard data are available on a comparable basis for most major economies — the number of countries reporting a contraction in manufacturing output outnumbered those reporting an expansion for the first time in five years.
Presvias wrote:But it can partially be attributed to it.
Presvias wrote:Does not matter, we should follow long term trends, not temporal rebounds.
Presvias wrote:Very well, please prove this then: "These are perfectly good arguments, although I agree that there are many more, starting with the question why the UK would want to remain in a union which seemingly desires to economically annex one of its constituent nations
Presvias wrote:Untrue. There are many unions...the US being one of them. It's quite successful from what people say.. Then there's the Russian Federation (despite Putin et al), unless you think it's better to have complete balkanisation and sectarian wars all over the world of course? The EU works well as a confederation with many unifying organisations. It's better than what came before. Is it perfect? No, but let's not hope for balkanisation and complete isolationism. There can be problems with 'annexation' (your phrase) and equally, its counterpart which is total isolation and protectionism; both are damaging.
No it's not radical or risky, it works as intended and as it was laid out originally. It works as expected from the first referendum. The full pamphlet explaining the EU was available in every newsagent, and a condensed pamphlet was sent to every home. The majority voted for it; almost as many as voted to leave in 2016, shy of about 30k.
So opt outs are just made up?
The blatant obstruction comes largely (but not entirely) from the UK side, when idiotic politicians play political football with NI.
Presvias wrote:Of course he doesn't want a deal, he's barely spent any time in Brussels. He is backed by 8.6 billion hedge funders as skinster pointed out.
But asked if the government would abide by this if it succeeded, Mr Gove said: "Let's see what the legislation says."
Presvias wrote:They believe the same nonsense, despite their lies about being new, all cuddly and old laboury.
So what? I don't support those guys and gals either. In fact, Chuka Ummuna is particularly bad.
Presvias wrote:They're billionaires, crooks and philanderers who'd sell their own grandmas.
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